The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Life]

Xdeath, Norfair doesn't have circle camping. It does have pretty strong air camping for Wario, but that's what the hazards are for.

I understand Hanenbow is a similar situation but without anything to counterbalance the runaway game.

 

[NO-IDea]

Not going to post much more than this (it's too hard to keep up with the conversation here.)

Yes, FD can favor characters. Every stage will favor a character. I'm glad you want to point out what is fact, but the application of that fact is moot. For because all stages give advantages/disadvantages to a character, no stage is in essence balanced.

You can attempt to provide balanced group of stages (the starter stages.) Quite frankly, especially when there is the ability to stage strike, I don't see the issue of leaving FD as a starter stage.

In my personal experience (therefore up to debate because it isn't hard data (even though there is very little hard data here)), MKs are the one to strike FD. I feel as if removing it from the starter list strengthens MK's tournament viability even more.

Just something to think about.

 

[san.]

Ah, okay T-block. When people start using words in your argument word for word, you start to mix people up. It's just that since you're arguing against banning Picto, a lot of what I think are decent arguments against that aren't really being responded to, lol.

My question is, why are we judging how "bad" randomness is based on that? I already showed that just because it can be anticipated doesn't mean it can't drastically change the match. You responded with "it's the character's fault", and I don't think that is a legitimate response.

If it can be anticipated, but still returns a stock, is that really much better than if it cannot be anticipated, but returns a stock?

Does it matter that this event can be controlled to not happening? it's kind of like jumping on Frigate during the transformation without having to bother with transition shenanigans. (You can get grabbed, but if you're already in the air that's not an issue). When frigate changes, it doesn't really tell you when it will switch in the match, but it gives you all the time in the world to deal with it when it's about to.

I admit it can be a bit of a challenge to fully keep an opponent away from that zone if you aren't using a gimp-oriented character. That's where skill is factored in: keeping them away from that area if you wish to gimp them. I cannot find such reasoning with Pictochat.

The reason why players are okay with scripted/timed events is because they are then able to be utilized, making the hazard less of an issue. If the issue can be played around anways (like gimping a character away from the platform on YI) regardless of randomness, I view it as something similar to the above example. Meaning skill can overcome being in such a situation where the opponent can be saved.

What I'm looking for is proof of the strategy to playing around Pictochat. OS has stated that he can, but I need him or someone who is willing to show this.

 

[NO-IDea]

In short, and I don't want to speak on behalf of San but simplify the argument:

T-Block asks:

"If it can be anticipated, but still returns a stock, is that really much better than if it cannot be anticipate, but returns a stock?"

The answer to that question is yes. And San provide his reasoning in the post.

"... skill can overcome being in such situation..."

Most importantly because the hazard can be "anticipated."

If there were a consistent way to anticipate the changes on Pictochat, there would be less argument over the legality of it.

 

[BSP]

Not going to post much more than this (it's too hard to keep up with the conversation here.)

Yes, FD can favor characters. Every stage will favor a character. I'm glad you want to point out what is fact, but the application of that fact is moot. For because all stages give advantages/disadvantages to a character, no stage is in essence balanced.

Do all of our starters skew MU ratios as much as FD? You're right that each stage will have an effect, but I'm sure we can find a better alternative to FD.

You can attempt to provide balanced group of stages (the starter stages.) Quite frankly, especially when there is the ability to stage strike, I don't see the issue of leaving FD as a starter stage.

Ok, with striking, I don't see the problem with having brinstar or RC as a starter either. Strike it. If we have one side of the spectrum favored, we need to other too.

In my personal experience (therefore up to debate because it isn't hard data (even though there is very little hard data here)), MKs are the one to strike FD. I feel as if removing it from the starter list strengthens MK's tournament viability even more.

Once again, if we are trying to use our entire ruleset to limit MK (lol), banning RC and Brinstar or providing two stage bans would do a much better job than keeping FD.

 

[Tesh]

What NOID said is a great reason to move up to 7 stage or 9 stage starter lists. Striking is a process to determine the middle ground. To figure out what is truly "neutral" for two players out of the options available.

