xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
u lucario... u can jab the little orbs...
tilts are good.. grenade when have the chance. stay to the ground.. thats my advice
tilts are good.. grenade when have the chance. stay to the ground.. thats my advice
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This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.
- Thread starter abit_rusty
- Start date
Shadow_of_Link
Smash Apprentice
I wish I could help, but I'm not very experienced with matchups or anything. It's kind of sad 
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
I know quite a bit about a lot of the matchups, just not lucario lol. Is there anyone that wants to keep this thread moving? (deciding what the next match-up is, writing summaries, etc)
I can do it if no one else will, but it won't be very helpful if the snake boards remain dead like they have been recently.
I can do it if no one else will, but it won't be very helpful if the snake boards remain dead like they have been recently.
ICE27
Smash Apprentice
Yes being a snake player i would agree to keep this matchup thread alive just pass the torch. Ken what do u think about my post about lucario?
Blad01
Smash Lord
Hello Snake mainers ^^
In Ganondorf forum, we are currently discuting Snake match-up. We are about to think that this match-up is closer than we initially thought.
Your participation would be appreciated, of course ^^ http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197545.
In Ganondorf forum, we are currently discuting Snake match-up. We are about to think that this match-up is closer than we initially thought.
Your participation would be appreciated, of course ^^ http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197545.
bman in 2288
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Messages
- 382
Low percents on both sides = forcepalm chaingrab. Also, Lucario needs aura power to hit Snake out of cypher. Otherwise, recover high, airdodge properly, and you'll hit the ground just fine.
Also, projectiles that go boom > Ganondorf, with lack of a good approach.
Also, projectiles that go boom > Ganondorf, with lack of a good approach.
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
you guys can go and write the matchup if you want, i know rusty irl so im gonna get in contact with him, im pretty sure id be able to get his password so pm me your guys writeup for matchups and ill put em in the front page
Toneh
Smash Lord
yea keep it going! Snake ftw
Hype
Smash Lord
just a suggestion, could you write the difficulty of a match up in a 5:5, 6:4 format. this way your opinions on the match up could be added to the character board specific match up chart.
SonicX580
Smash Lord
Wow thanks for the info really aprciate it.
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Hey, Rusty gave me his account info and the riens for this match-up thread so I'll be able to keep the first post up-to-date and keep the discussions moving weekly.
I'm super busy this week though, (I have two midterm projects and three midterm exams this week) so I won't be able to write a summary for Lucario till after that is done. If anyone would like to write it up before that they're more than welcome to and I will update the first post with it.
Also, abit_rusty requested that we discuss the DDD match up next. So feel free to start discussing it now. I'll have my input to add after this week is over and I have time to do it.
I'm super busy this week though, (I have two midterm projects and three midterm exams this week
) so I won't be able to write a summary for Lucario till after that is done. If anyone would like to write it up before that they're more than welcome to and I will update the first post with it. Also, abit_rusty requested that we discuss the DDD match up next. So feel free to start discussing it now. I'll have my input to add after this week is over and I have time to do it.
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
Alright, I have summed up the Lucario match-up and updated the thread with it. I mostly compiled it from responses and other threads I've read, as well as my own personal judgement. Please have a look, Snake Forum-goers, and give any feedback. I'll gladly and humbly appreciate it since I've fallen a good deal behind in the brawl scene, and I'll make any changes necessary.
Furthermore, we're doing Dedede next. So along with any critcism of the Lucario summary(which I hope will not span too many posts), let's get the ball rolling with D3 match-up info and inject some (constructive) life back into this forum
...also Ken_Neth (and maybe Hot_Arms) is probably going to facilitate most of this next dicussion. I'll just give it a push for good measure
Furthermore, we're doing Dedede next. So along with any critcism of the Lucario summary(which I hope will not span too many posts), let's get the ball rolling with D3 match-up info and inject some (constructive) life back into this forum
...also Ken_Neth (and maybe Hot_Arms) is probably going to facilitate most of this next dicussion. I'll just give it a push for good measure
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
I won't go too deep since I really don't have experience against good Dedede players, but I'll go ahead and post some of the fundamentals of this match-up.
Snake's advantages:
- Can reap good damage off of Dedede's recovery attempts.
- Can easily attach C4 to Dedede.
- Down throw puts Dedede in a very unfavorable position.
- Grenades and C4 have a easy time hitting his large frame.
- Can hold or drop grenades to protect himself against grabs.
Dedede's advantages:
- Can chain grab to a dtilt for impressive damage
- Is great at punishing Snake's recovery. The chain grab can easily get Snake off the stage to take advantage of this.
- Can juggle Snake around well.
