When did they say this? They said you CAN use the infraction system even if you aren't using the rest of the Unity Ruleset. They never said you MUST ban Red carded players from everything.
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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion
- Thread starter Unity Ruleset Committee
- Start date
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I completely understand what you're saying and everything but you're incorrect about the fact that they didn't break an existing rule. The infraction system wasn't in place, yes but the rule about bracket manipulation and splitting is CLEARLY listed in the ruleset. It also says that these actions are punishable by the T.O's discretion. This is the result of our collective discretion. And I'm not sure how much of a problem this is over in Japan but, its becoming ridiculous here. And a Yellow Card is a warning. It's a strong one and it got everyone's attention, but its still a warning. No one has been excluded from events or the possibility of winning money. I think you're over-reacting a tad.
Also the way you're putting things implies we'd hand out a Red Card the second we read or hear something about splitting. Not only do we have reasonable doubt but we have blatant posts like this:
It's not like we don't do our homework on these incidents. These ARE serious allegations. So please don't sound like our M.O. is to just throw out the Banhammer on Top Level players without any care.Anti (directed at Dabuz) said:
We are still discussing stages right now. This takes time. We just made changes about 10 days ago to the stage. This isn't something that happens every week. These changes are made as they are needed. We will be reaching a conclusion soon on the starter system and a "possible Picto replacement". Can't give any details though obviously due to our non disclosure policy.
That's a unnecessary question rhetorical or not. Obviously we can't stop the physical act of a Blacklisted player going to a tournament using the Unity Ruleset. But we can guarantee that at least 12 (and more coming soon) Tournament Organizers will not accept these players at their events. And its not like we're small time hosts also. I think it would hurt a bit, if M2K for example couldn't go to the upcoming School's In Session or Clash of the Titans 5 and other events down the road.
And chances are if a player attends, and participates in said tournament we'll probably find out. Action can still be taken. And we have support because we have the interests of the community in mind and people understand that.
And honestly, we don't enjoy doing stuff like this. Its just something we feel needs to be done.
They could be using the ruleset, true. But if they are allowing a red-carded player to enter, technically they are not using the full unity ruleset, and therefore would risk not having their tournament's featured/stuck/etc.
Mystic/Vayseth: your reading comprehension skills are totally fail right now. 1) Read the ruleset - splitting was expressly forbade and there was warning punishment could ensue-this is that punishment. 2) A yellow card is, more or less, putting the players on notice that if they try that **** again at a tournament using the Unity ruleset they will not be allowed to enter future tournaments running the Unity ruleset.
I think a lot of TO's will be sympathetic to it. I've heard a ton of positive feedback from influential members of the community, including people who I've been at odds at like DMbrandon who support this. No TO wants to host a tournament then have it get down to 2-3 players and those players just go "**** it, lets just split, not play, and who cares about fulfilling the entire goal of running a tournament". If that is going to happen, those players might as well not show up. There are plenty of other high level/top level players who are willing to play a tournament start to finish to find out who really is the best, instead of getting scared or letting a friendship get in the way. I'd rather have those people at my tournament. Look what we could potentially lose out on if this practice is not curtailed, look at the damage that has already been done:
Yea, let's continue to discourage one of the main sources of streaming like VGBootcamp from going to tournaments because people decide to split. Let's continue to lose out on potentially great winner's finals, loser's semi finals, loser's finals, grand finals, etc. Let's continue to see sponsor's like MLG frown at our communities matureness. Let's continue to see sources like getyourtournament stop covering our tournaments because for 5 straight weekend's he had no finals to cover for his website because everyone split. All because some of you can't understand that splitting is simply wrong and anti-competitive.God is my Rock said:
Everyone that is worried that it will still happen and no one will know about: what an idiotic argument. IF NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT THEN IT IS THE SAME AS NOT HAPPENING. You aren't making some "ah hah!" statement by pointing out it could happen and just not a single person other than those splitting would know about it. If people can keep it under complete wrap and no one is any wiser, then there isn't anything anyone can do about it, it won't make the community look bad, the finals will be good, etc. Of course, knowing the people in this community, I'd put the chances of that staying quiet at less than 50%.
