The Unofficial Offical MLG Ruleset Discussion

[fkacyan]

They also ban stages he actually doesn't do well on, like Yoshi's Island Melee.

There isn't a single stage in the game MK actually does poorly on, and if you think there is you don't play good MKs.

Maybe there will be individual characters who beat him on the stage, but MK can abuse several aspects of every stage. I can already think of a way to score an extremely ******** kill on YI:M at extremely low percents.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There isn't a single stage in the game MK actually does poorly on, and if you think there is you don't play good MKs.

Maybe there will be individual characters who beat him on the stage, but MK can abuse several aspects of every stage. I can already think of a way to score an extremely ******** kill on YI:M at extremely low percents.

Funny most MK's ban FD, even M2K.

Sorry but if most of the top MK's are banning that stage it's sign that character isn't good there, or in this case isn't as good.

 

[T-block]

Squirtle has to move much less than Charizard does, but he can't force a ground release (it's a very small window to air release).

 

[Kitamerby]

Mk cant use all 5 jumps the glide then use a recovery move when u use all ur jumps then glide u go into helpless state.

He can use 4 jumps, glide, then jump again. It doesn't have to be in that order.

Funny most MK's ban FD, even M2K.

Sorry but if most of the top MK's are banning that stage it's sign that character isn't good there, or in this case isn't as good.

FD is MK's worst stage by far only because there is nothing gay to abuse there outside of ledges. HOWEVER, it doesn't necessarily HURT or CRIPPLE MK in any way, shape, or form at all.

 

[fkacyan]

Funny most MK's ban FD, even M2K.

Sorry but if most of the top MK's are banning that stage it's sign that character isn't good there, or in this case isn't as good.

There are other reasons to ban a stage than your character's viability.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

FD is MK's worst stage by far only because there is nothing gay to abuse there outside of ledges. HOWEVER, it doesn't necessarily HURT or CRIPPLE MK in any way, shape, or form at all.

Isn't that what makes it a bad stage for him?

The fact he can't abuse much of anything while many characters can thrive on the flat surface.

There are other reasons to ban a stage than your character's viability.

See above.

 

[Kitamerby]

Isn't that what makes it a bad stage for him?

The fact he can't abuse much of anything while many characters can thrive on the flat surface.



See above.

Not if he still wins or goes even with any matchup on that stage regardless. :\

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not if he still wins or goes even with any matchup on that stage regardless. :\

Better than most stages for a lot of characters.

 

[Kitamerby]

Better than most stages for a lot of characters.

Just because it's better for them doesn't mean it's necessarily BAD for Meta Knight. That's the key to remember.

 

[Asakura cR]

No one is saying the stage isn't "bad" for MK, they're saying that if that's a bad stage for MK then he's in a considerably better position than any other character on their "bad" stages.

MK is still really good on his bad stage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just because it's better for them doesn't mean it's necessarily BAD for Meta Knight. That's the key to remember.

But it's still bad in retrospect how it helps other characters against him play much better than on other stages.

I'm not doubting he doesn't lose out much on FD, I'm saying it's a bad stage for him because most characters can fight him much better on this stage compared to others such as YI, Bf, etc.

The fact that multiple character gain a lot from his loss on this stage does make it bad for him.

 

[Asakura cR]

Still, bad for MK is subjective. Nothing is actually bad for MK in comparison to what's bad for other characters.

 

[1048576]

Perfect proof that we obviously have no intention to reference actual stage knowledge into the game any time soon.

You pros are massive scrubs when it comes to stages. This is pretty much what I'm seeing here. There's no problem with Norfair. No problem with Pictochat. If you beat your opponent by learning the stage, you've won by outplaying your opponent. It's pretty simple. Knowing a stage is part of the knowledge that you should have in this game. I think this whole "lolstages" mentality that has us clinging to a ridiculously polarizing stage as a starter in EVERY ruleset (even the most retardedly conservative ones), banning any stage with a hint of a hazard, and generally reducing the game to lame, flat stages comes from people being used to things like Street Fighter where the stage just doesn't matter.

