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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

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what the hell is "neutrality" in this MU considering MK obviously wins anyway. Even with MK starting on ICs best stages, Ice Climbers let alone all of the other characters that are good on those stages vs MK dont win a Majority of the time anyway.
...Your point? Replace MK with Wario, or G&W, or any other character with similar stage pick patterns. Yeah, it might not be an issue for MK, but Wario? Furthermore, it's simply unfair in principle-MK is amazing, don't nerf him arbitrarily. And if you're going to nerf him arbitrarily, do it in a way that doesn't make the overall balance of the game suffer. Make it so that he has to strike half as many stages as the opponent or something. Not that the entire stage striking system is unbalanced.

Also as regards to neutrality in MUs and you always arguing that regarding FD and PS2, it has always been proven that MU numbers will once again, and then again be proven false, changed or have players with different opinions. You can say PS2 has really even MUs, and FD doesnt, but who are you to do that? Who is anyone?
For now, the matchup numbers are considered fairly constant. Can they change? Of course. If they do, we change the starter list to reflect the new developments. We don't keep the starter list as is in the blind hopes that **** will change to the way we hope they will, we keep our rulesets flexible to new data.

Since matchups, let alone stage specific matchups will never be agreed upon, stages with less intrusions allow you to more cleanly see a matchup for what it really is, And allowing both characters to use their tools, and out skill each other.
You know what? I'm not even going to bother with this tired argument. This way of thought leads to the idea of an FD-only stagelist and is not a good thing. :glare:

Too tired/late/busy to be less salty than this atm.
 

MK26

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@tblock: you're a marth on smashville. right off the bat, your opponent runs up to you to pressure your shield, grabs you, throws you off the stage, and gets rid of your second jump. he's poised to take an early stock lead, but you see the smashville platform coming near, so you stall with your side-b then up-b onto the platform. If the platform started in a different position, the stock count would be different.

you're a peach on delfino. you've just been spiked below the stage, high enough for you to survive but not quite high enough for you to recover. you patiently wait with your parasol open, slowly floating downward, and, lo and behold, the stage moves downward and saves you. given a different scenario, the stage would take longer to move down and you'd die off the bottom blast zone. random reward, stock count is changed.

you're a falco on lylat. you didnt ban the stage because you know its tricks, so when you're hit off you know where to aim your side-b in order to recover. you've been knocked far enough that your opponent can cover the stage and still be able to pressure you on the ledge. you recognize that the current scene is about to end, and that the ledge that is currently tilted upward will quickly snap back to flat. faking out your opponent, you side-b high but cancel it quickly, aiming for where the ledge will be. but wait! the scene is performing the unlikely action of switching later than usual! instead of coming down quickly, it stays high for longer, and you lose your stock.

game&watch. brinstar. you know the lava's timings and when it can save you. you get spiked when you think it's up far enough, and instead of wasting your double jump you let yourself get bounced back up. unfortunately, the lava's timing is a split second late and you die.

olimar. frigate. 1st transformation. right-hand side platform is at neutral. you're about to get gimped. if it falls, you're saved, if it stalls or rises, you're dead.

randomness is everywhere in brawl. sometimes it costs people stocks. asserting that a single scenario that can occur in one place on one stage is somehow worse than all the myriad others that can occur in different stages but still contain only one scenario (aka two options, one of which leads to life and the other to death), while making no distinction between that and the 27 different ways picto can screw you over, is a mistake.

===

and as an aside, yes, it does matter if the diagonal line shows up while you're recovering from the right. why? because you were expecting a hazard and none showed up. because of the possibility that you might get screwed over, and the possibility that your opponent might, and the possibility that you both might...the possibility that neither might must also be taken into consideration. this is a passive change to the stage - by not changing in a substantial way, it still deviates from expectations.

and sorry for the last post, i'm in a bad mood today.
 

san.

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Because if you consider Yoshi's the way you do, my argument for Pictochat doesn't have much weight. I would respond to your Pictochat arguments in the same way I've always been: does it really matter HOW Pictochat interferes with a match? Ultimately, don't we only care that it DOES affect a match?
It does matter how. Every stage affects a match by being a different stage than another stage. If the stage list was BF and FD, BF affects a match by not being FD and vice versa. I know you're like "wait, wut?" but you're being so general that any explanation fits for this. You have to be more specific than that.

