The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Leh]

While akuma (I KNOW ITS OVERUSED) wasn't banned, did he win all the tournaments? I mean taking 100% is not reasonable, local tournaments might lack proper MK reppage. That doesn't make him any worse?

Or do you mean tournaments that actually mean something? =\

This line of reasoning is horrible, ESPECIALLY with the akuma use.
Akuma is on a whole new tier of broken then you cant even hope to imagine.
Unless you've actually fought against another HUMAN akuma player in a serious match (as in for money or tourney). You have absolutely no idea how broken Akuma is.

And to the person that thinks Snake has a slightly losing matchup, i highly disagree. I believe its dead even.

 

[Overswarm]

I'd also like to point out that HOBO 11 had decently diverse results. The problem is that people have been falsely saying Azen was MK, when the only time he used MK was against M2K, before which they agreed to split. Had Azen used Falcon, would everyone be saying that Azen used Falcon for the whole tournament? Doubtful. Rumors/exagerations get perpetuated far to often, and this happens to be one of the worst. HOBO11 is easiest described as "M2K/Azen **** the competition, like they always do", M2K winning with MK shouldn't be all that unexpected, he is the best player in the country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pay4vxdISi8

^first vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtBPV2li8G4&feature=related

^5th vid

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Alpha-Azen used Metaknight against Lee dude. For the majority of their set (didn't he straight up tell us that he did better against Lee with MK than Lucario).

But yes, it was probably just a player specific thing (since he also said that Lee was the only player that he did better against with MK than Lucario). But he did use MK in more than one important match, which counts as him going as both Lucario and Metaknight.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Damgz, forgot about Lee.

My point still stands, using MK for a handful of matches =/= him maining MK. Azen brought up a specific point once where at an MLG in 2006 he went Marth the whole tourament, but against Chu in the finals/semis he used Falcon; Azen went on to ask if that meant he mained Falcon the whole tournament.

 

[Daimonster]

Overswarm, your my new hero.

Topic related post: I am interested as to why M2k made a thread about how to defeat BAD metaknight users. I.E those who finish using their f.tilt string when neither of the first two hits connect. Using shuttleloop as a combo starter and not a combo finisher. Bad tornado usage as a combo starter and not a combo ender. Etc etc?

 

[SmashChu]

MODS IN, DON'T LET HIM LEAVE YOUR SIGHT!

Real question: Do you think that either side is has a majority "set in their ways" meaning that no reasonable argument will get them out, is each side giving or taking, or are we always going to be divided?

Basically, is the situation we are in going to change or what?

Defiantly. This is how the internet operates.

 

[brinboy789]

snake has a slightly losing matchup to MK.

snake is neutral to MK. this has been approved by the snake and MK boards. you can search the threads up if you want

 

[Dark Sonic]

I said it counts as him using both Lucario and Metaknight (maining Lucario and Seconding MK at the tournament).

Why? Because he used Metaknight it finals, not some random match. As in, he used MK in a match that really matters, and that he might've actually lost had he not gone MK (not saying he would've[/]b, saying he could've)

 

[Grunt]

So if we ban metaknight, what happens to Random users??????????????????????

 

[_Phloat_]

This line of reasoning is horrible, ESPECIALLY with the akuma use.
Akuma is on a whole new tier of broken then you cant even hope to imagine.
Unless you've actually fought against another HUMAN akuma player in a serious match (as in for money or tourney). You have absolutely no idea how broken Akuma is.

And to the person that thinks Snake has a slightly losing matchup, i highly disagree. I believe its dead even.

It was supposed to be an extreme example. Akuma was the best. No question. Did he even win all of the tournaments before he was banned? I feel like needing 100% win rate was a bit unfair.

In other words.

If akuma was an easy ban choice to make, and he didn't even win 100% of tournaments, is that fair to expect MK to? Akuma is broken!

Obviously small, local tournaments don't mean much, so 100% refers to fairly large tournaments...

