Tournament rules for edge camping (Serious discussion)

[-Jumpman-]

It's simple: let it happen. Only when it influences the game a lot, change it. Sounds simple right? That's because it is. It's ridiculous to propose rulesets based on speculation. Whether it is justified to change the rules is not an issue, and neither is ledge camping.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I hope this stupid stalling/standing near the ledge crap happends to all the non-believers it is insanely frustrating. Strict tried to do everything to get M2K out of that position. M2K was even doing it when he was 3 stock up on the last game. He already won I think...2 matches against him anyway?

inB4 new sheik mains arise because of this thread...

 

[Jonas]

this is also clearly stupid because those players are not high level if you're going to ban something, it has to be high level effective

oh look, shield grabbing is broken vs those who don't l cancel. ban it. that kind of logic is stupid and has no place itt imo

That was not at all the point I was trying to make. Exactly where did I say that I think planking should be banned?

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

this is also clearly stupid because those players are not high level if you're going to ban something, it has to be high level effective

oh look, shield grabbing is broken vs those who don't l cancel. ban it. that kind of logic is stupid and has no place itt imo

edit: actually fox infinites are pretty common on ps. but ill just leave it at that so you can ponder the hypocrisy

fox infinites on PS are definitely not "common" in top level tourney play.
what are you talking about.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

If you can ledge camp for 8 minutes in melee without dying, you deserve to win. You screw up once, your stock is gone.

P.S. Ban ganondorf.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Just because of M2K lately I'd say he is gonna get....top 3. I wanna see DrPeePee vs M2K so badly now. Because all these arguments are saying Eggm and Strict are bad..They are preegood.

 

[Lightsyde]

lol yea mango would be horrible at camping the ledge there's no chance for him to be good at it at all

Mango is almost definitely capable but I didn't even consider him doing this because it's just not something I can imagine him doing, or even needing to do. Mango and M2K, while both are extremely talented, are on opposite ends of the spectrum of playstyle as far as I'm concerned.

Also, if Sheik mains knew what it was like to have a projectile which can only be shot horizontally, they would probably have a much better understanding of how hard it really is to beat that strategy with a spacie, especially Falco. If you gave me lasers I could shoot diagonally, this would not be nearly the same kind of issue.

EDIT: Looool that PS argument is ridiculous. Because the transformations change, Fox infinites are impossible. Secondly, if you want to talk about even only stock long infinites, there are a million ways to avoid getting into; for example, DON'T GO DOWN THERE. Just wait for the stage to change.

With a planking Jiggs/Sheik on FD/BF/DL etc you're gonna be waiting a really long time. 7 minutes to be exact, and you still lose.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff when I get back from lunch.

 

[gm jack]

M2K plays the match up well, keeping to the parts of the stage that give him the greatest advantage.

I think the real question is why don't fox players jumps off stage more against sheik, away from the centre of the stage where he has the greatest advantage.

Oh wait...

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKEoMrT9T3A

damn guys peach is broken. better ban her too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1NfjkxsOhc&feature=fvwrel

damn fox is looking theoretically pretty broken here...


im concerned about the future of this game

 

[Kira-]

Mango is almost definitely capable but I didn't even consider him doing this because it's just not something I can imagine him doing, or even needing to do. Mango and M2K, while both are extremely talented, are on opposite ends of the spectrum of playstyle as far as I'm concerned.

Also, if Sheik mains knew what it was like to have a projectile which can only be shot horizontally, they would probably have a much better understanding of how hard it really is to beat that strategy with a spacie, especially Falco. If you gave me lasers I could shoot diagonally, this would not be nearly the same kind of issue.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff when I get back from lunch.

Sorry I have no idea what a horizontal projectile is, because there's no possible way that I could choose Falco and play him like I have every single day. Diagonal lazers lol, why don't we just give the spacies a knee and peach's dsmash and let you cancel shine with any move too. then the gaem would be fair I mean ledge camping is just SO GOOD that fox and falco need to be buffed for them to keep up

edge camping (serious discussion)

you're really good with falco btw, i saw your matches you look like you know a lot about the deficiencies of horizontal lasers

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

i agree. falco is definitely a ****ty character. absolute garbage, just grab ledge .

 

[Rob_Gambino]

http://www.youtube.com/user/flame6753#p/u/6/-yEQAQCDS6o

Last stock last match
/thread.