Let me ask you this. WHY is losing a stock due to Pictochat so much worse than your opponent being saved on Yoshi's? What is it that makes one unacceptable? Is it just the frequency at which it occurs? Is losing a stock somehow inherently worse than your opponent having his stock saved?
Let me answer this for the 11th time now. You can control the single random variable (or two if you count the ghost on the other side) over a WELL-DEFINED SPACE with no warning, but you cannot control the 27/29 or whatever random variables that creates walls, hitboxes, or drastic terrain effects with no warning to which one is coming.

I am pretty sure having conflicting transformations (cannot prepare for that many at once without being screwed for others) combined with the frequency of encounter (you will probably see over 10 transformations in a match, and they're always there. You are not battling over that small space on YI for that long in a match)

You can't look at the situation as "lose stock" "save stock." You have to look at the random events themselves and their group sum of interference in a match and the amount of mitigation that could be achieved from someone who knows the stage well. I believe frequency and severity of random punishment both are pretty strong factors, but you need to analyze their combination.
 

T-block

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@MK26: I know randomness is everywhere in Brawl. That's kinda one of my main points ._. I would never claim that Delfino, Frigate, or Lylat are worse than Pictochat in terms of randomness. I wouldn't even claim that Yoshi's is worse than Pictochat. But it's not worse because of frequency, a concept that was surprisingly dismissed early in this argument.

@san (and MK26): I think being so general is perfectly fine in this case. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I view the fact that an event happens over a well-defined space as arbitrary, and I don't see why it matters. I look at the overall outcome, because when all is said and done, that's what really matters. You continue to dive into specifics, while I continue to say the specifics are irrelevant, so I don't see this getting anywhere.

Just a general comment... in case it wasn't already clear, my approach to Pictochat has never been to flat-out say "just deal with the randomness". If we are going to say "how often it happens doesn't matter - what matters is that it can happen", I really think that the comparison to Yoshi's Island holds strongly, and that any differences between the two are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I feel that the difference between the two is frequency - how often Yoshi's changes things versus how often Pictochat changes things - which is why I opened with trying to show Pictochat's unfortunate events don't occur all that often. However, "how often" was quickly dismissed, which really surprised me. If someone were to say "your comparison is invalid because things happen on pictochat far more often than yoshi's", I would be forced to say "i don't think that's true, but i can't prove it", because if it were objectively true, it would be a fine way to destroy the comparison's validity.
 

san.

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T-Block, I don't even know if you're pro-ban on Pictochat or not, so imo we're just discussing our thoughts on randomness in stages by the way.


When I said frequency, I said frequency of encounter. Having YI's random events over a well-defined space allows you to increase/decrease this frequency of encounter as you see fit.
Singles matches with MK for instance you won't see saves by the ghost very often by an MK with a brain.



You cannot avoid encountering the plethora of... stuff .. Picto throws at you.
 

MK26

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i think you misunderstood - if you say frequency doesnt matter, then yoshi's is about the same as those stages i listed, including, however illogically, smashville.

a counterpoint would be that it's not the frequency with which it actually does occur, but the frequency with which it might occur. that would invalidate my smashville example, as the importance of the initial position of the platform decreases exponentially as the match goes on. on the other hand, that would also certify a divide between picto and the others, via the area over which the outcome can be affected.
 

T-block

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It wasn't clear that I am against banning Pictochat? x.x The whole reason I'm even talking about Yoshi's is because I'm comparing it to Pictochat... I don't think we should ban Yoshi's or anything lol

MK is not the best example, because he is less affected by the platform saving his opponent, as you've said. What does Ike do? He can b-air, but if your opponent is shielding, it's not like he can take advantage of the edge slip. Sheik almost relies on gimping to stay in the game. With these characters, it becomes random whether the save occurs or not. Yes, you could say it's the fault of the character for not being able to guarantee the stock, but the fault is there. Looking past that "fault", there is a strong random factor in this stage.

i think you misunderstood - if you say frequency doesnt matter, then yoshi's is about the same as those stages i listed, including, however illogically, smashville.
Yeah I agree. Frequency has to matter. Yet initially, my first post was refuted by saying frequency doesn't matter.

a counterpoint would be that it's not the frequency with which it actually does occur, but the frequency with which it might occur. that would invalidate my smashville example, as the importance of the initial position of the platform decreases exponentially as the match goes on. on the other hand, that would also certify a divide between picto and the others, via the area over which the outcome can be affected.
An interesting idea, although you make it sound as if handcrafting and adjusting a criterion just to fit what you've already decided. Can you actually justify that beyond saying "this makes the choices i have already made make sense"? I'm not sold on dismissing the frequency with which it does occur in favour of the frequency with which it might occur.
 

san.