 

[Overswarm]

Damgz, forgot about Lee.

My point still stands, using MK for a handful of matches =/= him maining MK. Azen brought up a specific point once where at an MLG in 2006 he went Marth the whole tourament, but against Chu in the finals/semis he used Falcon; Azen went on to ask if that meant he mained Falcon the whole tournament.

It was pretty obvious when he went Falcon that he did so due to a variety of factors. Him knowing Chu, Chu knowing him, him not feeling comfortable with other characters, etc., etc.

It was an important match that showed Falcon was a necessary part of his game for that tournament.

However, this wasn't consistent nor was Falcon showing to be a wrecking crew elsewhere.


Azen has gone Lucario through most of the tournament since Brawl's release, but he has used MK in the end on several occasions. Lee also plays Lucario on a frequent basis and knows the character well as well as playing against Lucarios on a frequent basis. Him knowing the matchup was what turned the tide. Azen went MK and then dominated; this is not coincidence.

 

[choknater]

nice vids azen is amazing

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

My personal criteria for getting any character banned:
1. Character takes all 3 top spots and 6 of the top 8 spots at regional/national tournaments
2. Character does this consistently for 3 months straight.

Possibly that is harsh, but whatever, banning a character that also happens to be the most popular character in the game is pretty extreme.

I'd also like to point out that HOBO 11 had decently diverse results. The problem is that people have been falsely saying Azen was MK, when the only time he used MK was against M2K, before which they agreed to split. Had Azen used Falcon, would everyone be saying that Azen used Falcon for the whole tournament? Doubtful. Rumors/exagerations get perpetuated far to often, and this happens to be one of the worst. HOBO11 is easiest described as "M2K/Azen **** the competition, like they always do", M2K winning with MK shouldn't be all that unexpected, he is the best player in the country.

The videos of him using MK in the losers final are in my youtube account its not false accusations.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pay4vxdISi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNwuFkLuvak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mUthU_qpQY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPsFcG12VDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtBPV2li8G4

edit: ok you said you forgot about him already nvm.

I still think that it matters. Actually I think matches near the finals count even more because its against higher skilled opponents. If he didn't go MK he would have won a lot less money.

Basically it's the same as when people say if you used ganon the 1st round against a scrub it doesn't mean you did MK/Ganon. Except its Reversed. kind of?

 

[Grunt]

My question is srs.
So if we ban metaknight, what happens to Random users?

 

[Daimonster]

My question is srs.
So if we ban metaknight, what happens to Random users?

Stop trolling. Srsly, if a random character box selects a Banned character...Guess what? The character is banned, thus making another random selection necessary. You must be dearly retarted.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

My question is srs.
So if we ban metaknight, what happens to Random users?

Well, if they happen to get MK, I'd assume they restart (with the same conditions) the match and continue until it isn't MK anymore.

At least, that'd be the simplest solution. :/

 

[Dark Sonic]

snake is neutral to MK. this has been approved by the snake and MK boards. you can search the threads up if you want

MK boards have it as 55:45.

Snake boards have it as 5 stars (can someone translate their star system for me)? I'm not sure what that means, but it's the same difficulty as DK, who's long been said to have an advantage over Snake.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Why dont we have a poll? I'm just curious to see the results.

 

[Shiri]

I think Random should include Meta Knight. I don't see why not.

 

[AlexX]

MK boards have it as 55:45.

Isn't that close enough to count as neutral? If not I fail to see how it's significant enough for MK to be considered a counter to Snake...

 

[Zelc]

Isn't that close enough to count as neutral? If not I fail to see how it's significant enough for MK to be considered a counter to Snake...

The problem is that a 55:45 matchup means the unique best counterpick to MK (all else equal) is MK himself. Granted, style and matchup experience can influence that, but in the long run, this won't prevent the metagame from centralizing into just MK.

 

[Leh]

It was supposed to be an extreme example. Akuma was the best. No question. Did he even win all of the tournaments before he was banned? I feel like needing 100% win rate was a bit unfair.