 

[Reizilla]

San, you've earned more respect from me. I don't know how you could've put up with T-block's and Overswarm's stubborn trolling for so long.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

San, you've earned more respect from me. I don't know how you could've put up with T-block's and Overswarm's stubborn trolling for so long.

He's on the same character board as me. All Ike mains have gained +10 resistance to annoying arguments because of it.

I'm on the "Pictochat should be legal" side, but I hate stage arguments. There is a reason I don't post in Stage Discussion anymore...

 

[T-block]

I fully agree that there is skill involved in continuing to edgeguard in case your opponent is saved by the platform. I also fully agree that such skill is not nearly as...well-defined on Pictochat, and I agree that it's because Pictochat affects things in various ways. However, my concern is not of skill.

Can we focus on the question? Something cannot be anticipated, and returns a stock. Another thing can be anticipated, but still returns a stock. In terms of randomness, is one really better than the other? Just because it can be anticipated, does that really make it that much better, even though the end result is the same, except maybe the opportunity to tack on another 10%?

In my opinion, it's not. I think it's a psychological thing. The platform saves your opponent and even though you hit him again, he makes it back this time and you think "ah...well that does happen - we know the platforms do pop up there". The Arrows spawn in front of you and you think "wow that's lame how was i supposed to predict that".

To go onto another tangent, addressing Pictochat directly:

Is it really that unreasonable to expect someone to prepare for every hazard? What if we played with complete respect to the stage? Ike grabs Charizard at the centre of the stage, facing right. Ike thinks:

• Possible walls: Arrows, Singer, Sailboat. I am facing the wrong way for Diagonal Line; I would be on the inside of the Whale; I won't be able to CG in Bricks
• Possible damaging hazards: Arrows is ideal... wall and then damage; Missiles... high reward in damage; Fire... low reward; Plant... medium reward; Cart will start on the left so that's out; Spikes is too far away

Honestly, I think this kinda of split-second analysis is very possible. Meanwhile, Charizard's overall strategy is to zone Ike when six seconds of blank time elapses, which is doable since there's so much space on Pictochat. He only needs to play carefully for a few seconds, and does his approaching during favourable or neutral drawings, and during the beginning of blank time.

Those arguments like "p1 gets grab, no reward, p2 gets same grab, combo into hazard" can also be applied to Yoshi's Island. Watch this match:

[yt]vk1oT4HzxRQ[/yt]

What if on the first stock, Marth had chosen to up-b the other way and hope for the platform? If it had saved him, he would have taken a hit from Ike but Marth was at 4%...he wouldn't have died. But it didn't. Then it chose to save Ike later. P1 would have died, no save, P2 would have died, save. I think they're pretty similar.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no1 read my post at the top.... im

however, i re-iterate.

all in favor of a 7-9 stage starter list say "always the pit mains"

if we all like something, why not advocate with the most effective way to state it? why would all say "I" when we could accomplish 2 things, let the TOs know that we want a 7+ starter list, and that for some reason pit mains always have been, and always will be involved

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Actually, I do have one comment for the Pictochat argument: is it possible to compare how many times YI:B either saves or kills somebody compared to how many times Pictochat does the same? I'm not sure how you could go about it, sampling size, ect, but if the percents were very similar (Say, within 5%?), wouldn't that kinda render the whole "It's not the same as YI:B, it's not as predictable" point rather weak?

 

[N.O.T.A.-SrsC@]

I only disagree with splitting being against the rules. No particular problem else-wise.

 

[fUddO]

"always the pit mains"

lolpit

 

[BSP]

I fully agree that there is skill involved in continuing to edgeguard in case your opponent is saved by the platform. I also fully agree that such skill is not nearly as...well-defined on Pictochat, and I agree that it's because Pictochat affects things in various ways. However, my concern is not of skill.

That's a problem. Isn't the point of a tournament to figure out who has the most skill?

To go onto another tangent, addressing Pictochat directly:

Is it really that unreasonable to expect someone to prepare for every hazard?

Definitely during recovery and when making decisions. See kismet vs Lou.