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Ike has the option to spike the opponent down. If Ike is onstage, he can ftilt.

I wasn't sure whether you were arguing for picto because you weren't really arguing about it most of this discussion and all of your Picto arguments were shot down by BSP.

You were trying to make a point that quite frankly does not work..
 

T-block

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BSP misunderstood a lot of my arguments.. I'm still waiting to hear his response to my response.

My point does work... you just need to step back and view the bigger picture. But I understand not everyone is willing to do that, and I don't fault you for not seeing things my way or anything =\
 

MK26

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Yeah I agree. Frequency has to matter. Yet initially, my first post was refuted by saying frequency doesn't matter.

An interesting idea, although you make it sound as if handcrafting and adjusting a criterion just to fit what you've already decided. Can you actually justify that beyond saying "this makes the choices i have already made make sense"? I'm not sold on dismissing the frequency with which it does occur in favour of the frequency with which it might occur.
ah

i was under the assumption that you agreed with 'frequency does not matter' and was countering that
 

san.

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T-block, whenever I gave my side of the argument, all you've done was shut your ears and ignore my argument.



Anyways, how does 'this stage affects an MU'

correlate to being against the ban of a stage?
 

Tagxy

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Safe zone doesn't work. If you're assuming the left portion of the ground. If I am Ike and I grab you, I can hope the whale, boxes, ship, or line comes up so I can wall CG you until 180.
Did you read my post? Fail to keep your opponent out of the ghost zone = your fault if the person gets saved.
lmao at this contradiction. I guess you cant lose if you argue both sides! :awesome: Pretty this was what OS was talking about.
 

san.

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lmao at this contradiction. I guess you cant lose if you argue both sides! :awesome: Pretty this was what OS was talking about.
Seriously?

How does it contradict? Me grabbing before the transformation was one instance. I could even just be standing there when the transformation comes, or if the other person is in the middle of being hit with no idea that the transformation is coming.

Let's say we're at pictochat. I just got up from the left ledge. OS's MK tries to punish and miss. I jab. The same time I jab, the boxes come up. Now I am free to grab OS (can't DI away because of box walls) and fthrow him to 150 for the kill. He was still in the safe zone. Why isn't he safe from a random transition STILL screwing him over? Picto's hitbox transitions aren't even the only problem.

Change this to ship, line, w/e.

Change Ghost Zone in "Fail to keep your opponent out of the ghost zone = your fault if the person gets saved."

to Pictochat: "Fail to keep your opponent out of Pictochat = your fault if the person gets saved."
How do you get out of Pictochat? The zone I was talking about refers to pretty much all of Pictochat, while it refers to two tiny lines at YI. Also you are free to turn "saved" to saved or screwed over.

The only resolution I could think of is that it's their fault they chose Pictochat.
 

Tagxy

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Alright SO! I want to come up with a serious set of criteria for what we use to judge the quality of a stage. Ex: Degree of randomness, level interaction, Stalling capabilities, etc. This is a very rough draft for now, lol

Im going to do a sample here starting with the assumption that a stage is good until proven bad. So in the following list, Im going to list similar qualities we find in each stage. Feel free to request adding whatever.

