The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[DeLux]

Why does anything have to go through the site?

If you have faith and believe that the community would be supportive of an MK ban, why not just go out and ban MK on a grass roots level? Convince TO's to host tournaments without MK included.

If you get enough TO's to back you, then the discussion won't even be necessary because your goal would be the reality. This kind of goes for every other argument about X stages being starters or banning/including X stages from the CP list.

Discussing for change doesn't prove it's what the community wants, even if it might be in its best interests. You have to push it along with action. If the situation doesn't support what side you stand on in the particular argument, it's probably because your side is not the most popular viewpoint and thus is most likely to alienate people on a statistical level.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

"Yeah, I support banning MK. But if I do, we don't get a sticky!"

 

[DeLux]

If there is a high demand for an MK Banned Tourney at the moment, then an MK banned tourney would receive hype generally receive since an MK banned tourney is in short supply.


That's assuming demand is high for an MK banned tourney.

If that hasn't been the case as of late, then it's probably safe to say the demand for an MK banned tourney isn't that high :\

Since I haven't heard of any hyped MK banned tournies, then I feel safe to assume the demand just isn't there to warrant a global rulesset change.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can think of several reasons for that other than "the community doesn't want MK banned".

Namely that no one even bothers to run large-scale MK banned tournaments because it isn't the standard and that the large amount of Meta Knight mains wouldn't be interested in it.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont think the stickys are really an issue.

Something like thats been attempted in various regions, and the problem was most of the stronger and more populated regions weren't receptive to the idea, and other regions didn't want to be left behind and gave up. Even were MK to be 'banned' I think it still wouldnt happen since some of these bigger regions simply would still run tournaments with MK. This late in the game to honestly have MK banned youd need to convince 3/5 between CA, NY/NJ, FL, TX, and MD/VA to stop using him.

And ESAMs right, nothings really changed in 2 years. At best you can say support has increased, but then again pro-ban is more vocal and has always over stated and estimated their support. Banning anything is a big deal, the fact that its not obvious already makes it unlikely.

 

[DeLux]

Aka lack of community support

 

[John12346]

Which is why we should open a community poll

Not to ban MK, but to see how many people are on each side.

I can also tell you that an enormous fraction of the NYC scene disapproves of MK's legality, if that counts for anything...

 

[Tagxy]

Im not sure where the notion came into play that 50% + 1 = a change in the ruleset. If things were that easy to change this game would probably have a ton of silly rules like banning chain grabs and would be played on like 3-5 stages. Theres a reason 2/3rds has long been the norm for bans.

 

[John12346]

Think about it like this

About 54%(although it might be different because of alt accounts) of the community supported a ban back in the day. Since then, and up to this point, most of the anti-ban's points have since collapsed, and the support for a ban has increased dramatically as time has worn on.

Don't you think it would at least be worthwhile to re-tally how much support each side has, even if it doesn't cause any change no matter what the results are?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

May mean nothing, but a ganon won a tourney recently.
It was an MK banned tourney.
AZ was there, as was blue rouge and other top players.

 

[Reizilla]

OMG Ganon is the best character when we ban MK.

Ignore the fact that Kel was like the only MK main there and Fonz didn't play him anyway.

 

[Suspect]

Nvm the fact their region sucks

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Everyone keeps talking about this tourney, are there any videos?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wanted not to make an input here as I'm not really concerned about the Unity Ruleset...

But this metaban discussion is just... too much.

No, having more community support do not means it is better.
Most people thinks a 5-starter sytem is the best, but it has been proven that it is not.
Most people do not like Rainbow Cruise, but there is nothing wong with it.
Most people complain about Metaknight, but the fact he do not wins even 50% of the money means he's very beatable, players are just good using him. Dominant maybe, but not broken in any way. "Why to fix something that is not broken?"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I would agree with you Kyokoro if not for my opinion on surgical rules.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Most people thinks a 5-starter sytem is the best, but it has been proven that it is not.

Cause even with CS and FD to take MK too, he still manages to win. M2K vs Bizkit for example... of course Bizkit could've won on FD, but just look at what M2K had to do for his entire last stock to win... wait and wait until he eventually messed up and get a free hit on him.

Most people do not like Rainbow Cruise, but there is nothing wong with it.

It's mostly Brinstar people don't like... but cause of both of the stages being legal. Players mostly ban Brinstar with MK choosing of course, RC.

