The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Ryusuta]

Come to the tournament in MI on Nov. 8th or the circuit event after that.

If MK isn't banned by January, I'm just not going to play Brawl anymore, so you won't get that chance again!

I totally would if I had the transportation to do so. I like video game get-togethers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thankyah for the kindness

Stupid masked blue Kirby....

His regular smashes--do they have priority over most projectiles as well?
I'm guessing they do.

if people want to use this as a dont ban MK method of logic, i suggest you do. its one of the only things that can be construed as a weakness.

Mks attacks have a weird property of not being able to hit through any kind of projectiles.
the best way to show this is to play against a snake and try to cancel the up smash mortar with any of the airials. it wont work. however, MK is fast enough with most of his attacks that the other person wont have the time to pull out whatever means they use to fire whatever projectile they have.

ps. that is one stupid masked kirby, that part is an lol to truth combo

 

[Master Knight DH]

That Falco video demonstrates how abusive Meta Knight is.

Meta Knight surviving up to HIGHER percentages. So much for his light weight being a weakness.

Meta Knight overcoming a bloody GLITCH that gets the abusing character up tiers.

Meta Knight just tearing up a top tier character, period.

His brokenness? IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!

What? 9000? There's no way it can be that high? Yes indeed it is right. Just.....ban him. B banning doesn't do squat to tone him down.

 

[Turbo Ether]

if people want to use this as a dont ban MK method of logic, i suggest you do. its one of the only things that can be construed as a weakness.

Mks attacks have a weird property of not being able to hit through any kind of projectiles.
the best way to show this is to play against a snake and try to cancel the up smash mortar with any of the airials. it wont work. however, MK is fast enough with most of his attacks that the other person wont have the time to pull out whatever means they use to fire whatever projectile they have.

ps. that is one stupid masked kirby, that part is an lol to truth combo

Not just projectiles. His standard attacks also fail to clash with melee attacks as well. This generally works to his favor.

 

[Praxis]

Come to the tournament in MI on Nov. 8th or the circuit event after that.

If MK isn't banned by January, I'm just not going to play Brawl anymore, so you won't get that chance again!

But you'd make so much good money playing MK xD

 

[kupo15]

Mks attacks have a weird property of not being able to hit through any kind of projectiles.

Not entirely true. I have on several occasions been able to clash Dins fire with the glide attack.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

You could have saved yourself some time and wrote:

"You are bad at this game and your region sucks. My region is better and even though I win I do bad a lot so that means Metaknight isn't broken. Also I taught every player everything, they just copied me."

That's probably the worst response to any post ever.
Seriously. M2K spends all of this time to bring up VALID ARGUMENTS (that is supported by FACTS like tourny results) for what he thinks is right in this topic, and all you do is make fun of him? >.> If you want to be the leader of the ban MK camp of this debate, then try to DEBATE and ARGUE logically. Posts like that one obviously won't prove anything or lead anywhere.

Paragraph 1: Having to be forced to play someone like GaW, Snake, or MK himself for those who want to play as low tier classified characters puts many players into dismay.

You're forgetting that competitive fighting games where you can win a tournament using a low tier character pretty much don't exist. (assuming that there are people in that tournament on the same skill level of the person using the low tier char). There might be exceptions, but it's rare.
Being "forced" to use a (very) limited amount of characters to win vs a certain character is not uncommon at all and does not warrant a ban, imo.

 

[Ryusuta]

I didn't see that post originally, but I'm inclined to agree with Mike. There's absolutely nothing to be gained from attacking M2K's strawman like that.

 

[Greenpoe]

That's probably the worst response to any post ever.
Seriously. M2K spends all of this time to bring up VALID ARGUMENTS (that is supported by FACTS like tourny results) for what he thinks is right in this topic, and all you do is make fun of him? >.> If you want to be the leader of the ban MK camp of this debate, then try to DEBATE and ARGUE logically. Posts like that one obviously won't prove anything or lead anywhere.

Overswarm's words were philosophically relevant, which is what this is all about: The pro-Meta philosophy vs. anti-Meta.

