The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hate to disappoint, but I'm late for school.

 

[milesg2g]

I figured since BPC likes to be condescending when people don't agree with him and you do the same, you might like to flame the hell out of each other for a while to determine the winner of this debate.

At least BPC is actually capable of explaining himself.

Hate to disappoint, but I never read his posts

 

[Bizkit047]

Oh yeah BTW earth to Bizkit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXg3C9mhTkw&t=1m45s
There you go. Serious problem. BAN PICTO.

I'm surprised you didn't link me to one of my own videos...which would make this even more ironic. You do know I'm literally probably the most against Pictochat out of anyone in the BBR-RC, right?

You also need to calm down about the stages. It's a starting point. The stages were set MONTHS ago, before quite a few members (myself included) were in the BBR-RC. Did you really think that would change first release? First step is to try to remove Pictochat, as that stage has been proven to be anti-competitive, even if not as common as most people exaggerate. If that goes through, THEN things like starter stages can be dealt with. You post as if this ruleset is going to be the ruleset forever without change. We're looking at a change in likely less than a week.

 

[Tesh]

Bizkit, I hope you guys deliver on that promise. And not minor changes like adjusting the LGL by 5 grabs or something.

Also, BPC and G2G, what if Goku had just put Vegeta on his ignore list? What if Vegeta had gone to school instead of fighting? Be a man and fight will ya.

 

[BSP]

I'll get back to that Tblock. I lost what I wrote since I timed out >_> and i need to get to sleep

 

[Bizkit047]

IF the BBRRC is saying they are making his worst stage a starter to help keep him in line, then why don't they just say it. So far the only response we got was "LOL BUT IT WERE LIEK DIS IN MELEE, MELEE AND BARLW ARE SAME GAME AND MELEE PPLAYERS WUZ RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING".

I don't think anyone from the BBR-RC has posted anything like that for reasoning.

Speaking of maps, why can't the BBRRC sanction the use of custom stages now with this unity? It would certainly help create more "static starters". I know what the arguement against this will be, and its not really good imo.

That would be extremely messy to use. It would mean all TOs need to have SD cards with the allowed custom stages. It's asking too much for that to be a reality.

Bizkit, I hope you guys deliver on that promise. And not minor changes like adjusting the LGL by 5 grabs or something.

We're already re-discussing Pictochat. No voting taking place yet until later in the week most likely. No talk on changing LGL yet. There would probably need to be tourneys ran with the new LGL rule before another discussion on it can take place.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well im off work finally. wat's the deal on japes? im not reading 8 pages just to find one post. i don't care about anything else, i just wanna know if japes is gonna be reviewed.

 

[Reizilla]

I'm surprised you didn't link me to one of my own videos...which would make this even more ironic. You do know I'm literally probably the most against Pictochat out of anyone in the BBR-RC, right?

You also need to calm down about the stages. It's a starting point. The stages were set MONTHS ago, before quite a few members (myself included) were in the BBR-RC. Did you really think that would change first release? First step is to try to remove Pictochat, as that stage has been proven to be anti-competitive, even if not as common as most people exaggerate. If that goes through, THEN things like starter stages can be dealt with. You post as if this ruleset is going to be the ruleset forever without change. We're looking at a change in likely less than a week.

I honestly feel that Japes and Norfair should be looked at before you try removing Picto. Removing Picto is just going to make those stages that much harder to get back in. If you can, at least, or if you're even in favor of those, that's the best way to do it. I could bear Picto with Japes and Norfair moreso than all three of those gone.

 

[Bizkit047]

I honestly feel that Japes and Norfair should be looked at before you try removing Picto. Removing Picto is just going to make those stages that much harder to get back in. If you can, at least, or if you're even in favor of those, that's the best way to do it. I could bear Picto with Japes and Norfair moreso than all three of those gone.

I would easily say Japes is better than Pictochat. But as for it not being legal, I'm not entirely sure on the reasoning as like I've stated, I wasn't in the BBR-RC during the initial stage discussion. I'm not saying I'm for it either, but I could see it being re-discussed eventually. Not so sure about Norfair...