In other words.

If akuma was an easy ban choice to make, and he didn't even win 100% of tournaments, is that fair to expect MK to? Akuma is broken!

Obviously small, local tournaments don't mean much, so 100% refers to fairly large tournaments...

Any tourney that a player entered that knew how to do Air Fireball, Red Fireball, and Teleport would win, easily, with little to no work. No character in SF:T2 can even handle akuma.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Banning Meta Knight? No. He isn't insanely broken to the ban point. Banning him would cause a lot of outrage. I main Marth/Lucas, But I oppose banning Meta STRONGLY.

This is kind of funny. Wonder how many people are doing this to make it seem like there only reason for not wanting MK banned isn't because they main him. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186762

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The problem is that a 55:45 matchup means the unique best counterpick to MK (all else equal) is MK himself. Granted, style and matchup experience can influence that, but in the long run, this won't prevent the metagame from centralizing into just MK.

anyone who says 55:45 is "even" needs to relearn the word "even"

 

[Fletch]

Stop trolling. Srsly, if a random character box selects a Banned character...Guess what? The character is banned, thus making another random selection necessary. You must be dearly retarted.

I don't know if you would call his question retarted, and I think calling it ******** would even be a little too strong. Obviously you're putting yourself at a large potential disadvantage by playing random, and this could be one potential benefit. The chances of getting MK are very slim anyways, and I think this is a legit question for random users.

 

[Mew2King]

Overswarm, your my new hero.

Topic related post: I am interested as to why M2k made a thread about how to defeat BAD metaknight users. I.E those who finish using their f.tilt string when neither of the first two hits connect. Using shuttleloop as a combo starter and not a combo finisher. Bad tornado usage as a combo starter and not a combo ender. Etc etc?

it's not to bad MKs, it's the matchup in general

i explained why in the long run it's good to grab or up B out of shield or do "something" right after you react to blocking any of the hits from F Tilt, but the fact still is that most ppl do all 3, especially if it's not spaced. Up B rarely combos from anything other than Uair, and much of the time it's not a true combo, so it can be air dodged out of very often, leaving the other MK vulnerable. Tornado is never a combo starter... it doesn't lead to anything, it's something to use randomly or to punish air dodges in certain situations (or to use at the edge or recover with).


Also, Azen's Lucario does better vs Me, InfernoOmni, Plank, Forte, and Stiltz. Lee was the only exception. Azen's Lucario beats me almost half the time, but in MK dittos I win the vast majority. He beat me 2 matches and lost 1 (although I ***** him the last game on Delphino, he still won the first two of Lucario vs MK) but I beat him 2 stock mid % (or mid low % maybe) in the MK dittos that we had. Although Plank says he wins MK dittos vs Azen, Azen 2 stocks him with Lucario often, and I saw him almost 3 stock Forte once in tourney, and if you've ever played Forte in person you would know he's extremely good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Also, Azen's Lucario does better vs Me, InfernoOmni, Plank, Forte, and Stiltz. Lee was the only exception. Azen's Lucario beats me almost half the time, but in MK dittos I win the vast majority. He beat me 2 matches and lost 1 (although I ***** him the last game on Delphino, he still won the first two of Lucario vs MK) but I beat him 2 stock mid % (or mid low % maybe) in the MK dittos that we had. Although Plank says he wins MK dittos vs Azen, Azen 2 stocks him with Lucario often, and I saw him almost 3 stock Forte once in tourney, and if you've ever played Forte in person you would know he's extremely good.

Still? or did he just used to do better with lucario? Anyway that shouldn't surprise you because Azen is a better lucario than he is a MK.

I'd be curious as to what the case will be if he gets better with MK.

 

[Leh]

MK boards have it as 55:45.

Snake boards have it as 5 stars (can someone translate their star system for me)? I'm not sure what that means, but it's the same difficulty as DK, who's long been said to have an advantage over Snake.