Those arguments like "p1 gets grab, no reward, p2 gets same grab, combo into hazard" can also be applied to Yoshi's Island.

Only when the situation involves recovering. With Pictochat, it pretty much applies to anything. Show Yoshi's interfering with CGs, rewarding some grabs center stage and not others, vertical KOs, infinites, spacing, etc.

 

[T-block]

It's not as well-defined - doesn't mean it's not there.

Again, I don't see why we care that Yoshi's doesn't block CGs randomly when it can save stocks randomly. Seems arbitrary that you mention it specifically.

 

[BSP]

You're trying to equate or at least get Yoshi's in the same boat as Picto in terms of influencing the match. The fact that pictochat has a lot of other little or big, things it can do from anywhere on the stage besides taking stocks is a considerable difference between the stages IMO.

 

[Ripple]

t-block, I don't see why you keep bringing up arbitrary line. we HAVE to draw one somewhere, picto has too much random interference and YI has less so we find it acceptable.

edited

 

[T-block]

I can see that, Ripple. I can even accept that.

But the line would be drawn between the stages because of FREQUENCY. Pictochat is MORE LIKELY to affect the match than Yoshi's is.

The line is not drawn between the stages because the WAY Pictochat affects the match is somehow less acceptable than the WAY Yoshi's Island does.

So really, I don't know why I'm arguing anymore =) When I started defending the stage, I had no idea I would be in this discussion - I expected to be defending frequency.

 

[Esca]

Why cant people split pot?

 

[NO-IDea]

Do all of our starters skew MU ratios as much as FD? You're right that each stage will have an effect, but I'm sure we can find a better alternative to FD.



Ok, with striking, I don't see the problem with having brinstar or RC as a starter either. Strike it. If we have one side of the spectrum favored, we need to other too.



Once again, if we are trying to use our entire ruleset to limit MK (lol), banning RC and Brinstar or providing two stage bans would do a much better job than keeping FD.

Does FD really skewer MU ratios? To answer this question, you have to compare it to something else. More so than the other current starters? What characters benefit so heavily from keeping a FD a starter? Falco (I thought BF was his best stage)? Diddy? Sonic?

The difference between FD and stages like RC and Brinstar is that FD doesn't disable options. RC and Brinstar, with their heavy emphasis on aerial combat, do.

Furthermore, you have used an extreme. Rarely do extremes work to convince others. More often they bring about skepticism. In this case, you suggested Brinster and RC as starters:

• How are they "the other side of the spectrum?" I didn't think FD was so far off to one side. On the other hand, RC and Brinstar shut down and severely limit the options of a majority of characters.
• The point of starter stages is to provide a net balance of stages. If you agree that RC and Brinstar are extremes of one spectrum but cannot sufficiently defend FD as the other, it wouldn't create a balanced starter list.

The idea of a ruleset isn't to remove the availability of options. It's to accurately limit them to fair use.

• We see this with the implementation of the LGL (to limit, not remove, what is proven by frame data the invincibility of MK's planking. However, for the sake of fairness in appearance, the LGL rule should be placed on every character then.)
• We see this with the illegality of certain stages because we cannot effectively limit them (circle camping on stages such as Hanenbow and Temple.)

Finally, I want to address the idea of stage striking. If we agree that no stage is balanced, but we can effectively provide a balanced group of stages, then the point of stage striking is to give the players the option to compromise what stage is within the best interests of both players. Thus, and I emphasize this, we should focus on ensuring the group of stages is balanced first. I don't see RC and Brinstar as balancing some other stage specifically because there aren't that many characters that can effectively play on it. FD... I can't think of one character that performs abnormally bad on it. I'm surprised to see people so passionate about the subject of changing FD into a counterpick and am still curious about the validity of their argument.

What NOID said is a great reason to move up to 7 stage or 9 stage starter lists. Striking is a process to determine the middle ground. To figure out what is truly "neutral" for two players out of the options available.

With that said, I wouldn't mind a 7-9 starter stage list. I am sure there are more stages than the current five that don't belong to any extreme (meaning they don't cater to characters by removing their options as heavily as RC and Brinster.)