For those saying: "It's their money!". Sure, let them win it fairly first without the opponent going half-*****. If they don't talk to each other all tournament, then the next day they go out to the movies and someone is like "Hey, you wan't half my winning! It's my money!" then that would be great. If instead its "hey, I don't want to lose to you, and you don't want to lose to me, let's split so neither of us actually finds out who is better" then you are manipulating the results and screwing the entire purpose of a tournament.
PS: That first quote is not what you're looking for, AZ. That's probably the first time I've seen someone leak SBR info on complete accident rofl
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I thought that didn't make sense...lol
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Just FYI, this could be an issue. Rigging the bracket at a tiny 20-man tournament counts as much as rigging finals at APEX? That seems like it could be problematic. And what if there's some... "disagreement" between the TO and the players (like at MLG Dallas, just without the whole "these are MLG officials doing the officiating" part)?
Also, will you guys be setting up an official "unity ruleset ranking" to use with the unity ruleset for seeding? Because IMO that would be a really good idea.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Very well put.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
ooooohhhhhh. gotcha. thought yellow card was 6 month ban and red card was longer. your right, reading fail...... 
To the very contrary, yellow card is a long-term warning and red card actually usually lasts for less time.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Guys, guys. Relax.
AZ is awesome.
He punishes ****s who openly mock our community and doesn't afraid of anything.
AZ is awesome.
He punishes ****s who openly mock our community and doesn't afraid of anything.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Also, we would hand out different punishments for the severity of the tournament.
Let's say ADHD and Anti split at a 25 man local after their yellow card expires. We would probably give them another yellow card for maybe...8-9 months this time if it was brought to our attention (Since they already have been known to do this). Now...if M2K and Ally split at something like CoT5 or Genesis2, they would probably automatically get a red card.
Let's say ADHD and Anti split at a 25 man local after their yellow card expires. We would probably give them another yellow card for maybe...8-9 months this time if it was brought to our attention (Since they already have been known to do this). Now...if M2K and Ally split at something like CoT5 or Genesis2, they would probably automatically get a red card.
Alex Strife
Smash Hero
I cannot help buy say this is all very interesting in regards to the whole situation. I do feel that a lot of things were not done the proper way. I felt like a warning should have been made because, at this point, no one had enforced anything with the splitting that has been done on the unity ruleset events. I also feel that because it was never enforced, any punishment would not have been right. A general warning and let people know about future practices would have been a better thing to do.
Now I do support the idea but it does have some flaws. Like someone posted when Evo dealt yellow cards it was for the EVO tournament series. What is this for? Tournaments in general? Are we really in the right to say if this goes further that we should ban them from tournaments for X amount of time? I think this would work better if it was towards something towards a greater event. In the end its about them not getting money or splitting money.
If we had to place blame to anyone or anything I'd blame M2K and Inui. Nothing against them personally but M2K is, by law, not an child but he acts like it. People have basically babied him to a point where he expects all of this. When he gets depressed he quits and we try to encourage him to not quit but he does not understand the idea of being a competitive player...infact I do not think he ever has. Bottom line is that if you want someone like him to grow as a person you need to really sit him down and tell him what to do and let him understand the actions he does. He does not have any ability to keep his mouth shut...we learned this from MLG when he tells people immediately after that he split and a MLG exec passes by to hear this.
As far as lucas is concerned, I think a lot of this has to do with him and how he treated the community in the past for the EC. Back then when he was the go to guy for stuff in EC his ideals at the time really hurt the community of NY/NJ ( mostly NJ really ). When your leader thinks about himself ( again this is before his personality as of now might be different but I do not associate with him ) and talks about all that matters is money and winning above all...you lose the idea of bettering yourself and people like that mold younger players into people that act just like him. We do not need people like that in the community and they should be shunned more than encouraged. ( again this is not against lucas himself but rather his attitude at the time ).