 

[Ryusuta]

Overswarm's words were philosophically relevant, which is what this is all about: The pro-Meta philosophy vs. anti-Meta.

How do you figure? They were a deliberate and blatant strawman without any regard to the actual content or context of either of their statements.

 

[DRaGZ]

It was a strawman without a point, i.e. he didn't reinterpret it and then try to argue against the reinterpretation. Thus, it didn't really do anything at all.

Carm down.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

But you'd make so much good money playing ANY OTHER CHARACTER IF MK WERE BANNED xD

fix'd

its easier to ban every character that has less than a 6:4 against meta,that way the game will be balanced

 

[Overswarm]

More accurately, Mew2King makes 1,000 posts and 999 of them are incoherent. The 1 that actually has actual points in it is filled with things I have already addressed.

I could respond to it logically, making it appear that Mew2King is a valid opponent and his opinion matters in this case, and hit every point one by one. This wouldn't do anything for my cause as.... well, I've already answered it all before. People aren't concerned with answers anymore. Most people already know Metaknight is broken, they just don't want to be called scrubs and think there's a magic counterpick out there somewhere. Responding to him does nothing but make it seem like mew2king's post is worthwhile when it isn't.

My alternative was just to type a lengthy version of "lol wut", making it clear I don't consider his post important enough to respond to. This not only frustrates M2K (tee hee), but allowed other people to immediately notice that I didn't respond to his post.... allowing others to do so for me. This allows the questions to be answered (again) while still making Mew2King's post as important as randomguy839's post.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Could you link me to posts where you have countered those specific arguments? (serious question, I don't read these boards alot, i mostly browse the melee boards, so i wouldnt know)

By the way, if the whole point of your post was to say "I'm to good to respond to your posts, m2k" and frustrate him, you really shouldn't have posted at all -.- It has nothing to do with the topic, and doesnt contribute anything to the discussion. If you're trying to make a statement about your imaginary hierarchy of worthy debaters, I don't understand why you would do it here at all

m2k is widely known for "saying a lot of things," and understating his main's abilities. many months ago i saw m2k make a post stating his belief that captain falcon would end up in high or top tier. i believe it was in the marth forums, ironically. take that for what it's worth.

I know im quoting old posts here, but I just had to point out that you're ****ing wrong.
For example: in melee, when he mained fox, he used to beleive that the marth vs fox matchup was in fox's favor. When he switched mains to marth, he changed his opinion to the matchup being even.
(the marth vs fox matchup has usually been considered to be in marths favor, btw)
That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're saying he's doing, if you didn't notice.

I remember him posting this, i could look up the quote if you don't beleive me.

 

[Overswarm]

Could you link me to posts where you have countered those specific arguments? (serious question, I don't read these boards alot, i mostly browse the melee boards, so i wouldnt know)

By the way, if the whole point of your post was to say "I'm to good to respond to your posts, m2k" and frustrate him, you really shouldn't have posted at all -.- It has nothing to do with the topic, and doesnt contribute anything to the discussion. If you're trying to make a statement about your imaginary hierarchy of worthy debaters, I don't understand why you would do it here at all

Mew2King would get more frustrated if I posted. :D

And you can search this thread for Overswarm posts and look backwards if you'd like to see my posts.

 

[Espy Rose]

More accurately, Mew2King makes 1,000 posts and 999 of them are incoherent. The 1 that actually has actual points in it is filled with things I have already addressed.

I could respond to it logically, making it appear that Mew2King is a valid opponent and his opinion matters in this case, and hit every point one by one. This wouldn't do anything for my cause as.... well, I've already answered it all before. People aren't concerned with answers anymore. Most people already know Metaknight is broken, they just don't want to be called scrubs and think there's a magic counterpick out there somewhere. Responding to him does nothing but make it seem like mew2king's post is worthwhile when it isn't.

My alternative was just to type a lengthy version of "lol wut", making it clear I don't consider his post important enough to respond to. This not only frustrates M2K (tee hee), but allowed other people to immediately notice that I didn't respond to his post.... allowing others to do so for me. This allows the questions to be answered (again) while still making Mew2King's post as important as randomguy839's post.