TBH, I'd even support unbanning Port Town. Does it severely polarize any matchups? Yeah, I know, the cars. But it's the same as any other hazard here-you can see it coming and avoid it without much trouble. If you get grabbed/hit in the exact right way so that the opponent can knock you into it and avoid the hit themselves, well, your fault for being OUTPLAYED.

EDIT: Also, that reminds me-why are the LGLs not MK-specific?

I hit you when the hazard is not present ten times.
You hit me when the hazard is present three times.

You won, but who outplayed who?
This is the kind of luck some of us are trying to eliminate. If I hit you ten times for every three times you hit me, (and the matchup is relatively even blah blah blah) then I should win. But then the presence of hazards mean that some hits are worth more then they should be, rendering that minute or so that the hazards have an impact more significant then any other time.

It's like getting hit with a turnip while offstage. Yes, you should have avoided it, but failure to avoid it should be worth ~10%, not some variable determined by the RNG.

 

[Kitamerby]

You hit me when Frigate was in Stage 2 ten times.

I gimped you while Frigate was in Stage 1 once.

I won, but who outplayed who?

 

[MarKO X]

I upB'd with Ike on Smashville's platform 7 times because it was unsafe, difficult, or impossible for me to try the ledge.
You tripped into my Fsmash once.

I won, but who outplayed who?

 

[<π]

port town would be a bad MK level. Mk's recovery is really bad without ledges.

I like port town... even though most of my characters are bad on port town.

peach jiggs wario and a bunch of other characters would have a very solid CP if they put two seconds into learning the stage. cars you can generally see coming like 10 seconds before they get there spare one transformation.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why is MK's recovery bad without ledges again? 5 jumps, two glides, 4 possible recovery specials with huge distance and safety...

 

[milesg2g]

Why is MK's recovery bad without ledges again? 5 jumps, two glides, 4 possible recovery specials with huge distance and safety...

Because it's just not fair

 

[OverLade]

port town would be a bad MK level. Mk's recovery is really bad without ledges.

LOL at this.

MK STILL has the best without ledges, it just makes everyone elses recover even work. Port town means MK can edguard more easily and still has enough recovery options to make it back safely, as opposed to every other character who is completely screwed without ledge sweetspots.

 

[Raziek]

^This, unfortunately. Barring stages that assist SOME characters in attaining an advantage over MK (Like Olimar on YI:M for example), there's no stage that gives a universal disadvantage to MK. You can minimize his advantages, but that's it. But oh wait, he's banning that stage.

The fact that MK breaks the counterpicking system is another big problem with him. Everyone wants to learn him, and it's difficult to risk counterpicking a janky stage against a non-MK main, because, well, they might have a pocket MK! It's a little different than having another backup secondary to cover bad stages or match-ups.

I look at it like this.

I come to a fight with a Sword (Marth), and a handful of grenades (Snake), should I need to use them. You come to a fight with any weapon you want (Your main, sans MK in this example), but in your back pocket, unknown to me, you have a highly effective military assault rifle that works effectively at ALL distances, just slightly less so on one particular arena.

Guess who wins?

 

[1048576]

You hit me when Frigate was in Stage 2 ten times.

I gimped you while Frigate was in Stage 1 once.

I won, but who outplayed who?

These analogys are flawed because you can see this stuff coming from the very beginning of the match. Same with the platform on SV. Random hazards ruin zoning. These don't.

Anyway, I think its established that randomness is anti-competitive. So what's your guys' philosophy? Since we have tripping we may as well have everything short of pokeballs?

 

[Raziek]

Randomness is anti-competitive only to a point. The ability to adapt quickly to uncertain situations is one of the key qualities in being a good smash player. I agree that items have potential for competitive play, but I doubt they will be widely adopted because the randomness and individual skill required by the player is extremely skewed.

If a Hammer spawns next to your opponent, there's nothing at all you could have done about that.

If one of the missiles spawns on top of you on Pictochat, you were in a bad position to begin with, and your opponent PROBABLY forced you there. Now, on the other hand, if the locations of the cart, flower, spikes, arrows, and missiles were randomly placed on the stage, and there was nothing you could do to preemptively avoid them, I would be more inclined to agree.

