The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Praxis]

Woah, what?
I've never seen someone apologize on the internet before. It doesn't happen. 0.o This is breaking the rules...of the internet...

Wow man, thumbs up.

 

[DRaGZ]

You didn't need to apologize since you essentially did nothing wrong.

But okay.

 

[Ryusuta]

When it comes to YOUR signatures, why pay more?

 

[WakerofWinds]

You didn't need to apologize since you essentially did nothing wrong.

But okay.

I did nothing /wrong/ but I was rude to an extent. The use of sarcasm, for example.

Regardless, just, yeah.

 

[DRaGZ]

I was rude too.

But I'm not going to apologize.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I was rude too.

But I'm not going to apologize.

I was rude first

I don't expect you to apologize.

Also, you didn't spout out random junk, now didja?

 

[Prancing Mad]

I don't know much about the whole meta game business, but I would like to offer a solution to the MK problem. Brawl allows you to self-impose handicaps. If there were instead a necessary handicap imposed, that would allow MK users to keep him, but think twice about using him. I know the handicaps are not overly specific, or fun to use, but at least it would stop the not so great pro MK users to think twice about using him. We would just all need to come up with a reasonable handicap level. Is this a ridiculous notion? Or would this be a reasonable solution? I'm going to post this on another ban thread as well, so You may read it twice

 

[Ryusuta]

If he's really broken, than handicapping him isn't going to help things, n addition to being overly complicated.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that we have a broken character in a fighting game that is completely impossible to hit, yet dies in 5 moves and can kill in 7 moves. THEORETICALLY, if you handicapped the character so that he died in 2 moves and killed at 14, he would be in a worse position. However, our hypothetical broken character is also absolutely impossible to hit, meaning you're just delaying the inevitable by handicapping him.

If Meta Knight is truly as broken as people say (and I still have my doubts, but that's another story), it's not going to make a significant difference to handicap him, even if it weren't already impractical anyway.

 

[pastaboy]

If Meta Knight is truly as broken as people say (and I still have my doubts, but that's another story), it's not going to make a significant difference to handicap him, even if it weren't already impractical anyway.

'..as people say...'
Yes because metaknights brokenness is just a big myth uno, so far only a select few have seen metaknight in action

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't know much about the whole meta game business, but I would like to offer a solution to the MK problem. Brawl allows you to self-impose handicaps. *stops reading*

You're about 200 pages too late, buddy.

 

[Ussi]

handicaps will let MK combo you better off stage. Doesn't up b have set knock back?

 

[Tommy_G]

Handicaps would make the Falco match up harder for Falco. A lot of damage for Falco is done through chain grabs and set ups after the CG. Handicaps would take this away from them.

MK isn't as broken as everyone makes him out to be. Play the game better and MK will get easier.

 

[DRaGZ]

Handicaps would make the Falco match up harder for Falco. A lot of damage for Falco is done through chain grabs and set ups after the CG. Handicaps would take this away from them.

MK isn't as broken as everyone makes him out to be. Play the game better and MK will get easier.

All the anti-ban people say this, but there is never any good reasoning to back it up.

 

[Justblaze647]

And so we go.

Is That a Pendragon Reference???!!?!?!

 

[Praxis]

MK isn't as broken as everyone makes him out to be. Play the game better and MK will get easier.

All the anti-ban people say this, but there is never any good reasoning to back it up.

It's a standard Failure To State fallacy.

Failure To State:
if you make enough attacks, and ask enough questions, you may never have to actually define your own position on the topic.

It implies your opponent sucks at the game and thus has an invalid opinion, while at the same time allowing you to avoid presenting any evidence! Two birds with one stone.

Man, these anti-ban people are just too clever

 

[da K.I.D.]

wow, that is clever...

i didnt even notice that prax. thanks

*not sarcasm*

 

[Metro Knight]

Like Pendragon_ from DOTA? I dunno, it seems like the majority of the pro-MK crowd isn't reading the Panda's thread at the front. Like, people are using MK as a trump card, even though they have played other characters way the #$ more. Example: Overswarm is a ROB player, invented ROB, but he plays MK to have a chance versus MK. Hyrule plays the ICs, but happens to play MK as well. If you saw his ICs you would totally never want to see him play MK, since his ICs are AWESOME.

So, at a local tournament, Wolf vrs DK/Kirby, Wolf is doing well, but then... MK! And the MK player beats the Wolf player. Did the guy play MK all that much? He said "not really, only when I can't win with DK/Kirby", anyways MK is a bit much, and people just use as a trump card to win in tournaments.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Is That a Pendragon Reference???!!?!?!

Oh god, somebody caught me. Nice catch, didn't think anybody would.

Anyway, a handicap really wouldn't work very well, it would eliminate a lot of the fun from the game for some. Wait, then again, so does MK for a lot of people. hmm.....