M2K is up 3 stock and still camps even though he doesn't need too.

2nd match, end of m2k's 2nd stock. M2K edgecamps and he doesn't even need to.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

match up chart updates needed....!!!

sheik falco is now 9-1 matchup with the discovery of this inescapable tactic of grabbing the edge

 

[Beat!]

Nah.

11-(-1)

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

ok.. so now that we've established that the only viable tourney characters are sheik and jiggs in this newly defined competitive climate, which player will emerge as pound 5 champion?

stay tuned.

 

[Metal Reeper]

ITT: People present an argument with evidence and backed up theory while the other side just shouts out numbers, biased opinions and tries to point out other characters and how they are broken when in all reality, they are not.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

ITT: People present an argument with evidence and backed up theory while the other side just shouts out numbers, biased opinions and tries to point out other characters and how they are broken when in all reality, they are not.

I did, I showed you an instance in your own evidence where edge camping didn't work so well.

I've done all of the above. Ganondorf's ledge game is broken. It's twice as easy as sheiks since there are less buttons to push. Once people get a grasp on this idea and start using it, ganondorf will win all the tournaments.

My opponent shouldn't use tactics that put my character at a disadvantage. They should play how I want them to. The evidence and logic presented are hilarious, which is why all this crap is being spit out.

 

[LatexRhombus]

this "argument" doesn't really require sides/evidence because the entire concept that "sheik standing near the edge being broken against spacies" is pretty ridiculous...and overly specific...

in fact, the only "evidence" that is put forth by either side is eggm losing to m2k...i'm sure there are about five thousand other videos of people losing to m2k while he plays "gay", but believe it or not, there are also videos of m2k losing or in eggm's videos, of him simply losing stock, thus it is not impossibly broken....

if the premise of this ban was to be carried out, as is, with no REAL evidence (videos of losing to players who are better than you being very circumstancial evidence, at best) the precedent that would set would pretty much justify the banning of every inconvenient situation any of us could possibly encounter in any character matchup.

yes, staying near the edge may be advantageous for sheik at the highest level, but fox certainly has certain potential advantages in that matchup as well...we can't just ban them

 

[Seikend]

Showing the flaws in the current system is great and all, but until someone provides a better alternative it's still the best option.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

ITT: People present an argument with evidence and backed up theory while the other side just shouts out numbers, biased opinions and tries to point out other characters and how they are broken when in all reality, they are not.

sometimes ridicule is the only way to make people understand how ridiculous they are being tbh

 

[Brightside6382]

so we should unban wobbling right?

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

should've never been banned in the first play.

 

[Brightside6382]

should've never been banned in the first play.

I know it shouldn't have. I just think the hypocrisy in the melee community is just hilarious.

 

[Lightsyde]

Sorry I have no idea what a horizontal projectile is, because there's no possible way that I could choose Falco and play him like I have every single day. Diagonal lazers lol, why don't we just give the spacies a knee and peach's dsmash and let you cancel shine with any move too. then the gaem would be fair I mean ledge camping is just SO GOOD that fox and falco need to be buffed for them to keep up

edge camping (serious discussion)

you're really good with falco btw, i saw your matches you look like you know a lot about the deficiencies of horizontal lasers

There are several short sighted, not even discussion based posts after yours but this is the main thing I'm talking about this thread being so frustrating.

I'm going to ignore that you are being blatantly disrespectful to me and continue trying to discuss this logically and I wish that you would swallow your pride long enough to afford me a similar kind of courtesy. Thanks.

I don't doubt that you are fully capable of playing Falco; for all I know your Falco is better than mine because you are better than me and that is not what I am arguing at all. Though, I do wish until you have played me in person and not seen sparse and outdated videos to not judge me as a player. I would not do that to you.

Falco's lasers are REALLY good. No one would ever dispute that. But his lasers and his overall design have a limitation that is not present in Sheik; his slow run speed, and more importantly, the strictly two dimensional dynamics of his laser game. Sheik's diagonal needles hit at an angle where she can safely stop a character or at least make it far more difficult to edge camp her. Falco cannot.

Falco needs no buffing, and no diagonal lasers. Any Falco main dreams of an Up B like Fox's, but they are not necessary components. I'm not really sure what the point of you actually dodging any real discussion was other than to make you feel superior because you are a more well known player, but I hope it worked for you.

