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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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adumbrodeus

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Sorry that I was silly enough to assume that intelligent players would be able to realize that my criteria for a banning call would be more than being beaten.
We're competitive gamers, we're legalistic because we play to win... you should know this.

It's this case in many games if you HAVE to compare.
How many times would you see a low tier beating a top tier in another game.
Of course it was possible, but rare.
... and how does this relate at all?

This line of reasoning is horrible, ESPECIALLY with the akuma use.
Akuma is on a whole new tier of broken then you cant even hope to imagine.
Unless you've actually fought against another HUMAN akuma player in a serious match (as in for money or tourney). You have absolutely no idea how broken Akuma is.
Generally Akuma is brought up for Reductio Ad Absurdum, aka, your logic is bad because it protects characters as broken as Akuma, or the like.

And to the person that thinks Snake has a slightly losing matchup, i highly disagree. I believe its dead even.
And why is this?

Better range, rushdown, recovery harassment, etc.

All Snake does is eliminate the tornado and drill rush (which isn't too good anyway) with 'nades and kill him early. It's simply not enough.

Well, the idea is to NOT let characters get banned and to also give every character a fair chance. Wouldn't it be nice to have a smash game were EVERY matchup was exactly 50:50?

Don't say that's impossible becuase anything is possible.
Anything is possible GIVEN an infinite amount of time. Perfect balance requires perfect equilibrium, which means balance of an infinite number of factors. While technically not impossible, for all practical purposes it is impossible.
 

DRaGZ

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A ditto match isn't a "counter", it's "neutral".

And why does he need a counter to be beaten? Jun in SF3 and Xianghua in Soul Calibur have no bad or even neutral match-ups (making them technically BETTER than MK since most agree he's neutral with at least Yoshi, and close enough to neutral with a couple others), yet they aren't banned in their respective games, nor do the dominate their metagames.
*in MythBusters fashion* There's your problem!

I dunno a lot about SF3, but the thing about SC2 is that it was much more about how well characters were baited into attacks that led to particularly brutal combos over and over. Guard Impacting made it so that nearly any character is at least very strong defensively, so the characters that eventually stood out were those that were either extremely powerful (Mitsurugi, Taki, Cervantes) or were extremely good in a wide variety of ranges (Xianghua, Ivy).

Once the level of play got high enough, Guard Impacts made it so that the game basically came down to spacing yourself well enough so that you can find a hole to do that ridiculous combo (or in Ivy's case, the strongest grab in the game that takes like 1/3 of your health away) and the higher the level of play the more these distinctions mattered (i.e. either really strong or really good in a variety of ranges). Why do you think the largest SC2 tournament ever eventually came down to Cervantes, arguably the most powerful character in the game in terms of attack strength, and Ivy, definitely the most diverse range of attacks in the game?

In the case of Xianghua, she has speed and range, but her ability to attack at different ranges isn't nearly as good as Ivy's which is why at higher levels of play, Ivy can have an advantage; she just needs to find two good holes and Xianghua is finished, which is somewhat easy for Ivy to do since her range is so variable, whereas Xianghua is always forced to get closer to Ivy to do her more deadly combos.

In the case of Brawl, it really comes down to three distinct zones of play: on the ground, in the air, and off the stage. Every single character is at the very least just average in one of these zones, except MetaKnight. MetaKnight is ****, not just good, **** in all of them.

This is why you can't really compare SC2 to Brawl or vice versa. Their mechanics of why their tier lists or match-ups are spread out that way are very different.

And yes, it's pretty much impossible to balance a game perfectly. Starcraft, definitely one of the most competitive games on Earth is accordingly balanced by Blizzard on a regular basis still has discrepancies, namely that it's very hard for a Zerg player to be as good as a Terran or Protoss player. And even card games that have ban lists and such, like YGO or M:tG, are checked for balance all the time but still result in lots of one-sided deck archetypes.
 

AlexX

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Please note I was talking purely in terms of matchups, not overall game balance. By the logic people are using here she should be banned due to no bad matchups, yet she's not. I know she's from an entirely different game, but that doesn't change that her matchups are all in her favor.

I suppose I could have also gone the weeaboo route and mentioned Frieza from the DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi games (cheap jerk is always top-tier in all 3 games, IIRC), but I can't recall his matchups too well aside from the fact he's just good against most of the cast... He may have a few bad ones and I just forgot them.

EDIT: Blah, darn you and your ninja edits... I'll deal with the rest in a moment, but for now I must note that your "Ivy is better at higher levels of play" argument doesn't make any sense, as matchups are determined with the highest levels of play in mind, and from what I recall Xianghua still has at least a slight advantage in hers vs Ivy... but I'll double-check just to be sure.
 

Dark Sonic

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Please note I was talking purely in terms of matchups, not overall game balance. By the logic people are using here she should be banned due to no bad matchups, yet she's not. I know she's from an entirely different game, but that doesn't change that her matchups are all in her favor.
You know that's exactly why we're not looking at just matchups right? Matchups are important, but if they're not taken in context of the game, then there's no way to tell exactly how they affect the game's balance.