- Dedede's Ftilt outranges all of Snake's ground attacks (correct me if I'm wrong)
- Forward B prevents Snake from easily camping.
I definitely think this match-up is in Dedede's favor. I'd say around 60-40 to 70-30.
Snake's advantages:
- Can reap good damage off of Dedede's recovery attempts.
- Can easily attach C4 to Dedede.
- Down throw puts Dedede in a very unfavorable position.
- Grenades and C4 have a easy time hitting his large frame.
- Can hold or drop grenades to protect himself against grabs.
Dedede's advantages:
- Can chain grab to a dtilt for impressive damage
- Is great at punishing Snake's recovery. The chain grab can easily get Snake off the stage to take advantage of this.
- Can juggle Snake around well.
- Dedede's Ftilt outranges all of Snake's ground attacks (correct me if I'm wrong)
- Forward B prevents Snake from easily camping.
I definitely think this match-up is in Dedede's favor. I'd say around 60-40 to 70-30.
I hate this match up...I usually counterpick DDD vs. other snakes lolz 
Nade spam like crazy. And have a good edge guarding game. Those are the snakes I've had probs with when I use DDD
Oh, we REALLY need to do Diddy. Its so ****ing hard when they know what they are doing with nanners..
Nade spam like crazy. And have a good edge guarding game. Those are the snakes I've had probs with when I use DDD
Oh, we REALLY need to do Diddy. Its so ****ing hard when they know what they are doing with nanners..
As a counterpick against lucario, could you add corneria? The stage makes it easy to kill verticaly and at the sides and the irregular ground can mess his forcepalm chaingrab and his aura sphere camping.
And I would ban jungle japes or luigi's mansion, he will take too long to get killed there
And I would ban jungle japes or luigi's mansion, he will take too long to get killed there
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
Okay, I added Corneria as a CP for Lucario.
Also, is there anyone with good experience against D3 that can give some input?
...and is Diddy really all that hard? From what I remember he's pretty darn weak, despite all the banana ****. I mean I guess it's not too late to change the matchup since we're not getting much of a response...
Also, is there anyone with good experience against D3 that can give some input?
...and is Diddy really all that hard? From what I remember he's pretty darn weak, despite all the banana ****. I mean I guess it's not too late to change the matchup since we're not getting much of a response...
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
I know the Diddy Snake matchup pretty well. The reason Diddy does so well vs Snake is because he rivals Snake's ground game. Fact- Snake controls the ground amazingly. Fact- Diddy controls the ground even better. Combined with Snake's poor manueverability and it's hard for Snake to do much. However, through use of smart banana play and spacing, Snake's Tilts (lol) come through and make the matchup about even, if not in Snake's favor IMO. Diddy dies pretty quickly, and Snake lives verrry long against Diddy. Most of the time even around the 200's. Snake's natural characteristics allow this matchup to be even, despite specific matchup characteristics.
If you want to beat Dedede with Snake you should always have a grenade ready to break you free of the CG. Dededes grab game is insane and CG deals too much dmg to easily. Or you can lay a mine - just have something ready to break free of his grabs asap. Always recover high. Dedede can float up but will be too slow to gimp you with his mighty fair.
On the ground you need to make full use of your range. Dededes ftilt has insane range but so does your ftilt. Avoid grabs and play defensively - that's your main tactic. Dedede has a lot of power overall but only utilt is fast and powerful enough to KO reliably. Keep your % low by playing patient and clever and you can win. Overall this is possibly Snakes hardest match-up...
On the ground you need to make full use of your range. Dededes ftilt has insane range but so does your ftilt. Avoid grabs and play defensively - that's your main tactic. Dedede has a lot of power overall but only utilt is fast and powerful enough to KO reliably. Keep your % low by playing patient and clever and you can win. Overall this is possibly Snakes hardest match-up...
misterpimp5757
Smash Ace
when i face a dedede i put a mine down in case of CG but they suck in the mine which is bad.
his recovery leaves him open when hes up. good to use a ftilt or just a uair....i always get a kill like that.
his recovery leaves him open when hes up. good to use a ftilt or just a uair....i always get a kill like that.
DDD Main here.
The BIGGEST reason why D3 has an advantage over Snake in this match-up is because not only does D3's chaingrab rack up huge huge damage, but it puts Snake in the absolute worst position for him to be - below the edge.
Also, If D3 is controller port 4, don't bother trying to escape. If he knows that you're mashing B to get out (Which doesn't work if the D3 CGs properly), he may purposely screw up his last CG in order to get in extra damage and lol as he watches you asplode yourself with a nade. This shouldn't happen often, though.