Battlefield: No level interaction
FD: Overpowered characters (ICs, Diddy, etc.)
SV: Minimal level interaction, slightly overpowered character (ICs, Diddy, etc.)
YI: Heavy random factor (ghost timing), minimal level interaction (moving platform, shy guys)
Lylat: Moderate level interaction (edges/platform movement)
PS1: Moderate level interaction
PS2: Heavy level interaction
DP: Temporary walk offs, level movement
Luigis: Cave, moderate level interaction
MushKing: Walk offs, blastzone movement
MarioCirc: Walk offs, Moderate hazards
RumbleF: blastzone movement, temporary walk offs
BridgeE: Walk offs, minimal hazards
PirateShip: Heavy Hazards, heavy level interaction, blastzone movement
Norfair: Heavy Hazards
Frigate: Heavy random factor (timing), minimal level interaction
Halberd: Heavy Hazards, moderate level interaction, slight random factors, level movement
SPillar: Cave, extreme level interaction, extreme hazards, heavy random factor
PortTAD: Extreme hazards, level movement, temporary walk offs
CS: Heavy level interaction
WarioW: Extreme random factors (spatial, timing), moderate level interaction, Extreme hazards
DistantP: Moderate level interaction, walk off, moderate hazards
NPorkcity: Cave, minimal level interaction, heavy hazard, circle camp friendly
Summit: Extreme hazards, extreme level interaction, cave, circle camp friendly etc
Skyworld: Cave, moderate level interaction
75m: Extreme level interaction, heavy random factors (timing), extreme hazards, circle camp friendly
Mario Bros: Cave, extreme hazards, random factors (timing), circle camp friendly
Flat Zone 2: Walk offs, moderate level interaction, extreme hazards
Pictochat: Random Factors (spatial), moderate hazards, heavy level interaction
Hanenbow: minimal level interaction, entirely platforms?
ShadowMI: Cave
GreenHZ: Walkoffs
Temple: Cave, Circle camp friendly
YoshisI(M): Walkoff, minimal level interaction
Jungle Japes: Extreme Hazards, heavy level interaction
Onett: Walk offs, moderate level interaction
Corneria: Cave, moderate hazards
Rainbow Cruise: Moving Blastzone, temporarily entirely platforms, Overpowered character
Green Greens: Heavy level interaction, Heavy random factor (time,spactial)
Big Blue: Blastzone movement, heavy level interaction\
Brinstar: Moderate Hazards, extreme level interaction, minimal level movement, Heavy Overpowered Character


I might not have listed everything, but I was just trying to find some commonality in stages that are banned.

And as a side note Level interaction = platform movement, things that interrupt attacks/projectiles, stage changes that arent movement, etc.

Conclusion: Here are the things people really seem to hate. Caves, Blastzone movement, circle camping, walkoffs, and heavy random factors that include both timing and spatial elements (but not solely one or the other). These qualities can account for almost all banned stages.

The only stages that are banned and do not contain these are Norfair, PTAD, Hanenbrow, Jungle Japes. Of those four; Norfair, PTAD, and Jungle Japes all have hazards that feasibly can kill at extremely low percents; or what I would call Heavy hazards.

Some things I wanted to draw attention to. Hanenbrow has almost nothing in common with any of the other stages banned. The only thing I could sort of find was that it was entirely platforms, which is a coincidence it shares with Rainbow Cruise.

Speaking of Rainbow Cruise, it's the only stage we tolerate with a moving blast zone.

Lastly regarding walk-offs...only reason I can think of for not wanting walk offs was that it caused certain characters to be overpowered....yet we allow certain other stages to exist in spite of this :glare:

Anyways, Ill try to clean this up later.
 

Overswarm

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@Overswarm: I think we have a disconnect in communication. No idea what you mean, lol.
I believe anyone can control any random (?? are there many?) aspect in all of those stages.
They can't control when the ghost comes up.

Do you mean anticipate and react? I do the same on pictochat
 

san.

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By control, I mean that they have the capability override the ghost's existence. In other words you can be skillful enough to the point where the ghosts coming up is minimal.

You ruin the chance of the ghost being able to save anyone if you gimp them farther than the ghosts can reach.


We can try to anticipate and react on Picto, but anticipating one thing may lead you to getting messed up by another.
 

Browny

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wow OS if you can anticipate all the possible formations and react well before they happen such as to avoid them, surely you can anticipate every players moves an entire second in advance and JV4 them all right?
 

san.

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To break it down as simple as I can:

On YI you can easily:
prepare, expect, minimize, and avoid the random elements in YI.


Prepare: When you or your opponent are near where the ghost can pop up, you can prepare for its possibility.
Expect: You expect the ghost to possibly pop up in that exact area offstage.

Minimize: Gimp away from the stage, or towards the walls of the stage
Avoid: Killing off the sides/off the top




Picto, you can't do ANY of these to a reasonable degree.

Prepare: When you are on the left side, Prepare for Line, spikes on the side, whale, spikes from ground, ship, boxes, springs, cart, face wind, clock, diagonal walls.
When you are on the right side prepare for whale, head, face wind, side spikes, ground spikes, ship, boxes, missiles, springs, clock, diagonal walls.
When you are in the air prepare for fire, line, boxes, missiles, spikes from ground, side spikes, platforms popping up, diagonal walls, clock, cart, plant

There are more I miss but there's like 10% chance of guessing right at each location.

Expect: Any of these can come up randomly. Many transformations occupy the same space, too. You won't be sure what space will be safe at a certain time.