Also "Leh"="Afro Thunder". I still don't agree with him on the matchup though
 

DRaGZ

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Match-ups in SC2 were more or less based on how well the match-ups generally did at tournaments. The reason Xianghua is reflected as better than Ivy is because she is muuuuch easier to use than Ivy, especially Ivy's crazy grabs, while providing significant rewards. A fully mastered Ivy would generally do better because she would have much more control over the spacing.
 

pastaboy

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why are we still comparing it to other gamesbroke characters,it doesn't help us learn anything moar about bannin metaknight. But im pretty sure everythiing literally has been said at least once in this thread about y or y not to ban metaknight, its just going to get repetative.
 

I S1NC0 I

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Why do people want to ban Meta Knight in the first place? Yes, some people consider him to fast and to cheap, but he has a lot of weaknesses. He doesn't have projectiles, he can't block projectiles with his arial attacks, and he doesn't have much KO power. He's my main and I've played a lot of people that could beat me when I was being Meta Knight. HE ISN'T CHEAP!
 

pastaboy

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stop trollin, im pretty sure nado stops some prpojectiles, iono and lol projectiles arnt hard to dodge, he has tuns of ko power at lightning speed.you must not play a good mk
 

DRaGZ

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Why do people want to ban Meta Knight in the first place? Yes, some people consider him to fast and to cheap, but he has a lot of weaknesses. He doesn't have projectiles, he can't block projectiles with his arial attacks, and he doesn't have much KO power. He's my main and I've played a lot of people that could beat me when I was being Meta Knight. HE ISN'T CHEAP!
Lol at no KO power.

Lol at lack of projectiles.

Lol at can't block projectiles with "arial" attacks.

This is pretty much a roflcopter in action.
 

Steel

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Why do people want to ban Meta Knight in the first place? Yes, some people consider him to fast and to cheap, but he has a lot of weaknesses. He doesn't have projectiles, he can't block projectiles with his arial attacks, and he doesn't have much KO power. He's my main and I've played a lot of people that could beat me when I was being Meta Knight. HE ISN'T CHEAP!
You must be really, really bad.
 

Overswarm

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Lol, you main Zelda. That guy specifically said the Snake and MK boards say the matchup is even.

"Everyone" acknowledges this? More like everyone who doesn't know crap about the matchup.
MK has the advantage on Snake.

Go ahead, call me ignorant.
 

S.B.Soldier

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god... this thread needs to stop... I have seen 2 sides... nothing new in roughly the last 35-40 pages... god... please administrator.. put this topic out of its misery... i liked the my little ponies topic better
 

FuPoo

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im not up for banning metaknight sadly

but if the ban WAS to occur, haha id say let the random users have a legit shot at metaknight
 

choknater

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Master Raven

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Oh sorry, I thought you meant random box users as in random mains... although I'd prefer a hard ban if it does occur.
 

kupo15

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I couldnt find it to quote it but someone said something similar to:

"If someone beats you with metaknight, why dont you just assume the player is better than you and its not the character!" (something like this)

I play noobs all the time at college and I beat them pretty bad with several characters and never loose. One decided to try MK against my MK and they were 10X harder to beat.

I think if this was with Melee's engine (l canceling, hitstun) MK wouldn't be as bad since everyone can combo. Right now, MK is about the only one who can combo! And for those who think this would be broken, I think that if L canceling and hitstun were in, this would be a better version of N64 where everyone can combo pretty well. Idk about the 0-death but I think they would be possible (at least with Pit)

I think this thread wont get anywhere unless we agree on the criteria for ban and time frame and such. Until then, its just a bunch of ppl arguing without "legitimate" reason....all I hear is "thats not good enough" then what is!?
 

choknater

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"no bad matchups" is so dumb lmao

fox sheik marth and sheik had no bad matchups, but they had evens

metaknight has evens

lawl

referencing bad players using mk to win is so irrelevant
 

Master Raven

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I don't get it.

Any time a bad player switches to MK, I can still beat them easily unless I'm using a character I hardly use, but then again matchup knowledge does help since I really wanna get good vs MK.
 

The Real Inferno

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So is this thread about Metaknight yet, or is it still about the nature of debate?
In honor of your avatar it is now about Weavile's place in the OU Metagame without Garchomp, go!

As for comparing Meta to counter-less top tiers in other games. Most of those games have mechanisms in them that allow the other characters to compete with those characters anyway (SF3 had a parry system that could turn the tide rapidly and SC2 had the Guard Impacts that left any opponent absolutely helpless to the combo of choice, even Melee had Wavedashing to even things up in approaching and speed). It's not really fair to keep comparing Meta to these characters right now as there is no universal method of evening the score if he truely has no bad matchups (Im not saying he doesn't).
 

da K.I.D.

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I couldnt find it to quote it but someone said something similar to:

"If someone beats you with metaknight, why dont you just assume the player is better than you and its not the character!" (something like this)

I play noobs all the time at college and I beat them pretty bad with several characters and never loose. One decided to try MK against my MK and they were 10X harder to beat.

