The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Justblaze647]

@ Waker of Winds...

LMAO! I don't think I've ever seen anyone become as unpopular as you have so quickly... btw, have your read your own name? why the hell don't you main TL?

 

[WakerofWinds]

Listen now, listen...

assuming other than the two below my last post who I'm replying to there aren't any new posts... well, we'll just assume.

Regardless of weight being a strength or weakness depending on the time, it is a weakness, like you asked for.

Yes, it's hard to mess up with the B moves in the air. Even the best players make mistakes, it'll happen. Again, it's an exploitable weakness when it comes into play.

Just because he has those kill moves, doesn't mean he has a lot of them. I remember when brawl first came out one of the biggest discussions in the character board was how to kill with him.

Lastly, yes, his moves ARE weak. Just because he can use them quickly doesn't mean they're powerful. Heck, Kirby can rack up the damage just as fast, doesn't change the fact that they aren't necessarily strong.

Also, I wasn't aiming to be popular or unpopular, I'm aiming to voice an opinion and let it be known. Also, I do second TL, but like I said, MK is my favorite character, and Kirby is my main. I mained TL when brawl first came out, thus, you have the name.

 

[XienZo]

Listen now, listen...

assuming other than the two below my last post who I'm replying to there aren't any new posts... well, we'll just assume.

Regardless of it being a strength or weakness depending on the time, it is a weakness, like you asked for.

Yes, it's hard to mess up with the B moves in the air. Even the best players make mistakes, it'll happen. Again, it's an exploitable weakness when it comes into play.

Just because he has those kill moves, doesn't mean he has a lot of them. I remember when brawl first came out one of the biggest discussions in the character board was how to kill with him.

Lastly, yes, his moves ARE weak. Just because he can use them quickly doesn't mean they're powerful. Heck, Kirby can rack up the damage just as fast, doesn't change the fact that they aren't necessarily strong.

Also, I wasn't aiming to be popular or unpopular, I'm aiming to voice an opinion and let it be known. Also, I do second TL, but like I said, MK is my favorite character, and Kirby is my name. I mained TL when brawl first came out, thus, you have the name.

The B moves aren't exploitable if they choose not to go into the air with them.

The last two things you mentioned are statistical stuff, not neccesarily affecting his gameplay. He'll still kill you, its just that MK will be using similar moves each time. You still lose a stock in the end. His moves are weak, but in the end, you got punished once and got 30% damage. You're in KO range either way now. Its not impressive statistically, but he still has the advantage. He just won't be winning any records. Except in matches won.

 

[Justblaze647]

He just won't be winning any records. Except in matches won.

Which is all that counts... at the end of the day...

 

[Kingdom Key]

I think he'll be banned soon, he's banned in a few countries already (if I'm not mistaken). I don't care much if he does get banned or not though.

 

[WakerofWinds]

They're weaknesses, there are ways to stop his combos... sometimes. Or get out of them.


Regardless, the real manner here is he's beatable with the right strategy, as long as you want to spend the time to find it. If not, then, well, don't complain about it.

 

[popsofctown]

Just because he has those kill moves, doesn't mean he has a lot of them. I remember when brawl first came out one of the biggest discussions in the character board was how to kill with him.

He has a five frame downsmash he has a five frame down smash he has a five frame downsmash he has a five frame downsmash.

Do you realize a jab is takes 2,3, or 4 frames, and Meta's downsmash is 5? Its kill power is typical.

I think Shuttle Loop has invincibility, not super armor, but not sure.

His nair is underused by a lot of Meta Knights, it kills quite fine. You can't decay shuttle loop, downsmash, and nair, especially if you can just refresh with tornado whenever with a 5% chance of getting punished.

 

[popsofctown]

Regardless, the real manner here is he's beatable with the right strategy, as long as you want to spend the time to find it. If not, then, well, don't complain about it.

The character you are using is beatable with the right strategy from him too... equally sophisticated strategies from two players result in an MK win.

 

[WakerofWinds]

The character you are using is beatable with the right strategy from him too... equally sophisticated strategies from two players result in an MK win.

MK has a lot more ways to be countered then people think. That's what we've been getting at this whole time, is it not?