Pictochat's general philosophy revolves around controlling the left side of the stage, or you take large risks. This is a factor easily controlled by the players. In addition to that, the drawing time for each transformation gives a reasonable amount of time to react to most transitions.

That said, if you happen to land a Warlock punch at 30% on a light character, and you get the diagonal line spawn in and save them by bouncing them to the ground, that's really unfortunate for you, but could easily be considered a wise counterpick by your opponent, or a poor counterpick by you.

Pictochat is a calculated risk. Either take it or don't, but you'd better be prepared that your opponent might take said risk.

 

[1048576]

Randomness is anti-competitive only to a point. The ability to adapt quickly to uncertain situations is one of the key qualities in being a good smash player. I agree that items have potential for competitive play, but I doubt they will be widely adopted because the randomness and individual skill required by the player is extremely skewed.

If a Hammer spawns next to your opponent, there's nothing at all you could have done about that.

If one of the missiles spawns on top of you on Pictochat, you were in a bad position to begin with, and your opponent PROBABLY forced you there. Now, on the other hand, if the locations of the cart, flower, spikes, arrows, and missiles were randomly placed on the stage, and there was nothing you could do to preemptively avoid them, I would be more inclined to agree.

Pictochat's general philosophy revolves around controlling the left side of the stage, or you take large risks. This is a factor easily controlled by the players. In addition to that, the drawing time for each transformation gives a reasonable amount of time to react to most transitions.

That said, if you happen to land a Warlock punch at 30% on a light character, and you get the diagonal line spawn in and save them by bouncing them to the ground, that's really unfortunate for you, but could easily be considered a wise counterpick by your opponent, or a poor counterpick by you.

Pictochat is a calculated risk. Either take it or don't, but you'd better be prepared that your opponent might take said risk.

The uncertainty should come from your opponent. It should not be random i.e. luck i.e. not skill i.e. doesn't belong in a test of skill i.e. anti competitive.

What happens when I hit you to the right and the missiles don't come, and then you hit me and the missles do come. You're up 25% cause you flipped heads. Also, I'm pretty sure the spike hazards don't discriminate between what side of the stage you're on.

 

[OverLade]

Snake is the only character who can actually gain a 50-50 matchup with MK over the course of a set due to CPs and bans.

Imo Diddy Kong/Falco/ICs can at best gain a 45-55 chance of winning outside of player skill (due to bans and counterpicks legal in the majority of regions with exceptions).

 

[Judo777]

The uncertainty should come from your opponent. It should not be random i.e. luck i.e. not skill i.e. doesn't belong in a test of skill i.e. anti competitive.

What happens when I hit you to the right and the missiles don't come, and then you hit me and the missles do come. You're up 25% cause you flipped heads. Also, I'm pretty sure the spike hazards don't discriminate between what side of the stage you're on.

There is tons of randomness in smash people win all the time from a flip of a coin look at peach D3 and luigi they sometimes win because of chance thats just something that has to be considered when playing. If u are a person that doesn't like the risks of a neutral stage just donmt play on it by banning it. Even if you dont ban it u can alway cp a neutral and since game 1 is obviously the most important it really shouldnt be a tide turner now should it? If you are the better player you SHOULD win the neutral stage so it doesnt matter where the hell they take u cause you SHOULD win on ur cp if you are better.

 

[Crow!]

@ 1048576:
Do you believe that Poker is a valid competitive game?

 

[Demp]

Gaymenwatch, D3, and Peach all have an element of randomness too. JUST SAIJIN.

 

[fkacyan]

Snake is the only character who can actually gain a 50-50 matchup with MK over the course of a set due to CPs and bans.

Imo Diddy Kong/Falco/ICs can at best gain a 45-55 chance of winning outside of player skill (due to bans and counterpicks legal in the majority of regions with exceptions).

MK loses to various characters on various neutrals depending on the character, and maybe one or two CPs.

 

[Raziek]

@ 1048576:
Do you believe that Poker is a valid competitive game?