As for you AZ...I am really disappointed in your recent actions towards the community. I do not agree with the attitude you have taken towards people in general and acting holier than thou. We all have those moments but this is not helping the community. There are MUCH BETTER WAYS to express ourselves , as opposed to acting like you control everything that happens in the community. You have in your title that you are head of growth in our community and, for the most part you have done a good job, but forcing things upon children ( in the end these are children ) NEVER works. You need to learn how to deal with those people better and really focus on bettering the community. A lot can be done if we focus on how to say things just as much as what to do.
Overall this is a great concept but we need to look at the people involved and how to help them and help ourselves.
Now I do support the idea but it does have some flaws. Like someone posted when Evo dealt yellow cards it was for the EVO tournament series. What is this for? Tournaments in general? Are we really in the right to say if this goes further that we should ban them from tournaments for X amount of time? I think this would work better if it was towards something towards a greater event. In the end its about them not getting money or splitting money.
If we had to place blame to anyone or anything I'd blame M2K and Inui. Nothing against them personally but M2K is, by law, not an child but he acts like it. People have basically babied him to a point where he expects all of this. When he gets depressed he quits and we try to encourage him to not quit but he does not understand the idea of being a competitive player...infact I do not think he ever has. Bottom line is that if you want someone like him to grow as a person you need to really sit him down and tell him what to do and let him understand the actions he does. He does not have any ability to keep his mouth shut...we learned this from MLG when he tells people immediately after that he split and a MLG exec passes by to hear this.
As far as lucas is concerned, I think a lot of this has to do with him and how he treated the community in the past for the EC. Back then when he was the go to guy for stuff in EC his ideals at the time really hurt the community of NY/NJ ( mostly NJ really ). When your leader thinks about himself ( again this is before his personality as of now might be different but I do not associate with him ) and talks about all that matters is money and winning above all...you lose the idea of bettering yourself and people like that mold younger players into people that act just like him. We do not need people like that in the community and they should be shunned more than encouraged. ( again this is not against lucas himself but rather his attitude at the time ).
As for you AZ...I am really disappointed in your recent actions towards the community. I do not agree with the attitude you have taken towards people in general and acting holier than thou. We all have those moments but this is not helping the community. There are MUCH BETTER WAYS to express ourselves , as opposed to acting like you control everything that happens in the community. You have in your title that you are head of growth in our community and, for the most part you have done a good job, but forcing things upon children ( in the end these are children ) NEVER works. You need to learn how to deal with those people better and really focus on bettering the community. A lot can be done if we focus on how to say things just as much as what to do.
Overall this is a great concept but we need to look at the people involved and how to help them and help ourselves.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Question for the UR TOs:
With the discussion going on from about here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304174&page=3 onwards, is there going to be any discussion about moving FD into CP category?
With the discussion going on from about here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304174&page=3 onwards, is there going to be any discussion about moving FD into CP category?
Where have I acted holier than thou?Alex Strife said:
To me, the only "holier than thou" attitude is the one that makes someone think he can treat the most important matches in a tournament like a joke because he felt nothing would be done about it, felt no respect for the tournament organizer, no respect of people like God is my Rock who traveled just to stream those important matches, and no respect for all the people he beat legitimately. Now there has been action taken, and it is absolutely the right action. You said it yourself, there should be a warning, and that is exactly what a Yellow Card is. These players are on notice, nothing will come of this if they just act with respect from this point forth like tons of players do every single weekend.
