The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[VulgarHandGestures]

i still can't believe wow was brought up as an example of good balance

seriously, my whole body is numb right now from the shock

 

[Shiri]

Very true about the disagreements over specs.

Okay, enough about WoW. Back to Meta Kn--er, Brawl.

 

[kr3wman]

there is no tier list for wow because of spec differences and because nobody can ever agree

I'm pretty sure that Druid/Warrior are better in 2v2s than say, Dual Enhancement shamans.

@ OrlanduEX

Both statements were separate, sorry for that.

 

[CR4SH]

there is no tier list for wow because of spec differences and because nobody can ever agree

edit Shiri is absolutely correct

There is one fairly agreed upon exception to this.
sl/sl warlock = zomg tier.

But banning is pretty much impossible in wow, because blizz doesn't want to alienate it's subscribers.

 

[St. Viers]

MK is too good.
literally...

which is why he should be banned

 

[da K.I.D.]

see theres only like 4 dudes here and we cant even agree about wow. hence my point.

but anyway
there is now 2-3 people in my area that go to smash tourneys for doubles only, and do not participate in singles for the sole reason of there being to many metaknights

allow me to link you to the results..
http://www.arena51.com/nuke/modules...opic&t=2273&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 fourth post from the bottom
it was incredibly gay
EDIT
note the number of snakes as well

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

MK is too good.
literally...

which is why he should be banned

we have a winner XD

 

[OrlanduEX]

see theres only like 4 dudes here and we cant even agree about wow. hence my point.

but anyway
there is now 2-3 people in my area that go to smash tourneys for doubles only, and do not participate in singles for the sole reason of there being to many metaknights

allow me to link you to the results..
http://www.arena51.com/nuke/modules...opic&t=2273&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 fourth post from the bottom
it was incredibly gay
EDIT
note the number of snakes as well

I've heard it said by some that Brawl is most suitable for 2 v 2 while Melee is most suitable for 1 v 1. Maybe the community at large should look into this more. A heavier focus on 2 v 2 could make Brawl more interesting.

 

[Shiri]

LOL @ those results, I didn't even notice it until I looked back at them again just now.

Son of a b*tch, WTF! LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Meta Knight is awesome! ^_^

 

[WhiteOblv]

fox and falco were heavely played at the end of melee and there was no talk of banning either of them.

At OC3 (big worldwide tourny in socal) i remember at 1 point half of the entire room was fox vs fox, or fox vs falco.

even in my pools i had 5 sheiks a fox and a falco. no 1 complained about any character being banned then.

Do i think MK shud be banned? hell no. Sure he wins some tournys. Big deal. he has cheap crap. well so do DDD, snake, and falco. Even marth does. do we talk about banning them? No

 

[Vulcan55]

Yes MK can be beaten, however the question we should actually be asking is: can he be reasonably beaten?

Yes.
Akuma, on the other hand, could not.
He could not be reasonably beaten unless by a major fluke because he dominated any character that came his way. (Again, I'm talking about high level play, because if I don't say this, someone is going to talk about their sister...)
Metaknight can be reasonably beaten.
He has several neutrals (Or close) And those who don't can still win with enough practice in the match-up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

LOL @ those results, I didn't even notice it until I looked back at them again just now.

Son of a b*tch, WTF! LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Meta Knight is awesome! ^_^

i know right?

that junk is rediculous and theres no reason for it.

if Mk was banned, i would have made money at this tourney...

 

[Vulcan55]

if Mk was banned, i would have made money at this tourney...

No johns.

 

[da K.I.D.]

fox and falco were heavely played at the end of melee and there was no talk of banning either of them.

At OC3 (big worldwide tourny in socal) i remember at 1 point half of the entire room was fox vs fox, or fox vs falco.

even in my pools i had 5 sheiks a fox and a falco. no 1 complained about any character being banned then.