Fairly certain I know what this is aimed at...

I'm reminded of a certain quotation, "It's not the cards you're dealt, but how you play them."

Seems to apply reasonably here.

 

[fkacyan]

Fairly certain I know what this is aimed at...

I'm reminded of a certain quotation, "It's not the cards you're dealt, but how you play them."

Seems to apply reasonably here.

Comparing Smash to Poker is the most ludicrous argument I've seen yet. There's only one point of comparison - randomness - and while randomness is inherent in poker, it doesn't have to be in Smash.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Funny most MK's ban FD, even M2K.

Sorry but if most of the top MK's are banning that stage it's sign that character isn't good there, or in this case isn't as good.

Isn't as good. Not "bad". Hence me wanting this "MK gay stage rule"

I hit you when the hazard is not present ten times.
You hit me when the hazard is present three times.

You won, but who outplayed who?

I outplayed you. You were stupid enough to get hit exactly then. It's not like it's a bomb is dropping from the ceiling-if you can't see the lava coming and get out of the way, tough luck.

This is the kind of luck some of us are trying to eliminate. If I hit you ten times for every three times you hit me, (and the matchup is relatively even blah blah blah) then I should win. But then the presence of hazards mean that some hits are worth more then they should be, rendering that minute or so that the hazards have an impact more significant then any other time.

Yes. It's NOT luck. If I hit you into the cars on port town, is it your lousy luck that the cars just happened to be there at that time?

It's like getting hit with a turnip while offstage. Yes, you should have avoided it, but failure to avoid it should be worth ~10%, not some variable determined by the RNG.

Lava does random damage? News to me.

These analogys are flawed because you can see this stuff coming from the very beginning of the match. Same with the platform on SV. Random hazards ruin zoning. These don't.

Anyway, I think its established that randomness is anti-competitive. So what's your guys' philosophy? Since we have tripping we may as well have everything short of pokeballs?

I honestly think that if you can see a hazard coming a mile away and you know it's going to happen on the stage and you can determine exactly how it works, it hardly counts as random any more.

 

[Espy Rose]

Wait...am I reading this wrong, or are people seriously arguing against Norfair's glaringly obvious, easy-to-see-from-miles-away-lava plumes?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait...am I reading this wrong, or are people seriously arguing against Norfair's glaringly obvious, easy-to-see-from-miles-away-lava plumes?

Or something. It's ridiculous. Pro scrubs, these guys.

 

[So Fatal]

if we could have 2 bans, i would be happy xD

 

[OverLade]

MK loses to various characters on various neutrals depending on the character, and maybe one or two CPs.

No.

10wtfareyousmokings?

edit:
Agree with fatal.

 

[MarKO X]

Wait...am I reading this wrong, or are people seriously arguing against Norfair's glaringly obvious, easy-to-see-from-miles-away-lava plumes?

it doesn't matter because it's random.
apparently random, no matter how much you can see said random coming, doesn't fly too well here.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Comparing Smash to Poker is the most ludicrous argument I've seen yet. There's only one point of comparison - randomness - and while randomness is inherent in poker, it doesn't have to be in Smash.

Christ, yes it does. Unless you're trying to get hacked Brawl as a tournament standard, luck will always be a part of the game. Always. Jeez, what's with all the stage johns? It's not like you can't see things coming.

And for the record, if you hit me 70 times with no lava, and I hit you into the lava six times and win, I outplayed you. I had better DI than you to survive 70 hits, and I saw opportunities to use stage control / positioning against you, and then successfully applied knockback angles to capitalize on those positioning advantages.

Just because you don't like that it was lava and not an F-smash doesn't mean that you didn't get outplayed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

if we could have 2 bans, i would be happy xD

This is so true when I first looked at the stages I assumed that if they increased the stages like this then they would increase the bans. I think 2 bans would be good. MLG ruleset = fail.

 

[RichBrown]

2 bans would fix a LOT of issues actually, if the stagelist stays as it is.....

 

[So Fatal]

2 bans = reg cp stages with no bans xD. Me for President