Minimize: The most you can do is be in the safe zone and avoid getting hit at all. Therefore, you only need to worry about troublesome walls and stage hazards that are woefully close to you. Walls popping up/the spikes could mean massive punishment.

Avoid: You can't avoid a transition right when it pops up if it's a wall. If it's a hazard, you have a brief time to avoid it. Hazards are much harder to avoid if you are in the air. Imagine getting sent offstage, then the side spikes come up. Sometimes you can't avoid it if you get hit right where it spawns at the moment it spawns.

This is all on the defensive side.


In 1v1, Picto is capable from turning a possible punishments into safe passes or vice versa. If someone is getting juggled, one person hopes for platforms to save them, while the other person hopes the missiles/walls/clock/line/fire/cart/spikes from ground don't impede his choice of chasing his opponent in the air. There's too many variables to expect someone to handle.
 

Bizkit047

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Note: The following is just my opinions and take on the controversial issues people have been bringing up. None of this is official from the BBR-RC.

So since the BBR-RC is a little slow on posting reasons for some of the more controversial rules and for some of the proposed rules, I'll try to ease the people who are wondering what exactly is going on.

*All Infinites are Legal*

This one will not change. It was completely unanimous to make all infinties legal. You either make all infinites legal, or you don't. Picking and choosing is extremely arbitrary. A moral standpoint makes you want to ban DDD's standing/small step infinites that he has on a very small portion of characters. But logically, you can't justify it other than saying "It's pretty easy to do and it's really lame." It does suck that DK and Bowser suddenly become slightly less unviable than they already were, but that's just the matchup. I definitely can't see this rule ever changing unless an infintie is discovered that changes the metagame into "use this infinite or you won't win."

*SD Moves Goes by game*

This one also disappoints players, seemingly only the Ganon mains. This rule changes the artificial buff on characters where the suicide initiator was declared the winner, despite what the game says. It does make sense that all of these moves are quite easily avoidable, so a player falling into them is entirely their fault, but it does not excuse the fact that a rule like that is arbitrary and gives artificial buffs to characters that goes against what the game decides the winner is.

The argument that Ganon should be given an exception because his move is random is also arbitrary and does not make sense when you consider that if it's known that a Ganoncide is random with the outcome, then the players know full well in advance that either using the move or running into the move could work against them.

*LGL 35 MK 50 Everyone Else*

Considering the old commonly used LGL for 35-40 for everyone was used, this is an improvement. The rule itself is a little hypocritical and hard to fully justify, but the nearly unanimous decision that MK is broken on the ledge warrants his ledge grabs having to be limited.

However, the real issue is with the rest of the cast being limited. It is not fair to limit the entire cast to a LGL as low as MK's, when even some characters are not the least bit broken on the ledge. The real problem lies with just how much of a problem are the other characters? It's clear that MK needs far less LGs due to not even really needing LGs to time out. But the LGL doesn't target time out, it targets broken stalling. The BBR-RC decided on this rule as a starting point for a LGL. I'm sure this rule will end up changing after some tourneys are ran with it. 50 is likely too low as it is for most characters, but removing it completely from non-MK characters creates the backlash you saw with Will Vs Rich Brown. This specific LGL is a good starting mid point between "no LGL for all non-MK characters" and "35 for everyone".

What I would love to see is video evidence of the argued ledge broken characters being stopped by more than 2-3 characters during planking. Seeing how each character on the roster can deal with each argued broken planking character's planking would be amazing evidence for or against this rule. I feel as though someone like GIMR could accomplish a project like this best, since his Metagame Minute episodes are incredibly well done and accurate.


*STAGES*

First and foremost, it's virtually impossible to get everyone to truly agree to a stage list 100%. Secondly, the stage list was made BEFORE all the current BBR-RC members were added. Because of this, I can't tell you exactly why Japes or Norfair or some crazy stage isn't added. But I can shed some light on some of the other situations that people are bringing up.

*Pictochat Legality*

This is easily the most glaring problem with the stage list. What I can say right now is that the BBR-RC is currently re-discussing this stage, and voting seems like it'll happen within a week. With all the current members, it seems like the majority is going against the stage.

In the TOs defense for whoever voted for this stage, at first glace, Pictochat isn't a terribly bad looking stage. Keep in mind this stage list was made months ago, before the two most recent nationals. I see many players refer to Pictochat as "a bigger FD." So if you take that into account, it's not surprising that it was made legal months ago when the BBR-RC was first announced. Should it have been re-discussed before release? Yes, but doing so would just delay the ruleset from initial release. What would stop us from re-discussing the entire stage list? IMO, first we deal with the most controversial stage first before moving onto other issues...