This.

I swear, any respect I had for M2K's viewpoint on Brawl went down the drain the moment he made that ridiculous "ban ledge-stalling" thread.

 

[Tenki]

Not entirely true. I have on several occasions been able to clash Dins fire with the glide attack.

I'm pretty sure MK's glide attack is separate from his 'normal' moveset as a "special state".

It's an aerial that can clang. Specials can clang in the air.

Really. Try Sonic vs MK, and have Sonic jump an aerial into glide attack.

His aerials will clang with, and if they have multiple hits, beat out MK's glide attack.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.

Taking ONE placement in the top 3 is enough to warrant a ban? >.> More like the entire top 3. People seem to be forgetting how big of a deal banning something really is.

Spoiler

I feel like mailing this to sirlin lol.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Taking ONE placement in the top 3 is enough to warrant a ban? >.> More like the entire top 3. People seem to be forgetting how big of a deal banning something really is.

Spoiler

I feel like mailing this to sirlin lol.

all of the criteria must be taken together, alone they mean nothing.

learn to read. either that or don't jump into threads that you haven't really read like a noob.

 

[Overswarm]

Taking ONE placement in the top 3 is enough to warrant a ban? >.> More like the entire top 3. People seem to be forgetting how big of a deal banning something really is.

Spoiler

I feel like mailing this to sirlin lol.

Read the next two numbers down, genius. =P

There are always going to be freaks of nature that are just really, really good... but play an inferior character. They can still make the top spots just by sheer skill alone. The next two numbers show that the character in question has to win the tournaments most of the time and also be in a large number of the top 8.

All the criteria have to be met; these aren't one time deals.

 

[The Slayer]

Spoiler

I feel like mailing this to sirlin lol.

I bet he'll say use items. lol But don't worry, I know your respone to that one.

If this thread keeps up, I would only want him ban so silly threads like this one would go away. That is, if there won't be another one like it...

 

[Andurian]

Unfortunately, I am not going to read all 400+ pages. I know, I must be a newb or something, but I don't have the time for that O_o. Anyway, back on topic, I find my main to be an efficient counter against MetaKnight (I play as Lucario). I saw the current percentages and I have to say I find them to be inaccurate since, well... I win against MetaKnight more than 50% of the time. Granted, I have only just begun starting to go to tournaments, but I have played tournament players who use MetaKnight. I don't always win (and I shouldn't) but I win more than I lose. Maybe it's just luck or maybe it's just a matter of my abnormal style, but nevertheless, I tend to win.

I also know of a Diddy Kong player who can defeat MetaKnight on a consistant basis. It may just be the players he goes against but he can win a lot. He also wins on many stages, not just Final Destination.

There may not be levels that are bad for MetaKnight but I have noticed that there are levels that he does not have the advantage over the other player. If I choose my favorite level, I have an easier time against him than if I were on Final Destination. So he may not have a bad stage all around but he doesn't always have the advantage either. Maybe I can't pick a stage he will lose miserably at simply because of the stage but I can choose one I have a higher chance of winning in.

I am against banning MetaKnight. I have also tried to use him and do not like to use him at all so I will probably never use him.

 

[M.K]

Unfortunately, I am not going to read all 400+ pages. I know, I must be a newb or something, but I don't have the time for that O_o. Anyway, back on topic, I find my main to be an efficient counter against MetaKnight (I play as Lucario). I saw the current percentages and I have to say I find them to be inaccurate since, well... I win against MetaKnight more than 50% of the time. Granted, I have only just begun starting to go to tournaments, but I have played tournament players who use MetaKnight. I don't always win (and I shouldn't) but I win more than I lose. Maybe it's just luck or maybe it's just a matter of my abnormal style, but nevertheless, I tend to win.

I also know of a Diddy Kong player who can defeat MetaKnight on a consistant basis. It may just be the players he goes against but he can win a lot. He also wins on many stages, not just Final Destination.