I'm still waiting for a single real response to my initial post.

EDIT

this "argument" doesn't really require sides/evidence because the entire concept that "sheik standing near the edge being broken against spacies" is pretty ridiculous...and overly specific...

in fact, the only "evidence" that is put forth by either side is eggm losing to m2k...i'm sure there are about five thousand other videos of people losing to m2k while he plays "gay", but believe it or not, there are also videos of m2k losing or in eggm's videos, of him simply losing stock, thus it is not impossibly broken....

if the premise of this ban was to be carried out, as is, with no REAL evidence (videos of losing to players who are better than you being very circumstancial evidence, at best) the precedent that would set would pretty much justify the banning of every inconvenient situation any of us could possibly encounter in any character matchup.

yes, staying near the edge may be advantageous for sheik at the highest level, but fox certainly has certain potential advantages in that matchup as well...we can't just ban them

Have you even been reading this thread? It seems really unlikely. This is not about "staying near the edge". This is about growingly real possibility of characters flat out getting a lead and NEVER LEAVING IT due to certain physics and about the POSSIBLE impact it could have.

Eggm's video did a poor job of demonstrating his point; hence why I cited one specific stock in Game 3 vs StricNYN3 which you undoubtedly didn't watch because you were too busy being outraged to look at it from the other side's perspective which is what I have been trying to do. Again, this is not about M2K or Eggm in the slightest. This is about POSSIBLE concerns for the metagame, where both sides agree that no action needs to be taken yet.

What are you even talking about banning? The only thing anyone has suggested is a possible ledgegrab limit (which you would know if you had read my first post) or possibly a change in the timer (which for the record I think is a stupid idea).

Please get off your high horse long enough to prepare a real argument rather than being so derogatory.

 

[Pimpfish]

I have recieved a message from a prophet from the future. He chooses to remain anonymous. He has revealed to me all things worth knowing from now, until melee ends.

The Prophet has bestowed this info upon me and i quote:

You are wondering why i have come to you young one. You must let the SWF know of the coming danger. Melee has evolved so much since my birth. my time is short so i will be brief. melee is slowly morphing into a monster. A monster whos competitive depth is only as deep as my ex-wife, that ****ty slampig. melee is evolving into brawl. it has no combos. and camping is the only viable strategy. you must inform the Community before it is too late. Dont make the mistakes i made! tell my dad, mewtwo i love him.

please listen to this plea. brawl is gay. dont turn melee into brawl. we might aswell play brawl.

 

[DJRome]

i just don't see the need to be preemptive

 

[Lightsyde]

It's a discussion. No one is changing or has even proposed actively changing anything. You would think on a site compromised completely of words and images that people would learn to read.

 

[Pimpfish]

We should enforce one stock rulesets. because killing someone once then ledgestalling is the same as just having onestock each. sounds fair.

 

[Xianglian]

brawl is gay. dont turn melee into brawl. we might aswell play brawl.

Yes, we all know this. And I have to agree. So to the creator of this topic, let's just keep playing melee and the the gay players be gay. Learn to adapt or ragequit.

 

[LatexRhombus]

I'm still waiting for a single real response to my initial post.

EDIT



Have you even been reading this thread? It seems really unlikely. This is not about "staying near the edge". This is about growingly real possibility of characters flat out getting a lead and NEVER LEAVING IT due to certain physics and about the POSSIBLE impact it could have.

Eggm's video did a poor job of demonstrating his point; hence why I cited one specific stock in Game 3 vs StricNYN3 which you undoubtedly didn't watch because you were too busy being outraged to look at it from the other side's perspective which is what I have been trying to do. Again, this is not about M2K or Eggm in the slightest. This is about POSSIBLE concerns for the metagame, where both sides agree that no action needs to be taken yet.

What are you even talking about banning? The only thing anyone has suggested is a possible ledgegrab limit (which you would know if you had read my first post) or possibly a change in the timer (which for the record I think is a stupid idea).