I know that at the very least those on the committee will make sure these players will not be entering their events if they get banned. That's 12ish TO's and larger tournaments like SiiS5 and COT5 coming up. The goal would be anyone using the Unity Ruleset would abide by this to, as it is part of using the Unity Ruleset and getting the benefits attached to it.Alex Strife said:
The only way anything can be done to stop this behavior that has scarred far to many tournaments is to have tournament hosts band together. Do you have a better solution, because as far as I can tell this has been happening for years and before the BBR-RC came around and finally released the Unity Ruleset nothing was ever done (beyond MLG banning M2K/ADHD, which apparently had no long term effect). You can continue to stand as an island, but many TO's that are banding together are making tons of inroads. It isn't about "me", it is about "we", which is another reason it is pretty hard to be "holier than thou". If Keitaro didn't support this, for example, if he wasn't upset that his tournament was tarnished by people who ACTUALLY have "holier than thou" attitudes, then this wouldn't be happening.
It was in the rules before the tournament happened. Also, 2 of these players missed out on a tournament with a $12,500 grand prize for doing the same thing. What more do you need for both a "stop doing this because it hurts the community" and "don't do it because it is in the rules".
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Moral of the story with this business is that the spirit of competition and the community's excitement for that matter.
Dr. Seuss says: If you need cash and hate smash, get a job, you lazy sob.
Dr. Seuss says: If you need cash and hate smash, get a job, you lazy sob.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Until the money is in their hands, they have no right or claims to it.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
i call bull****. if they won, according to what it says at the beginning of every tourney thread
"payout will like
1. 60% of entry fees
2. 30% of entry fees
3. 10% of entry fees"
or however they divide it up. the fact is it always clearly states that the reward for winning the tournament is a set percentage of all the entry fees. people aren't gonna go if there is no money involved in the win. the winner has absolute claim to the entry fee percentage he won because it says so. if i were jipped out of my winnings for entering a tournament where it says ,"you will get this percentage of a filled pot for winning" i'd definately beat the **** out of whoever it is that jipped me because more than likely i paid good money to go out to that tournament to begin with so jipping out of the money would legitly cost an arm and a leg for them and probably make some extreme financial dilema for myself if i were counting on those winnings. saying it isn't the winner's money is load of bull**** because if they had known they would be jipped out of their money they definately wouldn't have paid to go
"payout will like
1. 60% of entry fees
2. 30% of entry fees
3. 10% of entry fees"
or however they divide it up. the fact is it always clearly states that the reward for winning the tournament is a set percentage of all the entry fees. people aren't gonna go if there is no money involved in the win. the winner has absolute claim to the entry fee percentage he won because it says so. if i were jipped out of my winnings for entering a tournament where it says ,"you will get this percentage of a filled pot for winning" i'd definately beat the **** out of whoever it is that jipped me because more than likely i paid good money to go out to that tournament to begin with so jipping out of the money would legitly cost an arm and a leg for them and probably make some extreme financial dilema for myself if i were counting on those winnings. saying it isn't the winner's money is load of bull**** because if they had known they would be jipped out of their money they definately wouldn't have paid to go
When you go to any tournament, you are to abide by the rules until the money is in your hands. You break any of the rules, and you place your winnings in jeopardy. Point is, don't do stupid **** until the tourney is done. The rules are only saying to do what you want with your money when you receive it from the tournament organizer.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
i agree, but the way he worded it made it sound like even if they don't break any rules, they have no right to the money, hence why i called bull****. if i got the wrong impression forgive my outburst and disregard it
Tin Man
Smash Hero
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Looooooooooooool
Anti too good
Anti too good
Doesn't really matter, Vinnie is not using the Unity Ruleset. More over, the argument "no one is watching the finals" is only part of things. There are 1) Streams 2) The work the TO did to put the event on 3) The entire purpose of the event to have a definitive winner and not to narrow the field down to 2-3 people. If such is the case, then tournaments might as well just advertise "3rd (tied): 33%, 3rd (tied): 33%, 3rd (tied): 33%" 4) The overall trend having already been created to make people stop watching or caring about finals, which will take time to reverse and one event being meaningless toward this, especially a small local event. 5) The culture it creates that effects other tournaments 6) This same culture that is created that effects the entire communities reputation from things like sponsors and other gaming communities.