 

[Tagxy]

I would easily say Japes is better than Pictochat. But as for it not being legal, I'm not entirely sure on the reasoning as like I've stated, I wasn't in the BBR-RC during the initial stage discussion. I'm not saying I'm for it either, but I could see it being re-discussed eventually. Not so sure about Norfair...

lol, this is exactly my point for people like BPC and MK26. Once Picto or other stages are removed....good luck adding anything else.

 

[Reizilla]

@bizkit, Just thought I'd mention, it's good to see your input without having to sift through a wall of text full of fancy-smamcy sugarcoating of your own ideas.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

gotta say i took the time to read a lot of this. add japes and norfair. then go with lenus's idea of all legal stages being starter stages.

if i take wat fuddo was saying about being a pit main and advocating FD as not being a starter, against most character's pit has an advantage at FD when compared to other neutrals so while it does not benefit our character to not have it as a starter, it is fair to those who we normally would not beat as hard there due to ridiculous camping factor that stage allows thus not making it neutral when but making it our advantage. im not saying i do or that i don't share the same view, that's just wat i took from it.

skipped the ridiculously long posts. way to much time to read with work in a little while.

should i bother to write a big ol post on why i think japes should be legal giving legit examples and reasons? if it's not gonna be taken seriously by you guys i won't bother typing it but if it is just answer this question andn let me know.

 

[Flayl]

sunshade: Having matches directly decided (as in, you don't know until the results screen/sudden death pops up) by randomness is anticompetitive and is the reason we don't use the default sudden death.

Please justify changing sudden death and not choosing an outcome for ganon's suicide.

 

[MK26]

@tagxy: personally i think the best course of action is replacing picto with japes, and then moving from there

@tblock: meh. i covered most of that in my big post. and personally i dont think your frigate example really works because you can know when the stage wont flip (background is dark) and from the first minute or 2 the half that the stage its staying more on will usually be the one it stays the most on for the entire match

and like i mentioned i'd rather not let my cp be up to a coin flip, so personally i dont think anybody should be cping frigate against olimar unless its really worth it

 

[Nanaki]

I don't think anyone from the BBR-RC has posted anything like that for reasoning.

The "brawl era" people have lost sight(or maybe never had it) of what a Neutral/Counter Pick stage is. FD was perfectly fine in melee and will always been fine in Brawl.

Not nearly as crude, but pretty much the exact same argument.

/disappears again

 

[Gea]

I advise you guys to remember that I seriously doubt all of the members of the committee shared opinions or ideals at all. Don't take Xyro's responses as anything but his own opinion.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The "brawl era" people have lost sight(or maybe never had it) of what a Neutral/Counter Pick stage is. FD was perfectly fine in melee and will always been fine in Brawl.

While I agree that FD is a perfectly fine starter, I do not think it is as "neutral" as people think it is. Unless you define "neutral" as "lacking obstacles" rather than "neutral in terms of matchups". Either of those definitions is really okay, since they're both subjective, as are stagelists in general. But I think people forget that the opposing camp isn't ever really "wrong" when it comes to picking a stage list.

Anyway yeah, FD is still a fine starter though, but so are plenty of other stages like Lylatt or even possibly PS2 if you look at it in terms of matchups.

 

[T-block]

It doesn't matter whether it's a good CP choice. Point is, the match could be swayed by the stage.

Frigate thread

Consider the two trials where the time spent on phase 1 to the time spent on phase 2 was 24:76 and then 76:24. Don't you think those matches would have looked quite different? Doesn't really matter when the flips are - you don't know what it will be before you choose the stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

While I agree that FD is a perfectly fine starter, I do not think it is as "neutral" as people think it is. Unless you define "neutral" as "lacking obstacles" rather than "neutral in terms of matchups". Either of those definitions is really okay, since they're both subjective, as are stagelists in general. But I think people forget that the opposing camp isn't ever really "wrong" when it comes to picking a stage list.

