The Unofficial Offical MLG Ruleset Discussion

[SGF rocker]

What exactly is the MK planking rule for MLG and the stalling rule(can he go under the stage)???

 

[1048576]

plank to your heart's content as long as you don't hit 35 grabs. So basically you can stall under the stage for 5 seconds, then side-b back to whatever side the opponent isn't guarding. You can still get 3 minutes out of your planking.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

It's 45 ledge grabs on norfair, not 35.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When the lava rises or comes from a direction, they will be forced to stop planking.

 

[OverLade]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=62900

If you wanna get stages banned, read this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

just throwing that out there about planking on Norfair.

 

[fkacyan]

just throwing that out there about planking on Norfair.

You missed the part where shuttle loop on shield is 100% safe because it auto-grabs the edge behind you. And the part where down-B goes from ledge to ledge 100% safely. And the part where MK's air mobility is so fast that he can usually get to safety before lava is an issue, blah, blah, blah...

I'm more concerned about MK on Norfair because he can plank extremely well and use the lava when he's not to do ridiculous damage and combo you into kill moves. You'll see a lot of use of this stage by MK players. I guarantee it.

 

[Luigi player]

You missed the part where shuttle loop on shield is 100% safe because it auto-grabs the edge behind you. And the part where down-B goes from ledge to ledge 100% safely. And the part where MK's air mobility is so fast that he can usually get to safety before lava is an issue, blah, blah, blah...

I'm more concerned about MK on Norfair because he can plank extremely well and use the lava when he's not to do ridiculous damage and combo you into kill moves. You'll see a lot of use of this stage by MK players. I guarantee it.

MK has air mobility? lul
And his downB isn't 100 % safe. As long as you have projectiles it should be pretty easy to stop. Just pressure him on the ledges and force him to let go of them. Aka just go near him and he has to leave the ledge. Now just shield and then go away a little so he can't hit you. Or you can just throw projectiles. After some time he'll be above the ledgegrab limit and loses/has to fight normally.

There are other annoying things on Norfair, but MK isn't that much of a problem imo, as long as there is a LGL...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Thio, MK has some of the worst aerial mobility in the game unless he's gliding...

 

[fkacyan]

Thio, MK has some of the worst aerial mobility in the game unless he's gliding...

And why wouldn't he be gliding, exactly?

He has five platforms to scrooge under, it's not like they somehow make it easier to punish him for gliding under the stage.

EDIT: SideB, and to a lesser extent his other B moves, also comprise his mobility on this stage. SideB especially, because you can, in theory, cancel this every single time and plank without ever actually grabbing a ledge. Not that it's practical, but you certainly could abuse that property of it to reduce the number of ledges you have to grab.

 

[DanGR]

Edit: Almost forgot. MLG doesn't like ledge play.

So why does any of this matter again?

 

[OverLade]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=62900

If You Wanna Get Stages Banned, Read This.

In Case You Didnt See This.

 

[ADHD]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=62900

If you wanna get stages banned, read this.

Good ****, rich brown.

 

[ADHD]

Could you point out specific areas where the lava hit me and it was NOT a mistake I made/could avoid?

You do realize that an opponent hitting someone into lava is not the stages fault, right?

Why is there lava in the first place? Okay, you can bring up brinstar, but at least the lava only goes TWO directions and isn't so easy to combo off of. Also the giant stage enabled characters run for all eternity.

 

[Kitamerby]

And why wouldn't he be gliding, exactly?

He has five platforms to scrooge under, it's not like they somehow make it easier to punish him for gliding under the stage.

Because glide attack has terrible coverage if he's not facing the stage?

MK does have ridiculous mobility on this stage though. He really can cancel anything with everything however he feels like lol.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh, by the way, I found an interesting glitch with pit's arrows yesterday on Green greens. If you aim them properly, you can get them "stuck" in blocks with active hitboxes.

Utterly useless, but absolutely hilarious.

EDIT: @kitamerby: He doesn't have to glide attack - That's the best part! He's so safe under the platforms that he can cancel the glide and get to any of the three edges of the side he's on almost completely invincibly.