Please get off your high horse long enough to prepare a real argument rather than being so derogatory.

lol as you said yourself, i wasnt replying to you kid, so i think you need to get off your little pony...and about me being outraged lollll im so outraged lolll wtf? seriously, that is a reflective of your own emotional overinvestment in swf threads...im just bored between classes, far from outraged lol

Secondly, i know its not about m2k or eggm and the person i was actually replying to (again, not you, you said nothing worth replying to previously) suggested that their argument had real evidence and i was merely pointing out that a match between m2k and eggm isnt real evidence, yes you posted another video, which again...who cares?

im aware action isnt going to be taken because this is a pointless topic at the present time to begin with...which im pretty sure i stated while not replying to you...but yea, i agree with you about the timer, in fact i agree with anyone who states that nothing needs to be done because this is presently irrelevant.

 

[DJRome]

strunk for the compose comprise win

in any case, the preemptive discussion seems useless. why spend time discussing something that is not an issue and won't be in the foreseeable future it's clear that people are just popping around ideas that can only be validated when the strategy becomes extant

 

[Kira-]

There are several short sighted, not even discussion based posts after yours but this is the main thing I'm talking about this thread being so frustrating.

I'm going to ignore that you are being blatantly disrespectful to me and continue trying to discuss this logically and I wish that you would swallow your pride long enough to afford me a similar kind of courtesy. Thanks.

I don't doubt that you are fully capable of playing Falco; for all I know your Falco is better than mine because you are better than me and that is not what I am arguing at all. Though, I do wish until you have played me in person and not seen sparse and outdated videos to not judge me as a player. I would not do that to you.

Falco's lasers are REALLY good. No one would ever dispute that. But his lasers and his overall design have a limitation that is not present in Sheik; his slow run speed, and more importantly, the strictly two dimensional dynamics of his laser game. Sheik's diagonal needles hit at an angle where she can safely stop a character or at least make it far more difficult to edge camp her. Falco cannot.

Falco needs no buffing, and no diagonal lasers. Any Falco main dreams of an Up B like Fox's, but they are not necessary components. I'm not really sure what the point of you actually dodging any real discussion was other than to make you feel superior because you are a more well known player, but I hope it worked for you.

I'm still waiting for a single real response to my initial post.

Firstly I'm sincerely sorry if you felt that I was abusing "fame", I hate when people do that and even though that was not my intention at all I apologize for it. It wasn't my intention at all because I doubt that half of the good players even know who I am, and if they do then they probably don't think I'm very good (and they would be right). I will say though, that lower level players' opinions on strategy are usually held in lower regard, since their knowledge of things is less complete than those who compete at the highest levels. That seems reasonable to me.

Secondly I saw videos from January of 2011, I don't believe your style would have changed dramatically since then.

Thirdly your point was never made clear. Is it that Fox and Falco have no answer to ledge camping? Is it that Sheik can deal with planking because of her needles? Is it that planking should be limited in some way?

Whatever your point was, in my opinion Eggm is simply complaining about a tactic that he deems unfair, when there is not nearly sufficient enough proof to make that claim.

 

[LatexRhombus]

Whatever your point was, in my opinion Eggm is simply complaining about a tactic that he deems unfair, when there is not nearly sufficient enough proof to make that claim.

bingo. and "unfair" is a long way from broken...

 

[Lightsyde]

lol as you said yourself, i wasnt replying to you kid, so i think you need to get off your little pony...and about me being outraged lollll im so outraged lolll wtf? seriously, that is a reflective of your own emotional overinvestment in swf threads...im just bored between classes, far from outraged lol

Secondly, i know its not about m2k or eggm and the person i was actually replying to (again, not you, you said nothing worth replying to previously) suggested that their argument had real evidence and i was merely pointing out that a match between m2k and eggm isnt real evidence, yes you posted another video, which again...who cares?

im aware action isnt going to be taken because this is a pointless topic at the present time to begin with...which im pretty sure i stated while not replying to you...but yea, i agree with you about the timer, in fact i agree with anyone who states that nothing needs to be done because this is presently irrelevant.

I'm a college graduate who is replying from their full time job during our periods of down time so let's leave the holier-than-thou connotation involved in calling someone "kid" out of this alright, "boy"?

I'm far from overinvested in this site but I do enjoy productive discussion/argument a good deal so this thread has been an interesting way to pass the time today.

Sorry, I got confused on this point. I should have realized that you weren't talking to me when you grouped us into white/black sides and then stated that we had no evidence just a few posts after mine. loool

Maybe this discussion is irrelevant to you but I've had this conversation numerous times in person or online with players who's opinions I respect. While this may seem like Eggm being salty to you, it's something that gets talked about but not really posted because the responses are not met with discussion, but blatant disrespect.