Most people complain about Metaknight, but the fact he do not wins even 50% of the money means he's very beatable, players are just good using him. Dominant maybe, but not broken in any way. "Why to fix something that is not broken?"

Umm... He's currently at 53% of tournament Money (No split) and almost 3x the amount of what Snake has won in tournament.
Also cause of quite a few bad typos... It took me two or three times to re-read what you typed to understand what you were saying.

 

[san.]

Once the "below 50%" argument crumbles by going above 50% and even higher, what do we do then?

 

[John12346]

MK HAS over 50% of the money when we avoid skewing or biasing the data with tournaments that otherwise represent lower levels of play, AKA all tournies with 30+ entrants.

Also, when a super majority of a community agrees on a large scale decision for the correctly informed reasons... how is that generally not the right thing? Although it may be best if we just leave the entire vote to a committee, which is why I simply propose a vote to re-tally how much support goes with each side...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

A super majority doesn't agree on it....pro-ban is just more vocal because anti-ban have no reason to input since legit discussion isn't happening and there isn't an ominous feeling that it will happen. That's like saying "A super majority likes Japes so we should add it to the ruleset" when only the vocal people are stating it. There is a huge difference John, and you should know that...

 

[Albert.]

In SoFla the only person that consistently places top 5 with MK is also just a really really good player. (Seibrik) He still has a good DDD, Wario.

90% of the top MKs have ridiculously good secondaries- It's not the character, it's the person controlling the character. These good MK players would still be good w/o MK. If you think that it's easy to use MK at a competitive level, then you're ****ing crazy. Everybody knows the match-up.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

that's because everyone loses the match up for a lot of the same reasons, it's just that some character's excel at different strengths of his compared to others. example, pikachu is one the few characters who can recover against metaknight but like everyone else MK's range still poses a problem.

snake can compete with MK on the ground well enough, but so much as get hit upwards somehow and getting uairs>shuttle loops>gimps real fast.

and there are other high tiers that do alright in one category or other, but then you have the majority of characters who fall under this category:

range, nado, shuttle loop, and offstage combat both wreck and kill you the whole time. there you go, that's why everyone knows the MU. because they all lose to it.

however im not saying whether im proban or not proban, i just wanted to show you that it don't matter how well you know that MU, because you still lose just like everyone else in the game

 

[1048576]

If you think that it's easy to use MK at a competitive level, then you're ****ing crazy. Everybody knows the match-up.

before you post an anti-ban argument, replace MK with Akuma and see if your post still makes sense. if it does, you prolly want to rethink your argument.

 

[Suspect]

before you post an anti-ban argument, replace MK with Akuma and see if your post still makes sense. if it does, you prolly want to rethink your argument.

before you post again, think about wtf does akuma/sf have to do with mk/brawl?

 

[Albert.]

@ mr. Numbers:

Akuma SF was something like 70-30 or better Match ups beating the SF cast. MK has several 6-4s or even 55-45 if you want to be really generous with Diddy.

That is simply not a fair comparison to make, and I'm ashamed of your petty and deceptive debate practices.

Oh and I didn't mean to spark a detbate, let's get back to discussing the ruleset.... Hmm Esam what do you think the most popular final neutral is going to be for starting sets this weekend?

 

[Flayl]

MK isn't on the same level as SF2T Akuma, if he was he would have been banned a long time ago.

Albert: Smashboards ratios are deflated when you compare them to street fighter ones, you can't compare them like that.

edit: If we're talking about HDRemix Akuma, he's apparently more balanced than MK and yet is often banned

 

[Fuujin]

Flayl you so crazy.

 

[Judo777]

MK isn't on the same level as SF2T Akuma, if he was he would have been banned a long time ago.

Albert: Smashboards ratios are deflated when you compare them to street fighter ones, you can't compare them like that.

edit: If we're talking about HDRemix Akuma, he's apparently more balanced than MK and yet is often banned

While I agree he isn't quite on the lvl of ST akuma (tho not too far) him being not as strong is NOT the reason MK wasn't banned. It is HEAVILY more so the fact that the smash community is waaaayyyy to indecisive on removing stuff from the game and that smash has a larger casual gamer base. In street fighter games when they find a problem in the game they nerf it immediately. They don't hesitate they do it cause they have the balls to do so regardless of what some say. First few weeks, Sentinel has too much health? alright take it away IDC what people say.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'm gonna guess Smashville still. Most people like SV. I'm probably the only person who won't go there game 1.