 

[Reizilla]

I can see that, Ripple. I can even accept that.

But the line would be drawn between the stages because of FREQUENCY. Pictochat is MORE LIKELY to affect the match than Yoshi's is.

The line is not drawn between the stages because the WAY Pictochat affects the match is somehow less acceptable than the WAY Yoshi's Island does.

So really, I don't know why I'm arguing anymore =) When I started defending the stage, I had no idea I would be in this discussion - I expected to be defending frequency.

Actually, it is. The only way to combat some of Picto's transformations is "don't get hit." Which is an absolutely ridiculous precedent. Even then, just by "not getting hit" (by your opponent) at the same time could lead you to as much of a bad situation, based on the randomness of Pictochat and how unreasonable it is to prepare for every possible situation it can throw at you. Yoshi's is A or B, one of two things. You can fully mentally say, "I haven't taken this stock yet until he dies because there's a chance the ghost can save him, and I fully well know that while putting my opponent in this position," whereas in Picto if you try taking in every accountable transformation, you say, "Well, I can punish this move and knock him back so far, and there's a chance the spikes may appear and save him or spike him, or maybe the arrows will come up and kill him, or maybe they'll even kill me, or maybe I shouldn't punish at all because what if during my lag, the cart gets drawn and hits me, or what if the diagonal line gets drawn and separates us so I can't fully punish, or maybe the rotating platforms will come up and I can follow up, or maybe he'll get knocked into the piranha if I decide to do this instead..." you see where I'm going with this? There are just so many different, unreasonably unaccountable ways for the stage to interfere.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

so did you guys already discuss whether or not japes should be legal and why? i see so many well known names here and i know most of you don't know me but im basically the pit boards general research guy so i do have vast knowledge of stage and character capability. while in game im not as skilled i can at least back up a lot of my actually serious posts and at the same time acknowledge those who are better than me.

so if i may:

when compared to most stages japes is unique in that it's three main characteristics when determining the outcome of a MU are:

- the blast zone layout is unique in that it takes power away from those who are vertical based killers while granting those who are more horizantal based killers the edge they usually lack over vertical killers (i.e. pit vs snake, fox vs every1, game and watch to an extent)

-for those who have poor vertical but good horizantal recoveries, the bottom blast zone is no longer an issue giving them more options against what would normally be an easy gimp situation against them

-the platforms allow many characters to perform hard core king of the hill style camping.

it's disadvantages would be the clap trap (which is predictable as it comes out whenever the timer says 7 seconds, and the water dragging people out. honestly though those are skill based situations. any opinions

 

[san.]

The thing about Pictochat, is that the most damaging transformations are walls by far, then hazards. Because of these two types of transformations, even the mild transformations are negatively affected because that just adds to the overall chaos.

I may miss some because this is from memory

Walls:
spikes from ground, head, boxes, ship, whale, spikes on the side, diagonal lines, huge line, clock

Hazards:
spikes from ground, spikes to the side, plant, cart, missiles, fire

Platforms/no-harm
Everything else


Things to note to help with the stage:
There is a counter on the left side of the stage that counts the number of transformations. It counts all the way to the top.

It gives you a rough guess on how many transformations are left. By the time all transformations have come up, the bar on the left will be filled. I don't think the bar gets filled entirely in a regular match.

Transformations only come up once until all transformations have come up.

How to best traverse the stage:

Hazards are more avoidable since their hitboxes do not come back immediately. The only way I can see competent players get hit into it is if a player is grabbed, if he is hit then the hazard spawns in his vicinity, or if the hazard directly impedes a person's path.

Walls come up immediately. They can be the most dangerous with CGs, wall combos, etc. Walls can mess you up just for running and running into the wall. Some walls even block edges before you see it come out. Hazards with walls are by far the worst (hazards with spikes).


MATCH:
In the beginning of the match, everything is up in the air. You cannot predict what is coming next. It is easy to categorize each transformation in the list above to simplify matters. The goal would be to get past each harmful obstacle.