I think if this was with Melee's engine (l canceling, hitstun) MK wouldn't be as bad since everyone can combo. Right now, MK is about the only one who can combo! And for those who think this would be broken, I think that if L canceling and hitstun were in, this would be a better version of N64 where everyone can combo pretty well. Idk about the 0-death but I think they would be possible (at least with Pit)

I think this thread wont get anywhere unless we agree on the criteria for ban and time frame and such. Until then, its just a bunch of ppl arguing without "legitimate" reason....all I hear is "thats not good enough" then what is!?
quoted for truth, especiallly that last paragraph

and @ chok, referencing bad players that use MK shows that he makes anyone that plays with him better because hes an unbelievably OP (and broken) character, i dont see why you dont think thats a valid statement
 

choknater

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and @ chok, referencing bad players that use MK shows that he makes anyone that plays with him better because hes an unbelievably OP (and broken) character, i dont see why you dont think thats a valid statement
that only says that he is easy to pick up. bad players are still bad players and they do not apply AT ALL to the metagame.

metagame = top level stuff, right?

In honor of your avatar it is now about Weavile's place in the OU Metagame without Garchomp, go!
Still a good skymin counter. Kinda sucks that beating skymin forces you to use ice shard instead of ice punch though.
 

S.B.Soldier

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quote: "Why? I don't see the logic in this idea. "

I dont see the logic in this thread

i just destroyed a MK with marth... with practice of range he can be beaten its not impossible... sure kdj wipes the floor with me... i never get to practice with people of his calibur
 

VulgarHandGestures

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that only says that he is easy to pick up. bad players are still bad players and they do not apply AT ALL to the metagame.

metagame = top level stuff, right?
if metaknight makes bad players into much more dangerous opponents, what do you think he does to decent players? really good players? the best players in the country?
 

choknater

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quote: "Why? I don't see the logic in this idea. "

I dont see the logic in this thread

i just destroyed a MK with marth... with practice of range he can be beaten its not impossible... sure kdj wipes the floor with me... i never get to practice with people of his calibur
at least the floors are clean
 

Dark Sonic

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"no bad matchups" is so dumb lmao

fox sheik marth and sheik had no bad matchups, but they had evens
Fox-Falco
Shiek-Ice Climbers
Marth-Shiek, Captain Falcon.

No bad matchups? They're not zomg super hard counter! matchups, but they're still bad matchups. And in case you didn't notice, melee had three characters that had very, very few bad matchups, while brawl only has one character, who has maybe one even matchup (still debatable whether or not that's even at all).
@Brinboy-I just ****in' told you that the MK boards have it listed as 55:45 Metaknight's Favor!. And that the Snake boards have it listed as Metaknight's favor as well (assuming that's what they meant by 5 stars or whatever, since that's harder than Falco)

So no, neither board calls the matchup even.
 

complexity1234

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Fox-Falco
Shiek-Ice Climbers
Marth-Shiek, Captain Falcon.

No bad matchups?

@Brinboy-I just ****in' told you that the MK boards have it listed as 55:45 Metaknight's Favor!. And that the Snake boards have it listed as Metaknight's favor as well (assuming that's what they meant by 5 stars or whatever, since that's harder than DDD)

So no, neither board calls the matchup even.
then those boards are terrrible. Its not like it was written by m2k and azen ROFL ! If you actually u know.. used snake instead of Sonic and seen the pro players and their matchups, you would SEE that its even and also at Snakes advantage vs MK unless the MK can pull off a gimp. (this is ALOT harder if the snake is GOOD)

The fox-falco counter is correct, ONLY at top level play where they can waveshine combo perfectly.

Shiek iceclimbers is even actually, or slight advantage to shiek like m2k said.

Marth has no bad matches at top level play -> m2k and Ken. They combo shiek just as easily as shiek can combo them. Only scrub marths get taken out by shieks that easily.
 

Dark Sonic

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then those boards are terrrible. If you actually u know.. used snake instead of Sonic and seen the pro players and their matchups, you would SEE that its even and also at Snakes advantage vs MK unless the MK can pull off a gimp. (this is ALOT harder if the snake is GOOD)
High level players say that it's in Metaknight's favor as well. And I have seen people play these matchups. It's Snake's advantage when people don't know how to space and use tornado to much (and constantly attack Snake while he's holding grenades). But wait, that means that it's Snake's advantage when the Metaknight player does not know the matchup!
The fox-falco counter is correct, ONLY at top level play where they can waveshine perfectly.
Duh. As if I'd be talking about noobs.
Shiek iceclimbers is even actually, or slight advantage like m2k said.
Slight advantage for Ice Climbers, or even. Either way Shiek will still have to go through a barage of Foxes and, even though it's an even matchup, a simple stage counterpick could win Fox the set.
Marth has no bad matches at top level play-> like m2k and Ken. They combo shiek just as easily as shiek can combo them. Only scrub marths get taken out by shieks that easily.
55:45 Shieks favor. Every Marth player says that this matchup is very, very close to even, but Shiek still has the advantage.
 
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