I could give a **** about snake boards personally (though i do post there).
Random snake players that have never attended tournaments PLUS snakes that have never placed well say the matchup is uneven (not to say that they are ALL like that, but alot of them are). I've been to alot of tourneys, and have won nearly all of them (dominant player in Florida, just won Impact Clash in Georgia) and i believe Snake vs MK is even.

When i fought M2K at FAST, i went 1 - 1 with his MK (i lost the set, losing to d3 on FD when he counterpicked me after the first game, which i won with 2 stocks left). MK is a great character but can be beaten and DEFINITELY is not banworthy.

(no one take this as me thinking im as good as m2k, because clearly im not, just stating that i have played his MK, as well as others)

 

[Daimonster]

it's not to bad MKs, it's the matchup in general
.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mew2King. You explained very well how your competition plays against you.

 

[Tommy_G]

Maybe when you lose to a metaknight...did you ever consider that... just maybe..... they could be a better player than you?

No, I'm sure whoever posts that MK is godly, ban-worthy broken must have thought of that before posting to make sure they're not making a complete idiot of themselves.

 

[kupo15]

My question to those who dont want him banned is, where do you draw the line in saying, here is where the metagame stops or this is when the appropriate time to consider banning him is? What exactly are you guys looking for for proof of him being ban worthy?

 

[Julz]

The burden of proof shouldn't be on anyone until we've made a criteria that everyone can agree on. I don't believe "can't be defeated" is acceptable for a gray area such as metaknight.

 

[da K.I.D.]

^^^trufax^^

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Let me just say that I'm rather neutral in this debate. I think that MK is pretty broken right now, but I just believe we should definitely wait longer to explore other possible ways of beating him before taking any action. Also, yes, we are talking about this subject in the SBR, but no worries. Once banning MK becomes an actual possibility, we'll issue a warning to the boards (so MK mains will have time to see it coming) and we'll begin serious discussion, debate, and analysis of the metagame. To start this thread off, I figured I might as well share something I posted in the SBR regarding this subject. Keep in mind this is just my own words and opinions, AND THIS IS ONLY ABOUT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE METAGAME. I don't care if you can beat your buddy's MK with Captain Falcon. That isn't what this is about. But anyways, here is the post:




"Well, one of the biggest problems with MK is just that he doesn't really have any even matchups or bad stages. He can't be counterpicked per se (with the possible exception of Diddy on FD, but I don't think Diddy can handle MK on many other stages).

Let me make a scenario for you to illustrate the biggest problem with MK so far. Lets say I use Mario in tournaments. Mario has a nearly unwinnable matchup against MK (or so I hear), so I need to use a secondary to take care of MK. But who do I pick up? Snake? No, MKs have learned how to beat all but the best Snakes out there. G&W? No, he still doesn't do great against MK. DDD, Falco, ROB? Nope, one of their worst matchups is MK right now. So I have to pick the one and only character that can handle MK: MK himself. Then I begin playing with MK so I can be good enough with him to make him my second... and I start to notice that I'm winning matches much more easily. I realize that no counterpick, be it a stage or a character, is bad for me because I can just switch to MK. I begin to rely on MK more and more whenever I feel pressured, so I start to pick him in the first game too, just to be safe. And that's when I discover that my MK, a character I only recently picked up, is better than my Mario in every possible situation. Soon I just stop playing Mario altogether because it is so much simpler and more effective to just play MK.

But lets assume there is no MK anymore, and Snake is the second best. Mario has a pretty tough matchup against Snake, so I have to pick up a secondary to beat him. Who do I pick up? Well, I have my choice from DDD, ROB, Falco, Pikachu, etc. There are quite a few characters I can choose from that do well, or even have an advantage against him (those characters above are actually hard counters). But each of those counterpick characters have their own inherent problems, bad matchups, and what not, so I can't really rely on them whenever I feel pressured against a character that goes even or has an advantage against them. In the end, I continue with Mario as my main and I use my second for Mario's difficult matchups but not much else. You know, what a second is supposed to be for.