 

[wangston]

Lets argue of Meta knight for 168 pages, back and for and neither side winning. Though both sides have a good argument. I personally want meta banned because I'm to lazy to step my game up when it comes to fighting a meta knight I have to play ever so carefully and try not to get gimped. No i'm not making fun by saying I'm to lazy, I'm saying the level I have to play is perfect and on top of that I have to hope the meta makes mistakes.

 

[XienZo]

The character you are using is beatable with the right strategy from him too... equally sophisticated strategies from two players result in an MK win.

Then lets use MK! THAT SOLVES EVERYTHING!



...thus, this thread.

 

[Kookie]

They're weaknesses, there are ways to stop his combos... sometimes. Or get out of them.


Regardless, the real manner here is he's beatable with the right strategy, as long as you want to spend the time to find it. If not, then, well, don't complain about it.

But the thing about that is, a lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to do this, and still, we've got nothing.

The only real way to beat Meta Knight is to either be Meta Knight, or be much better than the person using him. Emphasis on "much".

 

[XienZo]

The only real way to beat Meta Knight is to either be Meta Knight, or be Azen.

Fixed, lol.

 

[WakerofWinds]

He has a five frame downsmash he has a five frame down smash he has a five frame downsmash he has a five frame downsmash.

Do you realize a jab is takes 2,3, or 4 frames, and Meta's downsmash is 5? Its kill power is typical.

I think Shuttle Loop has invincibility, not super armor, but not sure.

His nair is underused by a lot of Meta Knights, it kills quite fine. You can't decay shuttle loop, downsmash, and nair, especially if you can just refresh with tornado whenever with a 5% chance of getting punished.

Out of about 16 moves, he has 3 that can kill. Yeah, lots. Again, they asked for a weakness, I provided it. Doesn't mean it's a weakness that plays in a lot, but a it's a weakness nonetheless.

If he's band, you'll never find ways to beat him, and there are ways to beat him. This? Fact.

 

[Steel]

They're weaknesses, there are ways to stop his combos... sometimes. Or get out of them.


Regardless, the real manner here is he's beatable with the right strategy, as long as you want to spend the time to find it. If not, then, well, don't complain about it.

Please stop posting nonsense.

Anybody who has any clue about fighting games can see right away why Meta thrives.

Incredible range + Incredible speed + Incredible pokes + Safe kill moves = Incredible character.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Please stop posting nonsense.

Anybody who has any clue about fighting games can see right away why Meta thrives.

Incredible range + Incredible speed + Incredible pokes + Safe kill moves = Incredible character.

Technically Brawl is a platformer, but let's not get into that, shall we?

 

[Greenpoe]

I think Shuttle Loop has invincibility, not super armor, but not sure.

Actually, I've hit MK half-way out of his shuttle loop, but it was just a lucky disjointed shot (Lucario FTW).

 

[DRaGZ]

WakerofWinds, you're posting "weaknesses" as though you assume we don't know about them. They're obvious.

The problem is that none of them are truly exploitable.

You want a real weakness? Take R.O.B. He has a huge blindspot right below him, so that if he's falling towards the ground and the opponent is below him, he's probably in a lot of trouble. Snake? His recovery is extremely predictable and very easy to punish. Falco? He sucks off-stage. DeDeDe? He's slow and his aerial approach is very predictable.

And it's not just a lack of weaknesses on MK's part. It's the fact that he also has an absurd amount of advantages over every character, enough to the point that he outclasses nearly every character in every aspects of what is important in competitive Brawl.

And Brawl is not a platformer. A platformer is dependent almost entirely on timing jumps correctly and getting through obstacles across mass expanses of levels, and platforms are generally single-player. Subspace Emissary is a platformer, although the whole "timing jumps correctly" part doesn't really apply. Competitive Smash has nothing to do with this.

 

[Justblaze647]

Out of about 16 moves, he has 3 that can kill. Yeah, lots. Again, they asked for a weakness, I provided it. Doesn't mean it's a weakness that plays in a lot, but a it's a weakness nonetheless.

If he's band, you'll never find ways to beat him, and there are ways to beat him. This? Fact.