 

[ShadowLink84]

Like Pendragon_ from DOTA? I dunno, it seems like the majority of the pro-MK crowd isn't reading the Panda's thread at the front. Like, people are using MK as a trump card, even though they have played other characters way the #$ more. Example: Overswarm is a ROB player, invented ROB, but he plays MK to have a chance versus MK. Hyrule plays the ICs, but happens to play MK as well. If you saw his ICs you would totally never want to see him play MK, since his ICs are AWESOME.

So, at a local tournament, Wolf vrs DK/Kirby, Wolf is doing well, but then... MK! And the MK player beats the Wolf player. Did the guy play MK all that much? He said "not really, only when I can't win with DK/Kirby", anyways MK is a bit much, and people just use as a trump card to win in tournaments.

Woah very badly done argument.

For one let us say you lost that matchup.
Now its your turn to CP.
Who do you pick?
You can't be Dk because then your opponent can use DDD.
Same with Falco, Marth and several other characters.

So in order to avoid being at an immediate disadvantage you choose MK.

It doesn't matter if people are using him all the time, its the fact that he overcentralizes.
If Akuma was never used would that mean he is not ban worthy? Of course not.
how much usage a character sees does not mean anything.

If MK is stagnating the metagame, destroying viability to a great degree it makes sense for him to be banworthy.

however he does not do this, he destroys some viability but not all.

What he does do is severely damage the system of CPing.
Even fi you win the 1st match its a must that you win the 2nd match. Since if your opponent decides to go MK once it means that no matter what you can do he can switch his character accordingly and maintain the immediate advantage.

Which is really not good at all.


This in turn is countered by the fact that the advantages he has mostly are 60/40.
That means even if you are at an immediate advantage you can still win. Considering possible stage choices (green greens, corneria) you may be able to even things out.

 

[CR4SH]

Wow, what a hodgepodge. That was really hard to read, and I'm still not sure what the **** you're saying.

The one thing though that stood out enough to bear comment was your initial counterpick statement, which was pretty much wrong. If you lose the first match you get to pick second. I'm not sure what impact that has on your post (because its fairly incoherent).

 

[Praxis]

What he does do is severely damage the system of CPing.
Even fi you win the 1st match its a must that you win the 2nd match. Since if your opponent decides to go MK once it means that no matter what you can do he can switch his character accordingly and maintain the immediate advantage.

Which is really not good at all.


This in turn is countered by the fact that the advantages he has mostly are 60/40.
That means even if you are at an immediate advantage you can still win. Considering possible stage choices (green greens, corneria) you may be able to even things out.

Green Greens only works, as Overswarm pointed out, for characters with a good projectile game, otherwise MK can camp in the right area where he can get 20% gimp kills. T_T So it's not always viable. And it runs a risk...I can't CP Eggz's MK with it, because he seconds Dedede. I ALWAYS beat bad Dedede's there, but a Dedede that is my equal I'd be scared of there.

Corneria is banned in several states including mine.

And ALL the MK's in WA know to ban Greens against me. My reputation for ****** everyone on that stage precedes me, and the first thing people do when they hear they are fighting Praxis is to either ban Green Greens or Jungle Japes. So...I'm flat out of luck.

As you pointed out, MK destroys the counterpicking system.

The biggest problem with your post is that I can't tell what side you're on. The poll says you voted against the ban. Why would you do that, when you recognize the inherent problem MK causes in the CPing system?

 

[St. Viers]

^^learn to quote, crash---who are you talking to?

 

[IShotLazer]

People are missing almost the entire point for some reason...
It doesn't matter whether or not Metaknight is difficult to play or not as long as he is within the possibilities of human finger and mind capabilities it doesn't matter at all. The fact is he is the dominating character.
Many pros are ditching their characters to play Metaknight, and are consistently doing much, much better. I think a decent point was brought up recently by Mikehaggar, that if other pros can get at least 3rd place with other characters it means that Metaknight isn't leaps and bounds higher than everyone else. Though I agree with this I still see Metaknight as a banable character.
Sheik never dominated tournaments like Metaknight has. Metaknight wins 70%-80% of all tournaments. Shiek has NEVER seen such numbers...
Sheik also has SEVERAL counters, even early game she had counters and problems with other characters.

I agree that people who practiced a character and having that character being banned would suck. However, people act like their time was wasted. In the process you were learning Mindgames, the physics of brawl, tech skill, and possibly making money. You should be able to play another character in a week or two. If you can't, maybe Metaknight is even more broken than I give him credit for.

People really need to stop using the stupid excuse "Wow, you guys are just lazy just play the game more and find out how to beat Metaknight" and the other one "The creators of the game wouldn't make such an unbalanced character". The first one is just arrogant and there's a lot of tournament data that directly goes against what you are saying.


Also people bring up popularity with almost no idea as to why it's being talked about.
Here is an example. If Metaknight wasn't popular, as in he is only played by 1/40 people. This gives people going to a tournament the ability to play other characters other than Metaknight, and if lucky enough maybe never play him. That allows other characters to flourish. His popularity has also sky rocketed his Metagame much quicker than other characters, just like what happened with Snake. The only problem is Snake's game has stagnanted much quicker than that of Metaknight's.
Yes, Metaknight is popular because he is good. All I'm saying is that because he is popular you can guarantee that you are going to be fighting Metaknights in the tournament you're going to.
Ice Climbers are a great character in Melee, however I have never actually fought them in a tournament... Lucky too because I don't know how to fight them effectively (for that reason too).