 

[Zero_Saber]

The issue I see with the stages the way they are now is the advantage MK gets. He can strike all neutrals and be left with pretty much no disadvantageous stages.

If MK were to strike the previous neutrals he would be taken to Halberd (which while he doesn't hate he dislikes more than most stages). With such a large list of stages it's going to be hard for any character to get a good stage at the start which should favor lower tier characters slightly more.

Honestly I don't know if I like such a large neutral list or not, but for now I don't see any individual character benefiting from the neutral selection particularly (although in an overall sense D3 has to love the stages).

 

[Kitamerby]

Oh, by the way, I found an interesting glitch with pit's arrows yesterday on Green greens. If you aim them properly, you can get them "stuck" in blocks with active hitboxes.

Utterly useless, but absolutely hilarious.

That's actually been found before. There are similar glitches for Fox and Falco's lasers, and even Olimar can do a similar thing on Corneria and Green Greens using Pikmin.

EDIT: @kitamerby: He doesn't have to glide attack - That's the best part! He's so safe under the platforms that he can cancel the glide and get to any of the three edges of the side he's on almost completely invincibly.

Oh right. Glide has almost no endlag, I forgot, but it does have some, I guess. There isn't time to glide to a ledge on the same side invincibly, but there is one more gay thing he can do there. He can just stall offstage far away for a long time using all 5 jumps, his glide, and ridiculous recovery specials.

What's REALLY scary though is that Pit can do something scarily similar. He can jump offstage far away, then fire arrows at you without fear of repercussion. It's ridiculously, stupidly gay.

 

[fkacyan]

That's actually been found before. There are similar glitches for Fox and Falco's lasers, and even Olimar can do a similar thing on Corneria and Green Greens using Pikmin.



Oh right. Glide has almost no endlag, I forgot, but it does have some, I guess. There isn't time to glide to a ledge on the same side invincibly, but there is one more gay thing he can do there. He can just stall offstage far away for a long time using all 5 jumps, his glide, and ridiculous recovery specials.

What's REALLY scary though is that Pit can do something scarily similar. He can jump offstage far away, then fire arrows at you without fear of repercussion. It's ridiculously, stupidly gay.

Pit's arrows get stopped by the platforms, though. it's actually extremely aggravating.

 

[Kitamerby]

Pit's arrows get stopped by the platforms, though. it's actually extremely aggravating.

I guess so, but that's why I'm assuming they aimed upwards from downwards or horizontal positions. It's less safe, but more gay. D:

 

[Crow!]

@ RedHalberd's linking to RichBrown:

I strongly agree that there should be more quality videos on counter/banned and even presently universally banned stages. Having data with which to actually confirm or deny claims is essential to proper decision making.

My opinion on the matter is that many of the stages that some regions ban really do test the players' skills, and that it is simply inexperience with some of the stages which leads to people feeling that the match was decided by luck.

 

[Turbo Ether]

OMG! MK is absurd on stages that are frequently banned!

So, who's the culprit: MK or the stages?

 

[fkacyan]

OMG! MK is absurd on stages that are frequently banned!

So, who's the culprit: MK or the stages?

I think that one of the reasons MK is so reviled in many regions is that they enable stages that he is absurd on.

So, both.

 

[MarKO X]

OMG! MK is absurd on stages that are frequently banned!

So, who's the culprit: MK or the stages?

lol frame of reference.

 

[Judo777]

That's actually been found before. There are similar glitches for Fox and Falco's lasers, and even Olimar can do a similar thing on Corneria and Green Greens using Pikmin.



Oh right. Glide has almost no endlag, I forgot, but it does have some, I guess. There isn't time to glide to a ledge on the same side invincibly, but there is one more gay thing he can do there. He can just stall offstage far away for a long time using all 5 jumps, his glide, and ridiculous recovery specials.

What's REALLY scary though is that Pit can do something scarily similar. He can jump offstage far away, then fire arrows at you without fear of repercussion. It's ridiculously, stupidly gay.

Mk cant use all 5 jumps the glide then use a recovery move when u use all ur jumps then glide u go into helpless state.

Also Mk cannot remain invincible the entire time using down B on norfairs platforms he in vulnerable upon reappearance next to the ledge as DMG showed in his thread.