If D3 is in controller port 1, feel free to mash B, tho.
Besides the CG thing, Snake and D3 are even. Snake has an ungodly ground game which should hit D3 without problem do to his monster-size. He also has broken tilts with immense range, and explosive should put enormous pressure on D3 because D3 is so **** big. However, D3's ground game against Snake is solid as well - D3's grab range is huge and will put just as much pressure on Snake as Snake will put on D3; he'll *sometimes* be able to SG your Ftilt, or maybe run in and Dash-cancel SG if he's just out of reach. Ftilt outranges all of Snake's attacks and is very, very annoying (Albeit a little on the weak side), and his Utilt is second only to Snake's. In the event that D3 can't CG you, he can still deal huge damage with his Bthrow and Fthrow, which deal 16% (!) and 13% respectively, or he can put you in a bad position with his Uthrow.
Don't expect to see D3 pull out his smashes that often. Be aware of them tho - Usmash and Dsmash kill decently off the top, and Fsmash kills ****ing early and can will eat foolish cypher recoveries for breakfast.
D3's aerial game is good enough to be a terrible threat to Snake while he's on the cypher or in the air in general. The only thing D3 lacks is a spike. Also, if D3's bair is FRESH, it's just as deadly as his Utilt when it comes to killing.
I would say it's 6:4 D3's advantage. That's also what the D3 boards say. And speaking of the D3 boards, you could go to their match-up thread to see what they have to say about this match-up.
That's all coming from a D3 perspective. I won't say anything about Snake's perspective, since I don't play snake.
Also, lemme pipe in a few more things. Don't airdodge into D3, he'll just lol and grab you. Actually, when landing, don't land anywhere near D3. Pulling out a grenade can solve this problem. Also, avoid mortar-sliding too much - some D3s have conditioned themselves in to SGing Snake right out of mortar slide.
The BIGGEST reason why D3 has an advantage over Snake in this match-up is because not only does D3's chaingrab rack up huge huge damage, but it puts Snake in the absolute worst position for him to be - below the edge.
Also, If D3 is controller port 4, don't bother trying to escape. If he knows that you're mashing B to get out (Which doesn't work if the D3 CGs properly), he may purposely screw up his last CG in order to get in extra damage and lol as he watches you asplode yourself with a nade. This shouldn't happen often, though.
If D3 is in controller port 1, feel free to mash B, tho.
Besides the CG thing, Snake and D3 are even. Snake has an ungodly ground game which should hit D3 without problem do to his monster-size. He also has broken tilts with immense range, and explosive should put enormous pressure on D3 because D3 is so **** big. However, D3's ground game against Snake is solid as well - D3's grab range is huge and will put just as much pressure on Snake as Snake will put on D3; he'll *sometimes* be able to SG your Ftilt, or maybe run in and Dash-cancel SG if he's just out of reach. Ftilt outranges all of Snake's attacks and is very, very annoying (Albeit a little on the weak side), and his Utilt is second only to Snake's. In the event that D3 can't CG you, he can still deal huge damage with his Bthrow and Fthrow, which deal 16% (!) and 13% respectively, or he can put you in a bad position with his Uthrow.
Don't expect to see D3 pull out his smashes that often. Be aware of them tho - Usmash and Dsmash kill decently off the top, and Fsmash kills ****ing early and can will eat foolish cypher recoveries for breakfast.
D3's aerial game is good enough to be a terrible threat to Snake while he's on the cypher or in the air in general. The only thing D3 lacks is a spike. Also, if D3's bair is FRESH, it's just as deadly as his Utilt when it comes to killing.
I would say it's 6:4 D3's advantage. That's also what the D3 boards say. And speaking of the D3 boards, you could go to their match-up thread to see what they have to say about this match-up.
That's all coming from a D3 perspective. I won't say anything about Snake's perspective, since I don't play snake.
Also, lemme pipe in a few more things. Don't airdodge into D3, he'll just lol and grab you. Actually, when landing, don't land anywhere near D3. Pulling out a grenade can solve this problem. Also, avoid mortar-sliding too much - some D3s have conditioned themselves in to SGing Snake right out of mortar slide.
Karmacide
Smash Lord
D3 is hard to fight.
Against him I would pick either Yoshi's Island or Battlefield. Planting C4's and Throwing Grenades on top of the platforms seem to be really effective against him. Since he's so big, he can't run safely under them and trying to jump over them slows him down.
Also, for D3's that try to get cute and Regicide when you're near the edge, time a shield dropped grenade and roll back so that they eat the grenade instead of you on the way down. The eating animation will pretty much guarantee D3's death.
I have a lot of experience vs. Diddy.