*PS2 is legal?*

At first glace, this stage seems messy. Physic changes aren't normal to competitive Brawl. However, unlike Pictochat, nothing on this stage is random and all transitions are adaptable. Furthermore, the transitions that may not benefit your character in a MU can be easily camped out just as most players do on PS1 during most of the transitions, as approaching is incredibly unsafe in those situations. What's even better is that the neutral state of the stage is better than on PS1, due to the ledges not having the ability to gimp certain characters. Even during DM's Skype Ruleset Discussion, the majority wanted this stage. So this stage won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

*Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar, Can't have Both?*

I have a feeling this wasn't even brought up initially. But it might have been, I'm not sure. What was more interesting was last night during DM's Skype Ruleset Discussion, when we got to this part, we were all drawing blanks. The stages alone are hard to justify banning. Which do you choose? Rainbow or Brinstar? The reason people want one of the two stages gone is because of MK having technically a free counterpick with both on the same stage list. But out of everyone in the discussion, no one really could figure out which should go over the other, and it ended up with both staying. There are more alternate suggestions, such as having two bans or limiting MK only further, but that's a whole other discussion.

*FD as a starter?*

This was discussed during the starter stages being put together. It was pretty split from what I remember, but it was decided against on the initial release to help have the ruleset be taken more seriously. Yes, it means if you're fighting Diddy, ICs, or Falco you're almost guaranteed game 1 to be on BF. But for the time being until it can be better discussed it's a better alternative than having the ruleset looked at as too extreme for removing a starter stage that has been used as a starter in just about every single Brawl tourney to date. But do not worry, this will be discussed more in future updates.

*Aw man, no more Japes or Norfair?*

Not necessarily. While at this point there's no discussion going on for adding Japes and Norfair, there's no reason why it won't be re-discussed after Pictochat.

Remember, this is all my opinion and take on it. Most of it is easily accurate anyway, but some of the specific reasoning for a rule may be a tad off. Regardless, there's no need to try and dissect this post since it's not official. Just typed it up to help people relax about some of the issues they have with the ruleset instead of having absolutely no reasoning behind it being known.
 

Overswarm

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Yeah, no. That doesn't fly.

I know the spawns, I know what can spawn, and I know how pictochat works. Given the fact you're also given a full second warning in a game of frame-specific reactions, I'm just gonna go ahead and say you need to get better.
 

san.

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You're speaking as though I lose on Pictochat. Ike is quite decent there. The only reason I want it banned is because I took the time to understand the stage as much as I can, and its broken aspects became more and more apparent. I used to be neutral on the stage in the past. I won't ask for a stage to be banned because I'm bad at it. A bad stage is a bad stage, and it's easy to prove it.

The full second warning only works on a few transformations, and only for hitboxes. You are given a split second warning on all of the walls and platforms, which could be much more detrimental. You also have to basically guess the entire match. Just luck.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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You're speaking as though I have problems playing on Pictochat. The only reason I want it banned is because I took the time to understand the stage as much as I can. I won't ask for a stage to be banned because I'm bad at it. A bad stage is a bad stage, and it's easy to prove it.

The full second warning only works on a few transformations, and only for hitboxes. You are given a split second warning on all of the walls and platforms, which could be much more detrimental. You also have to basically guess the entire match. Just luck.
Oy.

So let me get this straight:

A platform appearing in two separate locations is fine, because it's only one thing you have to remember.

But when multiple things can happen, it's too confusing?

Because you've changed your argument multiple times throughout your posts and it's pretty evident you are wanting pictochat banned and are changing your argument to suit that purpose.

There is literally no difference to pictochat's transformation and yoshi's island ghosts. They can both end and save stocks, and both can change the tide of the match. The 'how' isn't even important; it's the fact that it does.

You say that a split second warning isn't enough, but I've played the stage multiple times and know that yes, it is enough.

Not only that, but you know where they wlil spawn in advance. The games played on pictochat between people that know it is a battle for position. They want the safe zones so they can be in a good position.
 