 

[Dark Hart]

Secondly I saw videos from January of 2011, I don't believe your style would have changed dramatically since then.

loooooooooool if you're referring to the crew battle videos XD

Whatever your point was, in my opinion Eggm is simply complaining about a tactic that he deems unfair, when there is not nearly sufficient enough proof to make that claim.

but I agree with this statement

 

[LatexRhombus]

I'm a college graduate who is replying from their full time job during our periods of down time so let's leave the holier-than-thou connotation involved in calling someone "kid" out of this alright, "boy"?
.

i'm a grad student...ex post facto, i too have graduated from college...

and i dont consider it disrespectful to mention that although this tactic is "gay" and people, including myself may not enjoy playing against it...it is kinda absurd at this point to request enforcing rules (banning although not directly stated, perhaps, would still be classified as a rule some people would try to enforce) to deter the usage of this technique when there is no hard evidence/widespread use to suggest it is anywhere near broken...

you can talk about it and discuss it with all the people you want...no 1 is going to do anything about it for a long time, if they ever even do

 

[Lightsyde]

Firstly I'm sincerely sorry if you felt that I was abusing "fame", I hate when people do that and even though that was not my intention at all I apologize for it. It wasn't my intention at all because I doubt that half of the good players even know who I am, and if they do then they probably don't think I'm very good (and they would be right). I will say though, that lower level players' opinions on strategy are usually held in lower regard, since their knowledge of things is less complete than those who compete at the highest levels. That seems reasonable to me.

Secondly I saw videos from January of 2011, I don't believe your style would have changed dramatically since then.

Thirdly your point was never made clear. Is it that Fox and Falco have no answer to ledge camping? Is it that Sheik can deal with planking because of her needles? Is it that planking should be limited in some way?

Whatever your point was, in my opinion Eggm is simply complaining about a tactic that he deems unfair, when there is not nearly sufficient enough proof to make that claim.

Awesome, a real post.

It is reasonable to assume since you do not know me that my knowledge is not complete, and it is not, though I do know a great deal more than my fame (or lack thereof might suggest). I talk Falco theory with my dear friend Kevin Nanney (PP) more than most, so while I am still not pro level, I get some of the best advice/insight available from a player I consider to be brilliant at the game. He is very quick to tell me if I am being dumb about something and that generally leads to more thinking and more experimenting on my part.

My Falco has actually changed a good bit within the last month as I have been training a good bit for Pound but I agree, probably not DRASTICALLY different.

EDIT: LOOOOOL if it was the Crew battle match vs LOZR. Everybody was SO trashed. I can barely even remember details about that night. haha

I made multiple points:

-Fox/Falco have answers to true edge planking but not even close to what I would call really good ones for the amount of risk vs reward that is involved.

-Sheik can deal with planking better because of her ability to throw needles diagonally, yes.

-I believe we should have a ledge grab rule because of what I have seen at tournaments and because I think it would prevent something like what we're talking about ever becoming an issue (BUT M2K, nor anyone else, has done anything to warrant this with their play thus far. M2K is SO good at what he does).

 

[AlcyoNite]

I don't care about anyone's feelings. It brings me pleasure to see efficient (so called "gay") tactics beat other characters. I like to see the fiery frustration in the eyes of my opponent.

I also enjoy the faith I have in this game's top players to overcome tactics that have previously beaten them.

So, for the preservation of the integrity of both my favorite game and its top players and for crystalnite's personal pleasure, let's not consider eggm's proposal to make it easier for him to beat m2k in a winning matchup preserve his own version of the ideal future smash community even though there is clearly no empirical evidence for such a drastic change in the metagame

 

[Lightsyde]

Theo soooooooo mad.

LOOOOL at calling an edge grab rule a drastic change in the metagame.

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't care about anyone's feelings. It brings me pleasure to see efficient (so called "gay") tactics beat other characters. I like to see the fiery frustration in the eyes of my opponent.

I also enjoy the faith I have in this game's top players to overcome tactics that have previously beaten them.

So, for the preservation of the integrity of both my favorite game and its top players and for crystalnite's personal pleasure, let's not consider eggm's proposal to make it easier for him to beat m2k in a winning matchup preserve his own version of the ideal future smash community even though there is clearly no empirical evidence for such a drastic change in the metagame

I love you, Theo