So there is a lot that goes into it. Really though, Anti is just showing he doesn't give two ****s about the community. He fully expects no one to watch, and he fully intends to go back to splitting.
___
Another issue for those who thinking we shouldn't be doing anything:
MLG: change your behavior, stop this splitting BS, stop rigging matches and not trying
Some Top Players: Well now that we aren't in MLG, we have no incentive to change our behavior so we'll just keep doing exactly what contributed to us losing our biggest sponsor, because we (the top players) have decided it isn't worth trying to get new sponsors or to improve our image.
So there is a lot that goes into it. Really though, Anti is just showing he doesn't give two ****s about the community. He fully expects no one to watch, and he fully intends to go back to splitting.
___
Another issue for those who thinking we shouldn't be doing anything:
MLG: change your behavior, stop this splitting BS, stop rigging matches and not trying
Some Top Players: Well now that we aren't in MLG, we have no incentive to change our behavior so we'll just keep doing exactly what contributed to us losing our biggest sponsor, because we (the top players) have decided it isn't worth trying to get new sponsors or to improve our image.
ADHD
Smash Hero
The splitting will go on in private, and those at the tournament are fully aware that me and anti almost always split. I'm still going to split at tournaments if it's in my favor to, or an old friend regardless of whether it's a unity ruleset based tournament or not. It's my won money, so I can do what I want with it.
You seem to label splitting under the same category as intentional forfeiting, I assume from reading your posts. The two are different matters. If splitting is so bad to you, then why has it been going on since the melee days without much thought until now? No damage is done, and no one is refusing to enter tournaments because of what's happened in the past. You're being ludicrous, dawg. Dabuz got ****ed over because mew2king's selfish behavior and personal matters. He was a casualty not to splitting (read this sentence several times), but to mew2king's forfeiting actions.
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ADHD, the whole point of this ordeal is not to tell you what you do with your money. Once the money is yours, you can do whatever you want with it, and nobody will care. What we want is for the purpose of the tournament to legitimately be served, in this case, being to test the ability to win in the game of Super Smash Bros. Brawl under the given set of rules. As long as you earn your placing legitimately, then nobody will mind.
What we don't want to see is this:
-Oh well we don't have to take this match seriously because I'm gonna give you half of the money regardless. Let's just goof off.
-Okay so top 3 make it into pools? Well I'm first seed, I'll give you a free win so that you can make it to at least 3rd.
-Okay so ADHD is in GFs right now, I know that since I'm M2K, I can't beat ADHD, so I'll lose on purpose (sandbag or forfeit) to Ally in LF so that he can beat ADHD and split his 1st prize earnings with me.
We don't want any of those examples to happen because they manipulate brackets outside of the means of the game Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Placings are not earned based on wins/losses that are legitimately earned, they are won based on friendships and agreements outside of the game, which goes against the entire purpose of the tournament.
If you plan on splitting your money with someone, here is what you can do to make everybody not care:
1. Play your matches fair and square. None of this sandbagging or forfeiting non-sense. It's not that hard.
It's disrespectful to the tournament organizer, the staff, and the others that want to watch. Any hype that ever existed for Ally vs. M2K (note: there are people that still want to see that, believe it or not) will be killed if they both decided to play Jigglypuff throughout the whole set because they were gonna split at GF and make money anyways. The intent of splitting in that case was a deal made before hand, and affected the very top of the bracket, which is unacceptable because winning or losing didn't matter to them, and thus, it is anti-competitive.
Aaaand that's all you have to do. Play your matches legitimately, and earn your placing.
What we don't want to see is this:
-Oh well we don't have to take this match seriously because I'm gonna give you half of the money regardless. Let's just goof off.
-Okay so top 3 make it into pools? Well I'm first seed, I'll give you a free win so that you can make it to at least 3rd.