Anyway yeah, FD is still a fine starter though, but so are plenty of other stages like Lylatt or even possibly PS2 if you look at it in terms of matchups.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12497486&postcount=259

Just the fact that there are so many stages that are more valid as starters or neutrals should be enough to bump FD up at least to 7 starters. That said, what makes it fine as a starter? I still haven't heard justification for this. None of the argumentations work.
"I want a static stage in round one." Then you shouldn't be stage striking at all.
"I think that it's neutral to the player." So is every other stage with minimal random elements.
"It's neutral because it's FD." This is a completely arbitrary, circular statement with absolutely nothing to back it up. It's like saying "The Napkin religion is the only religion because it says so right here on this napkin".
"It's not that bad." This is just wishful thinking.

Seriously, what's it going to take to get people to realize that FD is not a good starter stage? 7 starters its bearable. 9 starters it's reasonable. 11 starters it really should be in. But 5? 5?!? There's no justification. At all. There is simply no justification for running a 5-stage starter list with FD. None.

 

[Gea]

Actually, most people seem to be giving the argument that because FD does not directly interfere with gameplay, it makes it "neutral." It does so even less than either Stadium/Delphino/Castlesiege. And you're saying it's not because it sways matchups too much. Different values.

 

[san.]

What are the list of stages without any platforms or secondary surfaces?

 

[Gea]

Eldin, FD?

 

[san.]

Platforms seem to be an integral part to our metagame.

 

[Yikarur]

it's bridge of eldin not elginn

 

[san.]

The only way to play a stage without any platforms is to play only FD in our legal stage list?

 

[Gea]

Sorry, wasn't paying attention. Indeed, it is FD. I get the point. My views on FD aren't stated. I'm merely listing the values of others that was skimmed over for seemingly no reason.

 

[san.]

I think no-platform gameplay is pretty divergent from the standard given the tools provided for us by almost every other legal stage.

 

[Gea]

I think no-platform gameplay is pretty divergent from the standard given the tools provided for us by almost every other legal stage.

I'd like to play devil's advocate and say PS2 falls to this same argument. (except replace no platforms to things like ice, belts, and wind)

 

[san.]

I'm pretty sure most stages in the game have stage hazards. We also are familiar with windboxes, ice from attacks. Characters also already have their own natural slide.

EDIT: I think PS2 should be on like a 9 stage starter list, so you comparing FD to PS2 I agree.

 

[Gea]

I wasn't aware that GW's uair is the same thing as the wind transformation in PS2, nor that ice or belts were the same as attacks.

Furthermore, there are plenty of flat surfaces around platforms, playing without a platform for brief periods isn't unheard of.

Edit: Okay then, nevermind.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think no-platform gameplay is pretty divergent from the standard given the tools provided for us by almost every other legal stage.

As much as I really want this line of argumentation to die in a fire (it's what led us into this "BF/SV/FD are the best stages!" mess in the first place!), you've got a point on anyone who holds to it (i.e. most of the people who think FD is a legitimate starter stage).

 

[san.]

I wasn't aware that GW's uair is the same thing as the wind transformation in PS2, nor that ice or belts were the same as attacks.

Furthermore, there are plenty of flat surfaces around platforms, playing without a platform for brief periods isn't unheard of.

Edit: Okay then, nevermind.

Can't believe you accepted the nonsense I just posted (translating attacks to stage transformations).

@BPC: I think BF is one of the best stages, although I like almost every stage anyways.

 

[Gea]

Who accepted it? You said you didn't want to replace FD with PS2, just expand starter list. I'm not gonna complain about that.

 

[MK26]

It doesn't matter whether it's a good CP choice. Point is, the match could be swayed by the stage.

Frigate thread

Consider the two trials where the time spent on phase 1 to the time spent on phase 2 was 24:76 and then 76:24. Don't you think those matches would have looked quite different? Doesn't really matter when the flips are - you don't know what it will be before you choose the stage.

You can't know which places Delfino will go to before you pick the stage. Hell, if you're not perceptive, you can't know where it'll go until it's already hit the ground.

Spoiler

Firstly, I believe Frigate can be predicted largely by following a series of If -> Then statements.

The First major split comes at the 7:27-7:17 mark. In the majority of my trials, the stage has flipped at this point. If it does, it is HIGHLY likely that the majority of the time will be spent on Transition 2. If it does NOT flip at this point, my trials show that the stage will follow a pattern based around Transition 1.