The actual question being asked here is simple.
Is Metaknight destroying Brawl? I think the answer is yes. Yeah, if people wanted to everyone could just pick up Metaknight. That sounds fun. For Brawl to be a flourishing game it still has to warrant fun, if it doesn't do that than there is no point in playing it. Being able to use other characters is more fun.
Other character give more variety to a game. Other characters are sometimes played better by people simply by the way they think. With Metaknight gone, all of the other characters left still have counters.
Will there still be a heavily Tier'd system? Yes, but at least openings for other characters in the tournament scene exists.

 

[M.K]

^^learn to quote, crash---who are you talking to?

Or you could use context clues and figure out that he was talking about ShadowLink84's post.

>.>

 

[Praxis]

^^learn to quote, crash---who are you talking to?

You didn't quote either, so it looks like your post was directed at me.

 

[St. Viers]

I included a name. and as for context, there were two posts that that could have applied to: shadowlink's and the one 2 above him

 

[Flayl]

Isn't Yoshi Island (melee) a MK cp too?

 

[Mmac]

Isn't Yoshi Island (melee) a MK cp too?

For Yoshi, yes... but I am not sure about anyone else... I heard MetaKnight actually does well there

 

[Steeler]

the boundaries are ridiculously small. shuttle loop bait. and the slopes work in mk's favor.

 

[Drecker]

Metaknight will not be banned.

 

[salaboB]

Metaknight will not be banned.

Have you considered becoming a psychic? I believe they make good money if they're accurate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Green Greens only works, as Overswarm pointed out, for characters with a good projectile game, otherwise MK can camp in the right area where he can get 20% gimp kills. T_T So it's not always viable. And it runs a risk...I can't CP Eggz's MK with it, because he seconds Dedede. I ALWAYS beat bad Dedede's there, but a Dedede that is my equal I'd be scared of there.

Corneria is banned in several states including mine.

And ALL the MK's in WA know to ban Greens against me. My reputation for ****** everyone on that stage precedes me, and the first thing people do when they hear they are fighting Praxis is to either ban Green Greens or Jungle Japes. So...I'm flat out of luck.

As you pointed out, MK destroys the counterpicking system.

The biggest problem with your post is that I can't tell what side you're on. The poll says you voted against the ban. Why would you do that, when you recognize the inherent problem MK causes in the CPing system?

I am rather neutral.
The main reason I voted no is because I feel that the data we have just isn't enough.
For example let us say MK has to break the number of 50% in order to be ban worthy.
Currently he is around 35. We cannot simply ban him because he is coming close to it.

We mus also consider the fact that the game is still young. granted that argument is getting old but it still holds true currently. I would give the game at least til late December before moving towards a ban. Mainly so that we can ensure that once MK does get banned, there won't be any argument for him to be unbanned.

It would also ensure that if we ban him prematurely, that we would avoid having to go through the process of getting him unban. Hence why I said no.

its just too early for me otherwise I most likely would have voted yes if this were December and the results were as they were now.

How do you know I voted no btw?

 

[salaboB]

How do you know I voted no btw?

It's a public poll, other users can see where you voted.

There was a little note warning you of that before you selected your option.

 

[ShadowLink84]

there was? @_@

 

[Ryusuta]

For one let us say you lost that matchup.
Now its your turn to CP.
Who do you pick?
You can't be Dk because then your opponent can use DDD.
Same with Falco, Marth and several other characters.

If it's your counterpick, the opponent usually has to choose his character first.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If it's your counterpick, the opponent usually has to choose his character first.

whoops my error. I keep making that mistake and assuming he chose MK first. (my brain works weird)

however its basically the same issue.
He announces he chooses MK.
You choose DK.
What stage would you go to that would guarantee he is at a disadvantage?

You can't choose green greens because you have no projectile, and even then he does have the means of bypassing it.

Or he could have banned green greens in which case, you're going to have a hard time since you have no other stage that will help tip the sales in your favor.

Either way he still does damage to the CP system, especially if your opponent wins first.

 

[The Real Inferno]

The stage is picked before characters >.>. If he wins, you declare...say...Green Greens. And he declares Meta. You declare G&W. That would be the order.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

if you want to win all your battles, choose metaknight! if you want to main someone fast!! sonic? NAHHHH METAKNIGHT!!! if you wanna choose someone slow... ganondorf? NAHHHHH SNAKE!!! or mr. d3 =)

 

[Kookie]

if you want to win all your battles, choose metaknight! if you want to main someone fast!! sonic? NAHHHH METAKNIGHT!!! if you wanna choose someone slow... ganondorf? NAHHHHH SNAKE!!! or mr. d3 =)

You've shown us all the light now.

I'm convinced, and now I'm converting.

 

[The Real Inferno]

About the poll. I was looking over the results, and I think it's very telling to take a look at what people are voting which way in the results.