 

[Albert.]

Uhgg but see MK loses too much. The only MKs that have consistently made it to top placings in regional/national tourneys across the North American/EU tourney scene are, in no specific order, Ally, M2k, Tyrant, Anti, Atomsk, Seibrik, Dojo, DEHF, TearBear, Shadow, Nairo, Orion, other EU MKs, ETC ETC.

Compared to the people getting top 3 at these big tourney's using characters other than MK, People beating players at their same level (but overcoming their MK w/o MK) are people like Ally's Snake/Wario/others, ADHD's Diddy, Gnes' Diddy, Atomsk's Wario/DDD/ICs/Whatever, Coney's DDD, Felix Diddy, Dehf's Falco, MikeHaze's Marth, Neo's Marth (when he bothers showing up) RichBrown's Olimar, Razer's Snake, Shaky's Ness, Havok's Snake, Esam's Pikachu, Nick's ZSS, MVD's Snake, Mr. R's Marth, Leon's Marth, ChuDat's Kirby (when he played) Will's DK, Dabuz Olimar, Shugo's MK, Vinnie's G&W, Zucco's Lucario (when he used to play) Fatal's Snake, TKD's Fox, HRNUT's Snake, BloodCross's Falco, San's Ike, Somebody's wolf, Reflex's Wahtever, Kismet's Falco, Bizkit's Snake, Pierce's Marth, (LOL BACK IN 08), Brood's Olimar wrecked when he was here, There's a good Toon Link out there, Lee Martin's Lucario, And a ton of other top players using non-MK characters.

You just can't make the claim that MK is an unstoppable tourney force when he does not, un-stoppably dominate those tourneys. The amount of regional tourney MK top-3 sure-ish threats is less than Half of the regional Non-MK tourney top 3 sure-ish threats.

The data is all right there. The people winning are either amazing players, or amazing players that happen to be using the best character in the game. I don't think MK should be banned, and I have no qualms about saying so because if MK was banned, I'd happily go back into using Marth 90% of the time. MK is just a tool that some people chose to use to enhance their "odds" of winning (or really, their options). If MK was banned, the game would be absolutely dominated by the trifecta of Snake/Diddy/Falco who go evenish-with each other but also empirically beat most of the characters below them (with some obvious exceptions). I actually enjoy the metagame of "MK" and then "amazing oddities (other top/high tier characters vying to take the crown from MK)

MK being in the game has also been shown to dramatically improve the quality of the playing produced by the top players (MKs and Non-MKs). I've been following the tourney scene since 2008 and the playing of the best players is so much BETTER. So much cleaner, so much more precise, so much safer, so much more creative. If you do not have perfect execution, you're gonna get wrecked, regardless of whether you're MK or whether you're Ike. This is exactly the rationale of some of the non-mk anti banners, (like Mike or Neo, Marth players)

@ Esam: Yeah I must admit that I'm partial to SV too. I also really like PS1, YI, BF and Lylat. I believe that it helps overall player-skill in order to know all the ins and outs of the stages and how they affect each match-up.

 

[Alphicans]

Massive name search bait right there.

 

[Albert.]

Yeah I noticed.

At least I wasn't talking ****.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Seriously @_@

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just out of curiosity... Which regions beyond AN actually have a real MK problem?

 

[Cassio]

While I agree he isn't quite on the lvl of ST akuma (tho not too far) him being not as strong is NOT the reason MK wasn't banned. It is HEAVILY more so the fact that the smash community is waaaayyyy to indecisive on removing stuff from the game and that smash has a larger casual gamer base. In street fighter games when they find a problem in the game they nerf it immediately. They don't hesitate they do it cause they have the balls to do so regardless of what some say. First few weeks, Sentinel has too much health? alright take it away IDC what people say.

I really hope this post wasnt serious, rofl.

 

[ErikG]

Just out of curiosity... Which regions beyond AN actually have a real MK problem?

New England has a Snake problem

 

[Albert.]

The Snake problem is hilarious because there's A) Very rarely any Diddies good enough to take out Fatal/Bizkit. B) very rarely any MK players performing well enough. and C) very rarely any Falcos, either.

Or DDD's.

or Marth's.

Snake is good though.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

First off this was an amazing post.

Again, for all of those who are questioning why we can't discuss it.