John12346

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*Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar, Can't have Both?*

I have a feeling this wasn't even brought up initially. But it might have been, I'm not sure. What was more interesting was last night during DM's Skype Ruleset Discussion, when we got to this part, we were all drawing blanks. The stages alone are hard to justify banning. Which do you choose? Rainbow or Brinstar? The reason people want one of the two stages gone is because of MK having technically a free counterpick with both on the same stage list. But out of everyone in the discussion, no one really could figure out which should go over the other, and it ended up with both staying. There are more alternate suggestions, such as having two bans or limiting MK only further, but that's a whole other discussion.
I actually want to pitch a few ideas on this one... I tried shooting them yesterday, but no one was really paying attention to me... :(

Okay, so think about it like this, there are quite a few options to fix this, such as:
- Arbitrary nerf on MK's counterpicking options (surgical nerfs generally aren't a good idea)
- Two stage bans (some argue this helps MK more than it hurts him, because he can remove FD and Picto now)
- Banning MK (possible solution, but would resolve with a LOT of *****ing)

But this idea also came to mind:
- You can ban one stage, or you can ban Brinstar AND Rainbow Cruise during the counterpick process.

How's that?
 

Life

Smash Hero
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But this idea also came to mind:
- You can ban one stage, or you can ban Brinstar AND Rainbow Cruise during the counterpick process.
Slight edit:

"If a player chooses to ban Brinstar, he may also ban Rainbow Cruise in the same set, and vice-versa"

Just makes it a little less ambiguous that you don't have to ban both, which is important for certain characters (Sonic is one--Brinstar is generally his worst stage but he's fairly decent on RC)
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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@Overswarm
When you respond to me, can you actually respond to my specific arguments regarding YI so I don't have to state the same thing over and over?


So let me get this straight:

A platform appearing in two separate locations is fine, because it's only one thing you have to remember.

But when multiple things can happen, it's too confusing?
It's not about having to remember. Where they're spatial positioning, their function, etc all matter. These functions are very limited in YI. That's why they're legal.

Because you've changed your argument multiple times throughout your posts and it's pretty evident you are wanting pictochat banned and are changing your argument to suit that purpose.
If I changed my argument, please tell me.
My argument: Zone of Picto encompasses all of stage. Control variables luck reliant not skill reliant.
I've been trying to argue against topics that have only been speaking mumbo jumbo ("It only matters if a stage affects an MU!" ME: "WTH???")

There is literally no difference to pictochat's transformation and yoshi's island ghosts. They can both end and save stocks, and both can change the tide of the match. The 'how' isn't even important; it's the fact that it does.
You can play in a way on YI where ghosts are a non-issue (gimp away from ghosts). You can't do this in Picto. You can make it so you don't have to worry about the ghosts. There is only a tiny bit of space where you do. You haven't proven me wrong in that regard. YI is a ludicrous stage to compare to Picto, anyways.

All I see is "Nuhuh!" The how isn't important? Prove it! None of you guys directly responded to my arguments. Parroting T-block's post that I have yet to get a good response from isn't doing anything.

You say that a split second warning isn't enough, but I've played the stage multiple times and know that yes, it is enough.
I've played on this stage against many high-top level players, and no, it isn't enough. Welp, I gave as much proof as you did. But then there are the myriad of videos in previous posts. Where is your video of these magical matches?

Not only that, but you know where they wlil spawn in advance. The games played on pictochat between people that know it is a battle for position. They want the safe zones so they can be in a good position.
Yep. In front of you, behind you, above you. Some transformations require the same response, others wildly varying responses. There is no safe zone on Picto. Is it a safe zone if a wall can spawn right next to you? (Walls appear before drawings are finished).
 
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Can I ban FD and SV against characters that excel on grounded combat?

Ughhh ninja'd.
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
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But this idea also came to mind:
- You can ban one stage, or you can ban Brinstar AND Rainbow Cruise during the counterpick process.

How's that?
Not a good idea. Just because they're MK's two best stages doesn't mean other characters who are legitimately good here should get screwed out of the ability to CP one.
 

MK26

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@Bizkit: in regards to FD being a starter: very few if any of us in here have qualms with FD being a starter in a 7- (or 9-)stage list. It's the combination of FD being present and players only having 4 other starters to choose from that's the problem, not either one them by themselves (hey, that sounds like brinstar/rc!)

and personally, i am open to having two stage bans, but part of me also thinks 'dont hate on mk because he ***** on his cps'
like, if we played without stage bans, and someone brought up the concept of the stage ban, the discussion would inevitably end up as 'it's useless, why would you let mk ban your best stage while he has two equally good ones to choose from, and he'll just destroy you on the one you dont ban?'
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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I'd rather the starter list be expanded to 7 and keep FD in that.