The majority of what is going to happen revolves around a simple concept: If one thing happens, the other CANNOT happen for at least "x" amount of time.

Following the first flip to Phase 2, there is a 30-40 second gap before the next event.

After this buffer period passes, one of two thing will happen:

1) The Stage flips again.
2) The Lights go out.

If the lights go out, the prediction is simple. From the time the lights go out, they will be off for exactly 30 seconds. After this, we return to the former pattern of a 30-40 second gap, followed by the same If -> then.

If the stage FLIPS, the prediction gets a little hazier. The grand majority of my trials have shown the stage focusing primarily on one transition, based on whether or not it flips at 7:17. If it DOES flip, you get a type 2. What this means, it that if it flips BACK to phase 1, it becomes extremely likely that it will flip back to phase 2 after 25 seconds. It then resumes the 30 sec Gap -> If/Then pattern.

If it doesn't flip, you get a Type 1, and it does MORE OR LESS the same thing as type 2, just changing the transitions roles. It will usually spend a mere 25 second on Phase 2 if it DOES flip, then it will flip back to phase 1.

Predicting this stage is done simply by making educated guesses based on the timing and transition type, whether you have type 1 or 2. Between the If/Thens and reading the set time gaps, you can play here quite easily.

It is regrettable that the stage still seems to have some inherently random determinants, but by and large, it is quite easy to predict. Just be aware that every once in a while, it might screw you over.

That's from the Frigate guide. For the most part, you can assume that the stage will stick to phase 2. After 1 minute of battle, if you sense that the pattern means it's sticking to phase 1, you can adapt to that. If you play Olimar, you can celebrate a little bit. You have a massive, macro-scale advance warning about what will happen on the stage. The stage is predictable (moreso than Picto, Delfino, and even YI), and even though the stage can alter the match based on the RNG, it is still possible to prepare for such alterations and take them into account when choosing to cp it in the first place. You haven't brought up the side platforms, which are essentially the same as YI's: only show up in two places, consistently the same place every time, and only one needs to be considered at a time. I'm beating a dead horse here, but they're predictable and preparable. Both players can take them into account in every decision they make, and frankly they come in from the sides so they aren't really having any effect on low-percentage gimps anyways.

You cannot feasably compare Frigate's predictable 10-seconds-of-flashing-lights-and-sirens warnings and structured, preparable, hazard-free stage setup to Picto's almost completely random, unpredictable, and certainly unpreventable hazards.

 

[T-block]

You're still missing the point. Step back and look at the bigger picture.

Pictochat can affect the outcome of a match by chance.
Frigate can affect the outcome of a match by chance.

 

[san.]

I'm still not getting the point.

Knowing that a stage "affects the outcome of a matchup by chance" doesn't give us any relevant information.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Brinstar is infinitely worse as a legal stage than Pictochat lol

I don't think it's our job to minimize randomness. If it was, we would have declared a rule for Ganoncides instead of just "letting the came decide." Why is it OK to let the game decide in this case when it isn't OK to allow Pictochat to affect the outcome of a match?

There are a host of stages that are currently illegal that are less frustrating than Brinstar, lol

 

[T-block]

We allow Frigate to affect the outcome. Why is it not okay for Pictochat to?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We allow Frigate to affect the outcome. Why is it not okay for Pictochat to?

Yeah, this, If it is the RC's job to minimize randomness there are a few inconsistencies to iron out. If it isn't, then Pictochat is a perfectly fine stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You're still missing the point. Step back and look at the bigger picture.

Pictochat can affect the outcome of a match by chance.
Frigate can affect the outcome of a match by chance.

FD does too. There is literally no stage that doesn't. Why? Crawldashing moves faster in one direction than in the other, and player positioning is randomized between different positions. Even if you were to ignore minimalist things like that, the number of "non-random" stages is still down to two: FD and BF.

The difference is how much it effects the outcome. When you compare, pictochat has clear, obvious points where it just flat-out kills you. Comparing this to frigate is just not sensible.

How much randomness is acceptable is completely subjective. Some people look in to playing seriously on Warioware. I find Pictochat is where I draw the (diagonal gimping) line.