There may not be levels that are bad for MetaKnight but I have noticed that there are levels that he does not have the advantage over the other player. If I choose my favorite level, I have an easier time against him than if I were on Final Destination. So he may not have a bad stage all around but he doesn't always have the advantage either. Maybe I can't pick a stage he will lose miserably at simply because of the stage but I can choose one I have a higher chance of winning in.

I am against banning MetaKnight. I have also tried to use him and do not like to use him at all so I will probably never use him.

The ability to beat your friend or an opponent with your character does NOT warrant any substance to whether or not to be banned. PLEASE read the topic before you post, it really helps, you know?

 

[Justblaze647]

^lol! He sure told you^

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Read the next two numbers down, genius. =P.

I read all of the points and obviously I understand that it is ALL of them together that (in your opinion) warrants a ban.
My point was that I think a character has to be way more broken then that to be banned.
If it is possible to place top 3 in a large tourney without using MK against the best MK players it is not enough to warrant a ban. The gap between the characters has to be larger then that. (IMO)

This actually doesn't work. Link can SDI out of the waveshine and can also recover after he is shined off the stage.

It's still very much possible to reach a Link that SDI's away if you perfect WD out of the shine ASAP and walk just a little bit.
I don't know what you where arguing about that made you bring that up, but just wanted to point that out

Is "MK is fast and easy to pick up" really relevant? Seriously?

not really imo, that'd make sheik in melee bannable (and she isnt bannable)

 

[Master Raven]

This.

I swear, any respect I had for M2K's viewpoint on Brawl went down the drain the moment he made that ridiculous "ban ledge-stalling" thread.

Ledge-stalling is a problem that exists with most, if not the entire cast. Have you ever seen our Pit player in FL named Danny play? Some of our players are currently discussing this issue too and thinking of banning it. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to ban ledge-stalling.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spoiler

I feel like mailing this to sirlin lol.

He doesn't know the game, so his analysis isn't worth s***.

We're far more reliable at applying his criteria, simply because we know the game, and we're expirienced in the metagame.


The fact that he doesn't realize that "items off" is no different then "neutral guard off" shows this very well, without the proper knowledge, you can be the smartest person in the world, but it means nothing.

Ledge-stalling is a problem that exists with most, if not the entire cast. Have you ever seen our Pit player in FL named Danny play? Some of our players are currently discussing this issue too and thinking of banning it. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to ban ledge-stalling.

I don't think it has enough invincibility frames to be valid for banning.

Basically, if you time it right, there's nothing your opponent can do. The ledge is a very vulnerable position in brawl.

 

[Overswarm]

Ledge-stalling is a problem that exists with most, if not the entire cast. Have you ever seen our Pit player in FL named Danny play? Some of our players are currently discussing this issue too and thinking of banning it. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to ban ledge-stalling.

The fact that you can't actually ban it and it doesn't work are both pretty strong arguments against banning it in my opinion.

 

[Andurian]

Meta-Kirby, I have read the first few pages and that was in response to the very first post. It states there are no match ups that can beat MetaKnight consistently... except MetaKnight (which doesn't really make too much sense when you think about it. MetaKnight vs MetaKnight also means MetaKnight is consistantly losing as well.) I have experienced fighting tournament players who use MetaKnight and beat them using the exact same strategies as I have always used.

I do realize that the very first post also commented on it being the very highest level of Metagame... but then it also dovetails back into what common players are doing (which kind of contradicts itself). Also, ignoring the common player is foolish since the common player is what is making MetaKnight so popular, or so the initial post says. People are swapping to beat MetaKnight because they can't with their mains and that is happening commonly. That isn't about Metagame, that is about normal players swapping to play another character. As such, I find it necessary to comment about normal players as well. I am also offering an alternative to swapping to Metaknight that people may be interested in trying. I am also using myself as an example of that. If the Metaknight players start losing because someone found a strategy that works well against most players, the popularity could drop (if enough players learned it anyway) on Metaknight and make the argument that MetaKnight is much too popular an invalid argument. Maybe someone else has found a very efficient way of defeating MetaKnight. Having a method of stopping him would make him less likely to get banned and... well... he wouldn't be 'invincible' anymore. Maybe some random player found a trick and has tried to post it, only to be shot down simply because people were to busy whining about how MetaKnight should be banned.