The lava can make it pretty hard to plank on especially since its much easier for other players to pay attention to the stage than it is for people who have to foucs on the ledge. Also plumes target a place where a player last was and since many times plumes hit when the lava is covering all but the last two platforms that can make it fairly hard for u to stay on the ledge and plank when plumes cover the ledge.

Lastly norfair is a very small stage not as small as brinstar but its pretty close and so chasing after a scrooger wouldnt be too hard so you would essentially force him to grab the ledge every time.

 

[T-block]

I think that one of the reasons MK is so reviled in many regions is that they enable stages that he is absurd on.

So, both.

They also ban stages he actually doesn't do well on, like Yoshi's Island Melee.

 

[MK26]

Ok, personally, I do not believe Norfair needs to be an exception to the rule on ledgegrab limits. Here's why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQv5dJOMMmY&feature=related
that is game 1 of the GF set Atomsk and ADHD played at a recent NY tournament. I picked this set to look at for a few reasons: high level play, a relatively large number of games (9), usage of the MLG ruleset, and, most importantly, a game on Norfair. Granted, this is still a small sample size, but if there's a problem with ledge grabs on Norfair, it'd probably be at least somewhat obvious, no? I counted the ledge grabs from each player on each game, and here's what i came up with:

1.1: Battlefield - ADHD 4 / Atomsk 13
1.2: Brinstar - ADHD 5 / Atomsk 8
1.3: Pokemon Stadium - ADHD 6 / Atomsk 12
1.4: Pokemon Stadium - ADHD 8 / Atomsk 11
1.5: Frigate Orpheon - ADHD 6 / Atomsk 10

2.1: Battlefield - ADHD 7 / Atomsk 7
2.2: Smashville - ADHD 8 / Atomsk 18
2.3: Norfair - ADHD 8 / Atomsk 12
2.4: Pokemon Stadium - ADHD 8 / Atomsk 3 (not a typo lol)

Now, it's entirely possible I missed an edge grab or two here or there, but that's beside the point. Does it look like the Norfair match had an inordinate, or even an above-average, number of ledge grabs? Something that would cause a player to have 10 more ledge grabs than normal, without actively trying to? Doesn't look like it to me.

 

[OverLade]

You're forgetting that he wasn't intentionally using the stage to be gay/time him out. That's why you're going to see a problem...

Though tbh Norfair isn't near the worst of the stages in the list and I wont really care that its legal.

 

[MK26]

You're forgetting that he wasn't intentionally using the stage to be gay/time him out. That's why you're going to see a problem...

Though tbh Norfair isn't near the worst of the stages in the list and I wont really care that its legal.

no, that's the point...if he's not using the stage to intentionally gay/time, norfair doesnt need more ledge grabs. ergo, more ledge grabs can only benefit someone who's actually attempting to time out, not someone who would've accidentally gone over the limit otherwise. ergo, norfair doesnt need more ledge grabs than any other stage. 35 grabs for norfair plz

 

[OverLade]

Oh, nvm I misread ur post. Jk.

 

[Asakura cR]

Just because Atomsk doesn't stall out on ledge grabs doesn't mean other players won't.

I think the logic for it comes from the fact that there are just more ledges to grab on the stage.

 

[MK26]

2 people have misunderstood me now...

The point is exactly that he doesn't stall out. If he didn't stall out (which he didn't), and both players had a boost in the number of ledge grabs (which they didn't), then that would be grounds for giving Norfair a larger ledge grab limit. Normal, natural play, with the unintended side-effect of more ledge grabs, would justify the 45-grab exception. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. Thus, increasing the ledge grab limit starts to give ledge plankers a larger buffer zone, without aiding the normal, non-planking player (in fact, hurting him, because more ledge grabs makes planking slightly more viable).

To put it a different way: you're no more likely to hit 35 ledge grabs on Norfair than you are to hit 45, unless you're actively trying to stall. Thus, unless we want to help stallers stall on Norfair, there's no reason to make Norfair the exception to the rule and increase the ledge grab limit by 10 grabs.

Get it?