-Okay so ADHD is in GFs right now, I know that since I'm M2K, I can't beat ADHD, so I'll lose on purpose (sandbag or forfeit) to Ally in LF so that he can beat ADHD and split his 1st prize earnings with me.
We don't want any of those examples to happen because they manipulate brackets outside of the means of the game Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Placings are not earned based on wins/losses that are legitimately earned, they are won based on friendships and agreements outside of the game, which goes against the entire purpose of the tournament.
If you plan on splitting your money with someone, here is what you can do to make everybody not care:
1. Play your matches fair and square. None of this sandbagging or forfeiting non-sense. It's not that hard.
It's disrespectful to the tournament organizer, the staff, and the others that want to watch. Any hype that ever existed for Ally vs. M2K (note: there are people that still want to see that, believe it or not) will be killed if they both decided to play Jigglypuff throughout the whole set because they were gonna split at GF and make money anyways. The intent of splitting in that case was a deal made before hand, and affected the very top of the bracket, which is unacceptable because winning or losing didn't matter to them, and thus, it is anti-competitive.
Aaaand that's all you have to do. Play your matches legitimately, and earn your placing.
Tin Man
Smash Hero
I just found this. I don't think loser finals should contain matches such as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E55OsOkvDPE&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E55OsOkvDPE&feature=channel_video_title
Knowing M2K enough I would say it is maybe possible. However, forfeiting to the two people you directly split with doesn't look good to anyone, regardless of intentions.ADHD said:
In the end, it is all about the splitting. I don't think I've even talked that much about the forfeiting aspect (it was very minor in the official announcement at least). The reason for this is because there are many legitimate times someone would need to forfeit, and there is also the aspect of someone getting DQ'd for match lateness which could also be construed as a forfeit. So, basically, forfeiting is very hard to figure out what to do about and can only be done on a case by case basis.
Splitting going on in private where no one else knows or can tell is the same exact thing as splitting not happening, btw, and would be a huge improvement over doing BS like reverse mains or, from what I heard, Anti coming on the stream and verbatim saying there was a split. That's just cocky and disrespectful as hell to a lot of people.
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What a wonderful example our top players are setting!!!!!!
Player-1
Smash Legend
I may be wrong here, but I think this was probably due to the game being desynched from the replay due to some code like no tripping or the texture hacks on the stage or something
Player-1
Smash Legend
yeah, I remember watching the match on the livestream, nothing specific, just reverse mains and the stage and I definitely don't remember this going on as well as the textures in that vid being on
Tin Man
Smash Hero
Thats rather interesting to note.
Player-1
Smash Legend
cuz they didn't know it was desynched or didn't pay attention to the match when recording?
John12346
Smash Master
Rainbow Cruise hacks, EVEN TEXTURE HACKS, cause gameplay changes. They cause the stage to move at a slightly faster pace, and the stage obstacles appear earlier than they're supposed to or something.
So... yeah, it'll cause replay desyncs.
So... yeah, it'll cause replay desyncs.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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Not all of them John. I have a texture I use that I've extensively tested to make sure it doesn't desynch.
But yeah, that match reeks of desynch.
That said, why the hell aren't they using their mains in tournament? I call BS.
But yeah, that match reeks of desynch.
That said, why the hell aren't they using their mains in tournament? I call BS.
ANTi_
Smash Hero
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- Sep 8, 2008
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- 7,561
I didn't even go on the stream and announce a split wtf?
I was next to M2K coaching him the whole time when he was playing against dabuz.
I didn't even have time to go to the stream...
*Sit next to M2K vs Dabuz --> Go to Keitaro get my money from the split --> Play LF's with ADHD --> Play GF's with Ally --> Go home.*
Stop... ****ing... going by what you hear.
I was next to M2K coaching him the whole time when he was playing against dabuz.
I didn't even have time to go to the stream...
*Sit next to M2K vs Dabuz --> Go to Keitaro get my money from the split --> Play LF's with ADHD --> Play GF's with Ally --> Go home.*
Stop... ****ing... going by what you hear.