Everything turns into a flame-war, the mods have to be inspecting that thread 24/7, and after the first few days there is nothing productive. It isn't even like there are new points to bring up, it is the same **** as before just with slightly more "Hey, it happened here, there, and here." There isn't some new ground-breaking technique for them so its gonna be "He dominates the tournament scene, he breaks the CP system, tornado is stupid, shuttle loop is stupid, sharking is stupid, planking is stupid" and the like. The mods forbid us from talking about it anyway...even in the BBR, although we might be able to discuss it soon...not sure.


BTW, at most mains/secondaries of MK are 26%, not 50%, if we use Ripple/John#s stuffs. Don't exaggerate people >_>

^This. We have our reasons for not discussing this topic. Also people are exaggerating how dominant MK is as a whole. I won't say he isn't dominate but still. I believe we COULD discuss this topic though within reason. Of course its going to take more than one person from the BBR RC to agree to that lol. I still do not see us banning MK though.

The reason nothing productive ever happens is because we get people who just say "we aren't gonna ban him so this is pointless" or "well we have no way of getting enough TO's do follow" or "close this thread its pointless" instead of people actually discussing anything.

Reminds me of 3 years old covering their ears and going "La la la la la la la"

I partially agree with you actually. Then again you can't deny the atrocity that comes out of threads/discussions that focuses on ban Metaknight.

Or any MK centered discussion because then you get crap like this thread.

Go for it. I don't care enough for the discussion, personally.

Also, a lot of people don't come into this thread. However, if there was a "Metaknight Legality Discussion" thread people would jump in that ****. Big difference...

Also, we haven't exactly been talking about MK's legality, mostly the ability to discuss MK's legality. *shrugs* if you want to pursue it, go for it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a THREAD about this. Not a private group. A public thread. Only if it could be controlled though. We all know how this goes by now..

This thread is not an MK ban discussion. Or a discussion on a ban on MK ban discussion. Move on.

I agree we should be focusing on other stuff. However, healthy discussion doesn't hurt anyone.

I know I'm not playing along with the joke, but this is actually an important topic now...

Anyway, that immediately came to mind when I read the second to last post Tesh made, but I immediately dismissed it because of its lack of diligence or grace. If we want to get something done, we probably should do things the "right" way, even if it takes a lot longer to do so. If we just randomly start spamming the site, our chances of ever getting a discussion will fall to even worse levels.

However, what Tesh said is true. It's equally unfair that a topic can't be discussed because of the amount of flaming or trolling it may bring... It's, as Tesh said, allowing those who wish to make a topic never see the light of day to do so, and that's really... just not right...

I agree we may have been a little hasty in blocking discussion.

In SoFla the only person that consistently places top 5 with MK is also just a really really good player. (Seibrik) He still has a good DDD, Wario.

90% of the top MKs have ridiculously good secondaries- It's not the character, it's the person controlling the character. These good MK players would still be good w/o MK. If you think that it's easy to use MK at a competitive level, then you're ****ing crazy. Everybody knows the match-up.

Very true. Especially the last part.

New England has a Snake problem

Ban

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

MK is only a problem in the North. MW has blue rogue/ybm, Cali has DEHF, Haze. TX has Razer/Gnes, PNW has Felix and Tommy, FL has Myself, MVD, Shaky, and Riddle. AN has ADHD but he gets wrecked by like 5 different people now.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

MW has Kain also.

Ban

My MI people know what I'm talking about.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK is only a problem in the North. MW has blue rogue/ybm, Cali has DEHF, Haze. TX has Razer/Gnes, PNW has Felix and Tommy, FL has Myself, MVD, Shaky, and Riddle. AN has ADHD but he gets wrecked by like 5 different people now.

See, I've been wondering. I hear a ton of *****ing about MK winning all the big events... But it seems to be always the same people, plus in most regions, it seems like the biggest names are usually not MKs. Sure, there's always an MK or two on the PR somewhere, but that's not "ridiculously dominant". And of course MK is going to win most of the money. Did you guys see Ally ****** with Wario? The people who are winning these tournaments are genuinely amazing players. A lot of the very best players in one very, very strong region are MK mains. It's the end of the world.

Like, just to make this point painfully clear, I could not name more than one or two MKs in any region outside of AN... And AN has (I could be wrong here...) Nairo, Ksizzl, M2K, Anti, Atomsk (did ally move there yet?)... You get the point. We have kind of a similar effect at german nationals... Yeah, MK wins almost all the tournaments. That's because Staco is the best player in Germany by a fairly wide margin, not because he's an overdominant threat.