Brinstar/RC issue is a big grey area for me. Personally, I have no qualms fighting MK on these stages but I guess other people are really frustrated about it.
 

Orion*

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...Your point? Replace MK with Wario, or G&W, or any other character with similar stage pick patterns. Yeah, it might not be an issue for MK, but Wario? Furthermore, it's simply unfair in principle-MK is amazing, don't nerf him arbitrarily. And if you're going to nerf him arbitrarily, do it in a way that doesn't make the overall balance of the game suffer. Make it so that he has to strike half as many stages as the opponent or something. Not that the entire stage striking system is unbalanced.
Wario does fine as well as pretty much any other tournament viable character on a nuetral stage vs ice climbers. Same goes for diddy, mk, snake, falco, marth, pretty much a non trash character.

Nobody is nerfing anyone, and nobody is seriously unbalanced.

For now, the matchup numbers are considered fairly constant. Can they change? Of course. If they do, we change the starter list to reflect the new developments. We don't keep the starter list as is in the blind hopes that **** will change to the way we hope they will, we keep our rulesets flexible to new data.
WHAT DATA.

thats the problem

its like, oh I see a rise in mks winning on CPs lets make FD a neutral again, or WAIT I see falco winning more lets make brinstar a starter.

Thats ******** LOOOL

Obviously a ruleset is supposed to be flexible to a changing metagame, but if your ruleset already has to change just based on MU numbers then theres already a problem.

You know what? I'm not even going to bother with this tired argument. This way of thought leads to the idea of an FD-only stagelist and is not a good thing. :glare:

Too tired/late/busy to be less salty than this atm.
Nobodys talking about an FD only stage list, in fact LOL at you using that as an argument. Im saying why not have FD as a starter, rather than you who wants to abolish the thing completely.

Im drunk eating a microwaved kapsalon and I can already see whats wrong with this post
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
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I feel like you guys are looking at stages from a 2D perspective. You guys seem to be classifying stages into "aerial based" or "non-aerial based." When indeed, there are many other factors that apply to stages. This includes the overall geography and the structure in which the platforms are based. These affect the match-ups just as much as Final Destinations "flatness" affects other match-ups. The fact that Final Destination is "flat" just like any other stage being unique. Yoshi's Island has several random hurtboxes out during that match that some characters can abuse. Lylat constantly tilts during throughout the match. Should we ban Lylat for being unique and tilting during the match? I feel like considering Final Destination to not be a starter based on just being "flat" is a bad reason.
 

MK26

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it's not 'cp because it's flat', its 'cp because its very polarizing in favour of ground-based characters, who can potentially get their best counterpick off a neutral, or can at least eat one of their opponent's strikes, which shouldnt really be able to occur and which doesnt do as much damage as soon as the neutral list is extended, so add 2 neutrals'

its just that all of ^ is a byproduct of it being flat.
 

T-block

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T-block, whenever I gave my side of the argument, all you've done was shut your ears and ignore my argument.



Anyways, how does 'this stage affects an MU'

correlate to being against the ban of a stage?
Whoa whoa... that is not how I want to be perceived. There's a difference between ignoring your argument and acknowledging your argument but claiming it's not what I care about.

I listened to your argument. Yoshi's Island's randomness is different from Pictochat's because on Yoshi's the randomness occurs in a well-defined area, and is much more easily reacted to and anticipated. On Pictochat, there are too many factors to easily anticipate and prepare for. Am I missing something?

But san, you are the one who seems to be not listening to my argument. The above paragraph is completely true. The platforms appear in only two areas, while Pictochat can affect all areas of the stage. There's no denying that, and I never attempted to argue against it. If you were to judge how "bad" randomness is based on that, then there's no comparison... Yoshi's doesn't even come close to what Pictochat can do.

My question is, why are we judging how "bad" randomness is based on that? I already showed that just because it can be anticipated doesn't mean it can't drastically change the match. You responded with "it's the character's fault", and I don't think that is a legitimate response.

If it can be anticipated, but still returns a stock, is that really much better than if it cannot be anticipated, but returns a stock?

My answer to that question would be no. You can probably land an additional hit, but that is nowhere near enough consolation for having a stock given back to your opponent.
 

BSP

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Tblock, san said anything I probably would have said, and maybe even better.

But still on FD: the community understands that a lack of something...is still something right?

We understand how FD can favor characters right?
 
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