Every time a harmful obstacle is come across, you can wipe it off of the list. That is one less thing to worry about. More "safe" space is available to you, as long as you prepare for a few harmful obstacles. The more time that goes through the match, the better you can position yourself to isolate the harmful cases. Prediction is bearable after at least half of these harmful transformations have gone through as long as it's after the line+spikes transitions at the bare minimum.

The biggest problem I have is anticipating these transitions in the beginning half of the match. I named at least 13 things that really need to be watched out for. That's almost half of all the transformations.

 

[Ripple]

The difference between FD and stages like RC and Brinstar is that FD doesn't disable options. RC and Brinstar, with their heavy emphasis on aerial combat, do.

I find something wrong with this but I can't explain it. maybe the fact that your assuming that the "norm" or standard is a fd type level or ground combat.

IDT you can do that.

 

[T-block]

Here's an interesting question: if Pictochat could do all those things, but at a much slower rate, would it still be so bad? What we only saw on average four drawings per match? The timings would still be random, and the drawings chosen would be random. Is it still unacceptably random?

San, you have no idea how happy I am that you realize that walls are more dangerous than hazards <3 There's not much else to say - if you don't subscribe to my view on randomness, then I don't really have an answer to that.

 

[Gea]

Isn't it hypocritical to say FD shouldn't stay for the reason of "nerfing MK" when it's brought up just as frequently that the starter list should be some sort of arbitrary balance between "aerial and ground based stages?"

 

[NO-IDea]

Okay, let's drop the "nerf MK argument." I apologize for bringing it up.

I'm not defining any norm. I'm stressing the idea of "as balanced as possible." Aerial combat isn't shut down on FD. You see plenty of Aerial combat from the likes of MK/Marth and others on this stage.

Can you really argue the same for ground combat on RC and Brinstar? The entirety of RC is forcing you to move into the air. Brinstar has similar elements: extreme lack of permanent ground space (due to hazards). I'm not going to delve into straight floor and tilted floor because it would complicate the topic and I'm sure someone would bring YI's, a starter stage, into this. So let's not delve into that yet. I think my first reason is strong enough to separate FD from these two stages.

Just address my argument of how FD doesn't limit aerial combat, it just doesn't favor it, but RC and Brinstar limit ground combat and thus should stay as counterpicks compared to FD's starter status.

 

[Reizilla]

T-block, I can't answer your question because it's not applicable to the game. I know you're trying to prove the "frequency" point, but the thing is, that's only ONE part of what makes up the whole thing. The frequency, combined with how drastically many transformations can affect gameplay, combined with the randomness, etc. is what amounts to the whole. All of these factors are significantly lower on the other stages. Only one coming close would probably Norfair.

 

[T-block]

Hypotheticals still have a place in debate. But I'm not so much trying to prove a point as I am genuinely curious about how people perceive this stage.

 

[san.]

Here's an interesting question: if Pictochat could do all those things, but at a much slower rate, would it still be so bad? What we only saw on average four drawings per match? The timings would still be random, and the drawings chosen would be random. Is it still unacceptably random?

That is hard for me to answer. I would need to know a few things, though: What is the shortest possible time for a transformation to be out? What is the longest time? Through testing we can find a rough average, and that would be the time span to really watch out for. I think people can be wary for just 1 transformation for a few minutes at most.

I might be okay with it. People will be able to play safely for a much longer time span before the time of uncertainty arrives. But being on the spikes for a few minutes would be very very gay... EDIT: On second thought spikes on the ground for 3 minutes do not want LOL but that is just a problem made by the hypothesis, not from the current Picto.

Hypothetically, If transformations were 5 seconds to 5 minutes before the next one came though, I would probably consider that even worse than Picto.

San, you have no idea how happy I am that you realize that walls are more dangerous than hazards <3 There's not much else to say - if you don't subscribe to my view on randomness, then I don't really have an answer to that.

That was the main cause that brought me over the edge to pro-ban on Picto. I had assumed you had a second or so to react to each stage hazard, and used to be fine with its legality. I also believed in the safe zone. Little did I know...