 

[Vyse]

I hear what you're saying MK26.

I wonder if LGL's should dictate the types of stages that should see competitive play.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

NJ/NY played a tournament using the MLG rules here's one of the matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB0bGWV9iA4

Perfect proof that we obviously have no intention to reference actual stage knowledge into the game any time soon.

You pros are massive scrubs when it comes to stages. This is pretty much what I'm seeing here. There's no problem with Norfair. No problem with Pictochat. If you beat your opponent by learning the stage, you've won by outplaying your opponent. It's pretty simple. Knowing a stage is part of the knowledge that you should have in this game. I think this whole "lolstages" mentality that has us clinging to a ridiculously polarizing stage as a starter in EVERY ruleset (even the most retardedly conservative ones), banning any stage with a hint of a hazard, and generally reducing the game to lame, flat stages comes from people being used to things like Street Fighter where the stage just doesn't matter.

TBH, I'd even support unbanning Port Town. Does it severely polarize any matchups? Yeah, I know, the cars. But it's the same as any other hazard here-you can see it coming and avoid it without much trouble. If you get grabbed/hit in the exact right way so that the opponent can knock you into it and avoid the hit themselves, well, your fault for being OUTPLAYED.

EDIT: Also, that reminds me-why are the LGLs not MK-specific?

 

[Raziek]

The cars are legit on Port Town, because it's easy to avoid them. The issue I have with port Town, though it is legal at the small tournaments I run, is that it tends to cause big problems for characters who have difficulty recovering linearly.

Actually, now that I say this to myself, that's kind of the point of CP'ing it. Port Town's legit in my books, but MLG likely won't have it.

Edit: If you ask me, the reason the LGL's aren't MK specific is because it would be basically admitting that it's a shoddy, band-aid fix that still cannot address the real problem without introducing a myriad of other problems into the game. Case in point, as Crow mentioned, the "technical" addition of a new victory condition.

I think LGL's are an extremely effective demonstration of surgical bans gone wrong, but MLG will be the deciding factor in the end.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The cars are legit on Port Town, because it's easy to avoid them. The issue I have with port Town, though it is legal at the small tournaments I run, is that it tends to cause big problems for characters who have difficulty recovering linearly.

Actually, now that I say this to myself, that's kind of the point of CP'ing it. Port Town's legit in my books, but MLG likely won't have it.

The MLG stage list is, AFAIK, not gonna change. But still, Port Town is really not a bad counterpick at all. It kind of benefits DDD due to the temporary walkoffs, but come on, we have CS as a starter!

 

[theunabletable]

If you ask me, the reason the LGL's aren't MK specific is because it would be basically admitting that it's a shoddy, band-aid fix that still cannot address the real problem without introducing a myriad of other problems into the game.

An MK specific LGL does introduce some new problems, yes; however, it's far better than all of the alternatives I have seen.

 

[Raziek]

That gets into a matter of subjectivity. I personally happen to think that banning MK is a much more reasonable alternative than shaping the game entirely around the idea that we should salvage a three-character meta-game for the sake of one of those characters.

However, despite the fact that most of Anti-ban has agreed to a temporary ban, such a thing can't possibly occur until after MLG. At which point, either Brawl is dead because MK gay'd Brawl out of MLG, or the game has so many restrictions around him that it becomes absurd.

Of course, everything I've just said is subjective and is more suited for the MK discussion thread, but the only people left in there are those who still don't understand the arguments of both sides, Etecoon trolling, and Budget Player Cadet wasting his time talking to people who won't listen.

Alas, I digress.

 

[RichBrown]

Thanks for posting my blog here, RH

Unfortunately, no one has stepped it up to compile clips into some sort of video... but I'm hoping that this upcoming weekend, all the TOs will have recording stations, and we can truly see why these stages are so awful.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Considering that Squirtle has an extremely BETTER infinite on Ness/Lucas than Marth does...

Like, Marth cg is VERY LARGE STEPS; hell its like a melee marth wave dash compared to squirtles regrab.
Think I am exaggerating? Maybe just a little, but try it out yourself.

iirc it's zard, peach, and marth who ZZZZZZZZ Ness.
Not squirtle