The match is slightly in Snake's favor, but Diddy has quite a few tricks to give Snake headaches.
Recover HIGH on the Cypher. Diddy's got a really useful Spike and if he forward B's you while you are low on the Cypher and releases, you won't be able to use it again. Getting caught low by the Forward B makes C4 Recovery almost impossible because he can just hold on to you to drag you down so that you're too low to use it and then jump off of you at the last moment to recover himself.
Diddy is fierce once he begins to control the stage with the Bananas. The first thing Diddy is likely to do at the beginning of the match is pull out his bananas so throw a few grenades at him. The bananas will set off the grenades so he'll have to be careful not to throw them at the grenades.
If you can predict when Diddy will throw the banana, dash attack into him. You'll grab the banana out of the air.
If you get a hold of his bananas you can use them against him, but his fast dash attack makes it really easy for him to pick them back up again. I've had better results throwing them behind me so that I stand between Diddy and his bananas. He's much easier to deal with without those bananas and he'll try to get them back. Always assume that the Diddy player is better at using his bananas than you are.
Against him I would pick either Yoshi's Island or Battlefield. Planting C4's and Throwing Grenades on top of the platforms seem to be really effective against him. Since he's so big, he can't run safely under them and trying to jump over them slows him down.
Also, for D3's that try to get cute and Regicide when you're near the edge, time a shield dropped grenade and roll back so that they eat the grenade instead of you on the way down. The eating animation will pretty much guarantee D3's death.
I have a lot of experience vs. Diddy.
The match is slightly in Snake's favor, but Diddy has quite a few tricks to give Snake headaches.
Recover HIGH on the Cypher. Diddy's got a really useful Spike and if he forward B's you while you are low on the Cypher and releases, you won't be able to use it again. Getting caught low by the Forward B makes C4 Recovery almost impossible because he can just hold on to you to drag you down so that you're too low to use it and then jump off of you at the last moment to recover himself.
Diddy is fierce once he begins to control the stage with the Bananas. The first thing Diddy is likely to do at the beginning of the match is pull out his bananas so throw a few grenades at him. The bananas will set off the grenades so he'll have to be careful not to throw them at the grenades.
If you can predict when Diddy will throw the banana, dash attack into him. You'll grab the banana out of the air.
If you get a hold of his bananas you can use them against him, but his fast dash attack makes it really easy for him to pick them back up again. I've had better results throwing them behind me so that I stand between Diddy and his bananas. He's much easier to deal with without those bananas and he'll try to get them back. Always assume that the Diddy player is better at using his bananas than you are.
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
DDD is one of Snake's hardest match-ups in my opinion.
It's better to play defensively. Stay away and throw grenades. If the DDD begins to camp you back you can easily out camp him with grenades. The DDD I played knew the timing for grenades exploding and would just shield accordingly when I threw a cooked grenade. So what I began to do was to throw an uncooked grenade at him right as he was throwing a waddle. He would get 3% each time while I could just shield the waddle. This stopped his camping and forced him to approach me.
Avoid his grab!! His chaingrab racks up a lot of damage. Here are some things that I've noticed that always got me grabbed.
1.Never do your second f-tilt if your first one hits his shield. The lag is enough for him to get a free chaingrab. The same applies to jabbing. Don't do the next part of the jab if you hit his shield. Also, u-tilt has enough lag to be grabbed after, so I avoided using it until I knew it would hit, or he was in the air and wouldn't be able to grab me because of the lag.
2. Don't snake dash a lot. They can shield grab you out of it, or just shield and dash-grab you as you slide through him.
3. The obvious stuff, don't do laggy aerials. d-air, single jump n-air, etc.
Avoiding a grab the entire match vs DDD is practically impossible, so keep grenades on the floor to disrupt it if he grabs you. One thing the DDD that I played did a lot was chaingrab me to the edge of the stage and then just grab-attack until I broke out. Unless you get the jump-breakout (anyone know how to do this every time?!?), this puts you in a very bad position. Don't jump towards the stage immediately because the DDD will just d-smash you. You want to jump away from the stage and cypher almost immediately to get up as high as you can.
Another thing you can do in this situation is if you know the DDD is going to jump out and try to predict your jump with a f-air is to delay your jump until after he's done the f-air and then jump up behind him. This will give him a free b-air, but at least it hits you back onto the stage.
N-air ***** DDD in the air.
If DDD runs out of jumps and is forced to use his up-b to recover you have a lot of options. Once he starts his up-b he cannot change the trajectory of it and it is extremely punishable.
1 If he is going straight for the edge all you have to do is edge-hog him. Make sure to time the edge-hog so that your invincible. While it is true that DDD has to cancel his up-b to grab the ledge, he may see the hopelessness of grabbing the ledge and then he won't cancel it and hope that his up-b will take you with him.