SamuraiPanda has commented on how MetaKnight may be banned if a counter isn't found... maybe what I am saying has some merit and may be the counter people are looking for. The only way to find a counter is to play the game and there are a lot of people playing it. There are also a lot of people fighting MetaKnight and they may have found a method to bet him.

Also, I am not going to read 442 pages quiet simply because I have more important thing to do, including playing Brawl and having a life. I do not mean that offensively but, *shrug* I have a life.

Also, something to note. Metagame has been defined to me as The Top Playstyles and the best of the best... so I am using that definition when I make these posts.

 

[Master Raven]

The fact that you can't actually ban it and it doesn't work are both pretty strong arguments against banning it in my opinion.

I don't mean to derail the topic here but if you really think ledge stalling isn't an effective tactic then you can argue for that in this topic then:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200374

 

[ShadowLink84]

MK: Tornado against most ledge stalling techniques.

Link: Bomb+Dair=win?

Marth: you can perform a Usmash but that timing is rather difficult or you can use an ^B since its quick, has invincibility frames, and he goes TAAH! when he does it.

Pit: Arrows

Falco: No clue

Fox: No clue

DK: ^B works pretty well.

Sonic: Side taunt.

 

[CR4SH]

not really imo, that'd make sheik in melee bannable (and she isnt bannable)

Only if it was the only point made for a ban, which it certainly is not. It is, however, relevant. By no means is it the most important point, but it is a fair one. Shiek had more weaknesses than meta does, and more importantly, has even matchups.

 

[Andurian]

Also, something else that I find a bit interesting and kind of goes against what has been defined as normal in the first post.

I can see a lot of people swapping characters or deciding to start using another character because of character... and more commonly, I see people swapping characters to avoid being chain grabbed by Dedede instead of being able to beat MetaKnight. Now Metaknight is one of the available characters that can avoid Dedede which would appeal to players to swapping to MetaKnight.

 

[Metro Knight]

Has anyone started an MK banned tournament results thread?

If people do start hosting these tournaments, certainly the results should be placed in a separate results thread, due to the game being entirely different.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think if people saw M2K's post in the SBR they would realize why OS posts like he does towards M2K.

Trust me when I say that OS has addressed everything M2K says time and again.

And M2K actually fails to address anything that anyone says to him other then some variation of "Oh, it's just match-up experience or people just need to get better."

After awhile it just gets stupid and redundant and you really don't care about hearing his opinion at all.

 

[JesiahTEG]

M2K isn't the best debater, but a lot of things he says holds value. Even if he sounds weird at times, it's important to keep in mind that he is the best player in the world most likely. The stuff he says holds weight.

 

[St. Viers]

you can't ban edge camping, but you CAN ban using edgecamping to stall a match, if there is a way to do it and remain invincible.

Bet just to stimulate meaningful discussion, let's look at what IS banned in smash games:

items, for the most part:
This isn't for any "overbalanced issues, but rather they lessen the competative nature of the game by introducing an element of luck
infinite stalling
This would be primarily jiggz, rising pound, but includes wall bombing, luigi infinate, or any of those. Even though the chars themself aren't banned, not using the moves mentioned, the application is banned, because it stalls the game indefinitely, and as tourney matches have a time limit, can lead to getting a slight % lead and simply remaining out of possible reach for the opponent. This made jigglypuff unbeatable, unless you picked up the puff yourself, in an effort to stop his stalling.
wobbling/red shell glitch/IC ice glitch:
These rendered the opponent immobile. Although wobbling was situational, it some places it was banned because it allowed unescapable 0-death combos. The freeze glitch/red shell glitch was banned because it also prevented the opponent from moving, and thus made the characters overpowered unless you played a ditto match, where you had equal opportunity to do the same back.