You just gave us the same nonsense the last 50 people like you gave... "he's light, he cant kill, b moves have ending lag"

When played at a professional level, none of these factors come into play simply because players have learned to take what you call his "weaknesses" and make them all but invisible to the naked eye...

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UOfWAVKu7k

Now tell me about his glaring weaknesses.

 

[Kookie]

Fixed, lol.

True be dat.

 

[WakerofWinds]

WakerofWinds, you're posting "weaknesses" as though you assume we don't know about them. They're obvious.

I KNOW you know about them, you asked for some, I posted them.

The problem is that none of them are truly exploitable.

No, not really, but they can be in a sense.

You want a real weakness? Take R.O.B. He has a huge blindspot right below him, so that if he's falling towards the ground and the opponent is below him, he's probably in a lot of trouble. Snake? His recovery is extremely predictable and very easy to punish. Falco? He sucks off-stage. DeDeDe? He's slow and his aerial approach is very predictable.

My weaknesses that I listed are weaknesses, and real. Not the same kind, if you want one, then let's go ahead and talk about how most people use MK's dair as a sideways hit as opposed to a downward hit, though it is sometimes used that way, yes.

Well justblaze, do the same with your character, mkay?

 

[Justblaze647]

Nonsense

Do you read what you post before you post it???

 

[XienZo]

My weaknesses that I listed are weaknesses, and real. Not the same kind, if you want one, then let's go ahead and talk about how most people use MK's dair as a sideways hit as opposed to a downward hit, though it is sometimes used that way, yes.

Well justblaze, do the same with your character, mkay?

Well, we might as well add that DDD gets permagrabbed on corneria and Olimar's pikmin occasionally glitch up and charizard takes increased knockback from water attacks....

 

[Steel]

You just admitted that your argument for "weaknesses" is that they are "not really exploitable." Then how the hell is it a weakness? You aren't convincing anyone, not that you had a shot in the first place.

 

[Praxis]

Yes, it's hard to mess up with the B moves in the air. Even the best players make mistakes, it'll happen. Again, it's an exploitable weakness when it comes into play.

"He has the best recovery in the game, but someone might do it wrong and kill themselves."

Player mistakes that are hard to make /= character weaknesses. Assume the highest level of play. Do you think Mew2King would mess up his recovery often enough for you to take advantage of?

Just because he has those kill moves, doesn't mean he has a lot of them. I remember when brawl first came out one of the biggest discussions in the character board was how to kill with him.

Does not matter how many there are, just how consistent they are.

In this case, MK has two of the fastest moves in the game, plus a third that is unpunishable. Unlike Ike, who has tons of AVOIDABLE kill moves, MK has three kill moves...that he can easily hit you with at any place, at any time, in the air and on the ground, and come out so fast that you cannot count on consistently avoiding them.

The moment you hit KO percentages, you're going to die. What a KO percentage is depends on your character and how good your DI is. But you can't count on avoiding getting hit.

The NUMBER of kill moves does not matter. The consistency and how easy they are to land does.

Lastly, yes, his moves ARE weak. Just because he can use them quickly doesn't mean they're powerful.

Except that his speed and range and priority means he can land them rapidly, and they do significant damage. The weak knockback just means he can hit you...AGAIN. Then land a kill move whenever he chooses.

You're thinking on a lower level of play here. Come on. "Your opponent might mess up his B moves" as a character weakness? That's a joke. You have to think at the highest level of play.

At a high level of play, low knockback on some attacks is not a bad thing as it can be followed up, and the amount of kill moves is much less important than the ease of landing the one you have.

Also, "light weight" alone is not that great a factor. Light weight means you die faster, but at the highest level of play there's going to be excellent DI, and the fact that MK has the best recovery in the game means that his light weight does not matter nearly as much. You can't gimp him offstage, while he can gimp everyone else.

Further, light weight means he slips out of combos. Peach has 50-60% combos on Snake. I can't do nearly as much damage off of one hit with MK.

If you believe having only 3 kill moves is a weakness, explain to me how I can exploit it. kthxbai.

 

[∫unk]

Technically Brawl is a platformer, but let's not get into that, shall we?