2 When he is landing on the stage shield until he lands and then full jump d-air. This usually kills him if he had enough damage to be knocked far enough to need his up-b. Another option after shielding his landing is to just f-tilt or u-tilt.
3 He can be knocked out of his up-b at the very top. Jump up and n-air him or b-air him at the peak of his up-b.
I might add more later.
It's better to play defensively. Stay away and throw grenades. If the DDD begins to camp you back you can easily out camp him with grenades. The DDD I played knew the timing for grenades exploding and would just shield accordingly when I threw a cooked grenade. So what I began to do was to throw an uncooked grenade at him right as he was throwing a waddle. He would get 3% each time while I could just shield the waddle. This stopped his camping and forced him to approach me.
Avoid his grab!! His chaingrab racks up a lot of damage. Here are some things that I've noticed that always got me grabbed.
1.Never do your second f-tilt if your first one hits his shield. The lag is enough for him to get a free chaingrab. The same applies to jabbing. Don't do the next part of the jab if you hit his shield. Also, u-tilt has enough lag to be grabbed after, so I avoided using it until I knew it would hit, or he was in the air and wouldn't be able to grab me because of the lag.
2. Don't snake dash a lot. They can shield grab you out of it, or just shield and dash-grab you as you slide through him.
3. The obvious stuff, don't do laggy aerials. d-air, single jump n-air, etc.
Avoiding a grab the entire match vs DDD is practically impossible, so keep grenades on the floor to disrupt it if he grabs you. One thing the DDD that I played did a lot was chaingrab me to the edge of the stage and then just grab-attack until I broke out. Unless you get the jump-breakout (anyone know how to do this every time?!?), this puts you in a very bad position. Don't jump towards the stage immediately because the DDD will just d-smash you. You want to jump away from the stage and cypher almost immediately to get up as high as you can.
Another thing you can do in this situation is if you know the DDD is going to jump out and try to predict your jump with a f-air is to delay your jump until after he's done the f-air and then jump up behind him. This will give him a free b-air, but at least it hits you back onto the stage.
N-air ***** DDD in the air.
If DDD runs out of jumps and is forced to use his up-b to recover you have a lot of options. Once he starts his up-b he cannot change the trajectory of it and it is extremely punishable.
1 If he is going straight for the edge all you have to do is edge-hog him. Make sure to time the edge-hog so that your invincible. While it is true that DDD has to cancel his up-b to grab the ledge, he may see the hopelessness of grabbing the ledge and then he won't cancel it and hope that his up-b will take you with him.
2 When he is landing on the stage shield until he lands and then full jump d-air. This usually kills him if he had enough damage to be knocked far enough to need his up-b. Another option after shielding his landing is to just f-tilt or u-tilt.
3 He can be knocked out of his up-b at the very top. Jump up and n-air him or b-air him at the peak of his up-b.
I might add more later.
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
As an edgeguarding method, would cyphering up and dropping a C4 to intercept him as he comes down from his up+b, be viable? Or I suppose you could predict his trajectory and plant a C4 on the ground, and if he sees this and tries to cancel early to DI and land somewhere else, you could follow and grab.
sounds like what most snakes do to retarted fox/falco/wolfs that dont know how to hit the edge with their up or side b's lolololololololol
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
Not sure if you're demeaning this method or not but it actually works well against DK's tough to block up+b. (Which cancels out mortar).sounds like what most snakes do to retarted fox/falco/wolfs that dont know how to hit the edge with their up or side b's lolololololololol
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
works against mk too thats just hovering towards the bottom of the stage waiting to up b
no I'm being serious. Its something I do quite often actually.
c4 is a suprisingly good way to edge guard by dropping it off stage. Most dont see it coming till it hits them and if yur lucky you might get some kinda stage spike or gimp
Ken Neth
Smash Champion
Is there anything else that we haven't covered in the match-up, or does anyone else have anything to add?
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
I'd say Dedede is pretty much wrapped up.
As for the numbers, I'd say anywhere from 60:40 to 70-30 Dedede.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Hey the Pits are debating Snake. And they say that they counter him.
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
im an aggressive snake so i get pwned by ddd's
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Lol did you talk about D3's Waddle Dees? They're ****ing annoying. If he pulls out the electric one. He's gonna keep him out, just to annoy you. D3 might also pick up his Waddle Dees from ground for a quick, unexpected projectile. Anyway, discuss WD's more!
abit_rusty
Smash Lord
I've always wondered if hitting waddles diminishes your attacks. I would assume so...