Thats the biggest reason people are calling for MK's ban. In theory (and its actually happening currently), everyone will eventually switch to MK because they all need some sort of answer against him. And the worst part about this is that its like a virus. As soon as one good MK appears to tear up the competition in his region, a few people will realize that they need an answer to MK. So they pick up MK. Then because they pick up MK, more people need an answer to MK. So they pick up MK. Unfortunately, this isn't theorycraft or anything, since it has happened in several regions already and is becoming much more prevalent. Many high-level players have picked up MK in an effort to get him banned, and even tons of high-level MK players admit that MK should probably get banned. Of course, a big problem to this is the mindset people get into; matchups aren't set in stone, especially this early in the game, which is why I feel taking action now is much too soon. But one way or another, I can honestly see MK getting banned in a few months if a counter or two is not found soon."

I am not trying to be sarcastic and critisize you, but why the hell are we still playing this sadly broken and unbalanced version of smash? Isn't it easier at this point to mod the **** thing and practically make our own perfect version?

THE DEDICATED MODS AND TOP PLAYERS HERE ARE OBVIOUSLY MUCH MORE KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT THIS GAME THAN IT'S OWN FREAK'N CREATOR.

It is time to make a PC port or something. We are the ones descussing balance and physics, not the designers... If we did this instead of putting a world wide ban on Metaknight and leaving thousands of players out in the cold, Brawl could really go to the next level. No longer would we need to be sick of all of the game's 'flaws' and bad bits of attention to detail. I would fully accept whatever the top players came up with as the Official version of "Brawl Homebrew" or whatever. I'm serious. At least make a Gecko USB standard setting or something. Good old North American enginuity beats Japanese-Crap any day. Brawl rules!

 

[Julz]

@SmashBrother2008: We'd be excluding way more players by doing that.

Regarding casual players, if they discover a tournament is being held then wouldn't that same source tell those casual players about what the rules are and what stages/characters are banned?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why dont we have a poll? I'm just curious to see the results.

Because it would be overly welmingly in favor of banning Metaknight considering how a ton of people would make accounts simply to take place in the poll. Maybe if it were structured and only allowed people who have been here at least a certain amount of time or are a certain rank... Personally, I don't support Metaknight being banned but if there was strong evidence that showed that doing so would create greater variety in characters that actually place, then I'd reconsider.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

@SmashBrother2008: We'd be excluding way more players by doing that.

Regarding casual players, if they discover a tournament is being held then wouldn't that same source tell those casual players about what the rules are and what stages/characters are banned?

Well, the idea is to NOT let characters get banned and to also give every character a fair chance. Wouldn't it be nice to have a smash game were EVERY matchup was exactly 50:50?

Don't say that's impossible becuase anything is possible.

 

[DraKmoN001]

Well, the idea is to NOT let characters get banned and to also give every character a fair chance. Wouldn't it be nice to have a smash game were EVERY matchup was exactly 50:50?

Don't say that's impossible becuase anything is possible.

How about you consider who would be in charge of maintaining this golden standard, whether or not it'd be possible to have that many players agree on a single standard anyway, and the minimum requirements to get the pseudo patching to work for each individual Wii.

Possible? Perhaps.

Practical? Certainly not.

 

[The Real Inferno]

So if we ban metaknight, what happens to Random users??????????????????????

I get a reset.

 

[AlexX]

The problem is that a 55:45 matchup means the unique best counterpick to MK (all else equal) is MK himself. Granted, style and matchup experience can influence that, but in the long run, this won't prevent the metagame from centralizing into just MK.

A ditto match isn't a "counter", it's "neutral".

And why does he need a counter to be beaten? Jun in SF3 and Xianghua in Soul Calibur have no bad or even neutral match-ups (making them technically BETTER than MK since most agree he's neutral with at least Yoshi, and close enough to neutral with a couple others), yet they aren't banned in their respective games, nor do the dominate their metagames.