Another quality post that should be included in your application to the SBR

 

[Justblaze647]

Another quality post that should be included in your application to the SBR

LMAO!

10char

 

[∫unk]

wow... I'm honored guys. Quoting me 4 posts in a row, that's just wonderful.

Well... let's go ahead and start with the second post first... I did forget to change that. I don't actually main MK anymore, I main Kirby. I enjoy MK, he's my favorite character to play as, but I main Kirby. My apologies for not changing that.

Then the third one. I would, but I'm not going to.

Now for the first and third. His weight is in fact a weakness, yeah. At one point there was a thread in the MK discussion board that had a list of moves that can counter MT, and, as I remember, there were a lot of them. All of his B moves have a recovery time if they're used in the air, leaving a lot of chances for mess ups, even if they don't happen often. He doesn't have a lot of kill moves, even if he is good off of the stage. He does minimal damage with a lot of his moves... I'll think up more later, but I'll let you tear these down first, mkay?

btw everyone's quoting you cause you're stupid and these people are nice enough to show how stupid you are

 

[WakerofWinds]

Do you read what you post before you post it???

No sir, no I don't. I just let it come out of my computer, I'm not even sure I'm writing these posts. It's more like the god of brawl is saying it through me, something like that.

Might as well also add how many moves there are that can beat out other characters moves. Each character, ready, let's list them.

Ike's B move can beat out....

Also, just because they aren't "exploitable" doesn't mean they aren't weaknesses. It means they come into play in a different way, simply. I'm not gonna throw out ways for you to beat MK, I'd rather see the community be smart and come up with something themselves.

I'm very thankful they'd waste their time on somebody as stupid as me. Like I said, I'm honored.

 

[cman]

The only really exploitable weakness is that MK can't cancel projectiles. His multiple jumps usually prevents that from being too big of a problem though. Maybe we can figure out a way around that...

*Goes off to test some things*

Well, i don't have anything right now.

That is pretty much the only potentially exploitable weakness I can think of, excluding the obvious light weight (which, if there were a way to effectively exploit, would have been found by now).

 

[Praxis]

MK has a lot more ways to be countered then people think. That's what we've been getting at this whole time, is it not?

No.

You have not shown one way. Not. One. You've thrown out ways MK could be better- "his weight is light", "he could use more kill moves"- but not one way to exploit any weakness.

Sure, if you know exactly how to fight MKs, you might beat them. But if the MK knows how to fight your character, the MK beats you. And if you know how to beat the MK, and the MK knows how to beat you...the MK always wins.

And if we're assuming the highest level of play, that both players know exactly how to fight the opponent...the MK will always win.

 

[WakerofWinds]

No.

You have not shown one way. Not. One. You've thrown out ways MK could be better- "his weight is light", "he could use more kill moves"- but not one way to exploit any weakness.

Sure, if you know exactly how to fight MKs, you might beat them. But if the MK knows how to fight your character, the MK beats you. And if you know how to beat the MK, and the MK knows how to beat you...the MK always wins.

And if we're assuming the highest level of play, that both players know exactly how to fight the opponent...the MK will always win.

Yes.

I have shown one way, maybe just one, and others have pointed out different ways.

Also, MK will not always win, you can't prove it, as NOBODY can know exactly how to beat a character, and it's too early in the game to say you've found every single one of MK's weaknesses or anything of the sort. You really need to read my posts all the way through, then again, maybe so do I.

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm not gonna throw out ways for you to beat MK, I'd rather see the community be smart and come up with something themselves.

I'm very thankful they'd waste their time on somebody as stupid as me. Like I said, I'm honored.

LMAO! That's just a cute way of saying that you have no Earthly idea how to stop MK dominace. You'd rather just bring up facts that everyone already knows in a feeble atempt to make yourself seem more intelligent than you actually are... or maybe it's all a cry for attention... or maybe your just trying to up your post count or something, idk. regardless, stop posting nonsense unless you something significant to add to an intelligent discussion.

Also, the use of sarcasm just makes you look like more of an a-hole when you already dont know what you're talking about.