So now let's look at metaknight. He has no 0-death combos, nor means as to immobalize the opponent. He can't infinite stall, nor can he otherwise stall the match. However, there is ONE aspect that, depending on the final decision of the community, makes him match the other banned items:

The fact that many people are picking up MK just to fight another MK, along with the possibility of him limiting the competative nature of the game (as items did, though by a different reason).

However, as many have pointed out, because of MK's inherent advantages, people seem to favor picking him rather than sticking with and advancing the Metagame of other characters; perhaps because there is in fact no better way to beat him than play him.

Anyways, I'm not giving my opinion, as I've stated it before, as I'm not good enough to have it be heard, but what I'm saying is that MK shares something in common with previous bans, but does NOT share the primary reason they're banned, namely that he puts the opponent at such an advantage that the game is totally unwinnable....

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

iirc wobbling isnt banned anymore according to SBR official rules.
I could be completely wrong though. (Most tournies here allow wobbling btw)

 

[Praxis]

Meta-Kirby, I have read the first few pages and that was in response to the very first post. It states there are no match ups that can beat MetaKnight consistently... except MetaKnight (which doesn't really make too much sense when you think about it. MetaKnight vs MetaKnight also means MetaKnight is consistantly losing as well.)

It makes perfect sense. Metaknight vs Metaknight is a perfectly even matchup. And every other matchup MK has is easier for him because he has the advantage on everyone but another MK.

I have experienced fighting tournament players who use MetaKnight and beat them using the exact same strategies as I have always used.

Highest level of the metagame. I beat bad MK's all the time.

I do realize that the very first post also commented on it being the very highest level of Metagame... but then it also dovetails back into what common players are doing (which kind of contradicts itself). Also, ignoring the common player is foolish since the common player is what is making MetaKnight so popular, or so the initial post says.

hardly. Ignoring the common player is completely logical when discussing a ban, because the ban needs to only consider the highest level.

If MK were to demolish, say, Pit, at low and medium levels of play, but Pit usually wins at high levels of play...everyone would play MK, but the winner would be the one really good Pit.

Only the highest level matters because we're looking at the people who win the money. If you win a tournament, you have to deal with people playing at a high level (though not necessarily the highest- depends on region). Nobody cares what is required to beat someone at a low level because you don't make money dealing with that.

People are swapping to beat MetaKnight because they can't with their mains and that is happening commonly. That isn't about Metagame, that is about normal players swapping to play another character.

It IS about metagame. People are swapping to beat Metaknight because Metaknight destroys their characters- that IS metagame.

As such, I find it necessary to comment about normal players as well. I am also offering an alternative to swapping to Metaknight that people may be interested in trying. I am also using myself as an example of that. If the Metaknight players start losing because someone found a strategy that works well against most players, the popularity could drop (if enough players learned it anyway) on Metaknight and make the argument that MetaKnight is much too popular an invalid argument. Maybe someone else has found a very efficient way of defeating MetaKnight. Having a method of stopping him would make him less likely to get banned and... well... he wouldn't be 'invincible' anymore. Maybe some random player found a trick and has tried to post it, only to be shot down simply because people were to busy whining about how MetaKnight should be banned.

SamuraiPanda has commented on how MetaKnight may be banned if a counter isn't found... maybe what I am saying has some merit and may be the counter people are looking for. The only way to find a counter is to play the game and there are a lot of people playing it. There are also a lot of people fighting MetaKnight and they may have found a method to bet him.

Also, I am not going to read 442 pages quiet simply because I have more important thing to do, including playing Brawl and having a life. I do not mean that offensively but, *shrug* I have a life.

Also, something to note. Metagame has been defined to me as The Top Playstyles and the best of the best... so I am using that definition when I make these posts.

...I get the strong feeling you don't understand this discussion.

 

[Praxis]

not really imo, that'd make sheik in melee bannable (and she isnt bannable)

It's the combination of "easiest to learn" with "absolute best character" and "no bad or even matchups" that makes it dangerous.

Sheik had bad/even matchups and characters that were her equal. MK does not.