I would like for as many stages to be legal as possible, but Picto is not letting me accept it.

 

[Reizilla]

Ah, my apologies then, I fully expected an attempt to catch someone in a "so it IS frequency" thing, or whatever. I guess serious debates do that x)

but yes, like San said, you'd have to be specific, and even then, it turns into the whole "when does a mound become a mountain?," ordeal. Which is why I like to avoid hypothetical situations becuase it is, in fact, what it is, really.

 

[T-block]

@San: and that is why I can actually respect your opinion.

Let's say the transformation is only out on average 10 seconds, just like actual Pictochat. There is a 1:00 to 2:00 between transformations, so not really predictable at all. Let's even take out some of the more passive transformations... Umbrella, House, Sheep, Eyes are gone, so it's even more likely the drawing will mess with things.

 

[Sails]

I saw something a few pages back about 7 stage neutrals, and having attended a 7 stage neutral tournament once, it really hurts Diddy Kong. It would be the nail in the coffin for a lot of Diddy mains.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I saw something a few pages back about 7 stage neutrals, and having attended a 7 stage neutral tournament once, it really hurts Diddy Kong. It would be the nail in the coffin for a lot of Diddy mains.

It does not "hurt" Diddy.
It just happens that 3-5 Starters helps him too much.

 

[T-block]

It doesn't put any nails in Diddy's coffin lol... PS1 is a good Diddy stage, and that tends to be included in 7-starter lists.

One thing I did notice is that 9-starter is hilarious bad for Diddy against Dedede >_>

 

[NO-IDea]

T-Block: Your purpose of using hypothetical situations is so we can analyze and compare them to what Pictochat currently is, perhaps give us a deeper understanding and a better informed idea of the "balance" of the stage, right?

Just don't lose sight of what matters most, which is what Pictochat currently is. Whether it is to a higher or lesser extent the frequency of potential hazards, what's more important is whether the hazards can be accurately predicted.

They can't be early on, but as the match drags on, they can. This is fact.
The changes in stage take on a significant portion of the match (time-wise.) This is fact.
Some hazards are potentially game-changing. This is also fact.

This is my opinion: the fact that the hazards can't be drawn down into predictable range until a significant amount of time has passed by, along with the possibility that some of these hazards can in fact affect the outcome of a match to such extremes would lead me to believe it should be banned.

Can you please outline what you find wrong with this argument of mine, aside from my opinion?

EDIT: I've found something wrong. You could argue that until you have a better prediction rate on the hazards, you can utilize what is known as the "safe" zone of Pictochat before the spawn periods. With this point, I can see how Pictochat can still be legalized as a counterpick: it limits options with this "safe" zone gameplay, but doesn't altogether remove them or make the game broken.

 

[Xyro77]

T-Block: Your purpose of using hypothetical situations is so we can analyze and compare them to what Pictochat currently is, perhaps give us a deeper understanding and a better informed idea of the "balance" of the stage, right?

Just don't lose sight of what matters most, which is what Pictochat currently is. Whether it is to a higher or lesser extent the frequency of potential hazards, what's more important is whether the hazards can be accurately predicted.

They can't be early on, but as the match drags on, they can. This is fact.
The changes in stage take on a significant portion of the match (time-wise.) This is fact.
Some hazards are potentially game-changing. This is also fact.

This is my opinion: the fact that the hazards can't be drawn down into predictable range until a significant amount of time has passed by, along with the possibility that some of these hazards can in fact affect the outcome of a match to such extremes would lead me to believe it should be banned.

Can you please outline what you find wrong with this argument of mine, aside from my opinion?

ROFL LOL LMAO

wtf did you just say?

 

[NO-IDea]

I said that as far as tournament results go, I'm a better Samus than you. BRING IT *****.

 

[T-block]

To be honest, I don't fully know what your argument is...

 

[Xyro77]

I said that as far as tournament results go, I'm a better Samus than you. BRING IT *****.

geezus dude, i will not turn this thread into a "who has better results" cause there its already been determined. You did better than me ONCE in your life and then lost the 50$mm. Congrats, ya rice eating Rectum Raider