 

[IDK]

i do not have enough energy to post everything i think about this topic. i just swam 200 laps. i will say quite quickly however... NO. will he eventually? probably. right now? NO. explore what is left of the game before this debate is continued just like we waited to make a tier list? yes. i suggest this debate ends. now. we need to find what is left of the game.

 

[XienZo]

The only really exploitable weakness is that MK can't cancel projectiles. His multiple jumps usually prevents that from being too big of a problem though. Maybe we can figure out a way around that...

*Goes off to test some things*

Well, i don't have anything right now.

That is pretty much the only potentially exploitable weakness I can think of, excluding the obvious light weight (which, if there were a way to effectively exploit, would have been found by now).

But even thats hard to exploit; if you were a regular character and you saw a fully charged aura sphere coming towards you, would you go"Ooh, lets jab it and hope it goes away" or are you going to spot-dodge? You'd spot-dodge(except the sphere's so big and slow it'd hit you out of the spot-dodge anyway but thats beside the point); not many characters depend on jabs to protect them from projectiles.

 

[WakerofWinds]

LMAO! That's just a cute way of saying that you have no Earthly idea how to stop MK dominace. You'd rather just bring up facts that everyone already knows in a feeble atempt to make yourself seem more intelligent than you actually are... or maybe it's all a cry for attention... or maybe your just trying to up your post count or something, idk. regardless, stop posting nonsense unless you something significant to add to an intelligent discussion.

Also, the use of sarcasm just makes you look like more of an a-hole when you already dont know what you talking about.

Funny thing about that is, I do know of ways. Second thing is, I know I sound like an ahole. I stopped caring after people already thought I wasn't smart. In fact, I stopped caring before I posted here.

Funny thing is, I know what I'm talking about, I just choose not to use more than what I've already said. You're going to just say I'm lying about this. Guess what, I really don't care.

Who says I'm using sarcasm, I really don't think about what I write sometimes, it just comes out. Why? Because it needs to be said, even if I sound stupid saying it.

MK needs more time. That's that. Take what's been said with a grain of salt. The winds speak the truth, and carry more information then you listen to. With that, I bid you all farewell. Enjoy your fall/winter seasons.

 

[Praxis]

Yes.

I have shown one way, maybe just one, and others have pointed out different ways.

Where? You said "he's light". You even admittedly that your "weaknesses" are "not really exploitable". When did you show how to beat MK?

Did you skip EVERYTHING I said about playing at the highest level?

Also, MK will not always win, you can't prove it, as NOBODY can know exactly how to beat a character, and it's too early in the game to say you've found every single one of MK's weaknesses or anything of the sort. You really need to read my posts all the way through, then again, maybe so do I.

I'd say you do.

Every character chat has been working on ways to boost their character against Metaknight. I've spent several hours in training mode testing for some kind of an exploit, and fought a lot of MK's trying to develop strategies- and Edrees is the only Peach to have really been able to beat good MK's. Even then, he loses to the highest level ones.

Mew2King's MK isn't going to lose to anyone except another MK. Unless you're Azen.

 

[Praxis]

Funny thing is, I know what I'm talking about, I just choose not to use more than what I've already said. You're going to just say I'm lying about this. Guess what, I really don't care.

Oh-ho! Cool. Can you give me your tournament record then? What notable MK's have you beaten? Who's the best you've fought?

I'll tell you mine. DieSuperFly (DSF).

 

[Justblaze647]

Funny thing about that is, I do know of ways. Second thing is, I know I sound like an ahole. I stopped caring after people already thought I wasn't smart. In fact, I stopped caring before I posted here.

Funny thing is, I know what I'm talking about, I just choose not to use more than what I've already said. You're going to just say I'm lying about this. Guess what, I really don't care.

Who says I'm using sarcasm, I really don't think about what I write sometimes, it just comes out. Why? Because it needs to be said, even if I sound stupid saying it.

MK needs more time. That's that. Take what's been said with a grain of salt. The winds speak the truth, and carry more information then you listen to. With that, I bid you all farewell. Enjoy your fall/winter seasons.

Everything in this post is fail...

 

[XienZo]

I now see 3 solutions to this:
1. Ban MK
2. Unban Shadow Moses Island
3. Make Azen an unlockable character

I only say #2 cause Olimar prefers DDD to MK.