Do i think MK shud be banned? hell no. Sure he wins some tournys. Big deal. he has cheap crap. well so do DDD, snake, and falco. Even marth does. do we talk about banning them? No

we are not banning him for being the best, but for being broken, and you contradict yourself if you say that half the room was fox AND falco (two characters) and your pools was literally 70% shieks

Yes.
Akuma, on the other hand, could not.
He could not be reasonably beaten unless by a major fluke because he dominated any character that came his way. (Again, I'm talking about high level play, because if I don't say this, someone is going to talk about their sister...)
Metaknight can be reasonably beaten.
He has several neutrals (Or close) And those who don't can still win with enough practice in the match-up.

if thats the case i propose this
dont compare MK to akuma
compare him to the boss characters in CvS2
they were banned right?
they were too powerful despite the fact that they took 150% damage from every attack.
Mk dies just as fast as evil ryu, crazy iori, and god rugal in CvS2 but it doesnt matter because hes just too powerful

 

[SothE700k]

Uhm, SamuraiPanda started this thread, and he's a mod.

Also, we've done a bit more than go around in circles. For one thing, it's good for large, game-changing decisions to actually involve, you know, the whole community that will be affected by such decisions?? It's actually healthy for us to be able to have some discussion, at the very least to shed some light on the differing perspectives. Our views here might actually be more diverse than the ones represented in the SBR, so we could present some novel arguments for them to use in their discussion.

On a slightly related note: does the SBR ever open up discussion threads for read access by the larger community? I don't see why it would be damaging for everyone to be able to follow along with the SBR's discussion about the MK ban, although of course we should not be able to post in there lol. Just wondering.

He was probably expecting intelligent discussion from this thread, but i'm no mindreader.

Novel arguments...LMFAO
I wanna know what these..."novel" arguments are in this thread. I'll eat my hat if there are any.

 

[Shiri]

Victory is his destiny, though.

If I ban him in my tournaments, he'll never fulfill his destiny.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@soth
oh god dude, you dont want me to make you eat your own hat.

i can give you very good reasons from both sides dude, if your gonna be like that, its not necessary

 

[Vulcan55]

if thats the case i propose this
dont compare MK to akuma

Good.
He never should have in the first place.

compare him to the boss characters in CvS2
they were banned right?
they were too powerful despite the fact that they took 150% damage from every attack.
Mk dies just as fast as evil ryu, crazy iori, and god rugal in CvS2 but it doesnt matter because hes just too powerful

Why compare him to banned characters? He isn't banned (Yet).

 

[da K.I.D.]

shiri just make sure you have the tourney be4 our venue closes down

 

[pastaboy]

i wunder wut wuld happen to the mk boards if he does get banned.

 

[Shiri]

Easy.

We ban all the MK users from the site.

Duh~

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why compare him to banned characters? He isn't banned (Yet).

because at least in that way, hes very similar, but youre right we shouldnt compare Mk to other games
because he has similar aspects of characters that are banned and also characteristics of character that arent banned

and thats why we shouldnt compare him to other games' fighters

 

[da K.I.D.]

because at least in that way, hes very similar, but youre right we shouldnt compare Mk to other games
because he has similar aspects of characters that are banned and also characteristics of character that arent banned

and thats why we shouldnt compare him to other games' fighters

i think we just got something accomplished!!!

 

[Shiri]

So all joking aside, here's a question for you guys.

Let's all consider the Sheik ban for Melee that was about a month-long period during either 2002 or 2003, I can't remember (old-man-itis). If Meta Knight got the ban stick shoved up his pooper, do you think the community would consider re-admitting him into tournament rosters at perhaps a later date in the future if his strengths and the state of the game were reconsidered while keeping in mind that the community (and I use that term generally) is still very divided on the issue? That is to say, with all the division over this issue, do you think that, if Meta Knight got banned, tournament directors would take the time, if the community called for it, to reconsider his ban? Or would the general populace and tournament directors, having spent so much time on the issue, refuse to look at said issue seriously again?

In either case, how do you think it would affect the game at large and, in particular, how do you think the community would be affected if a ban was put in place and people even tually came to the conclusion that he wasn't ban-worthy after all? Would players be too prideful to take their opinions back? Would Meta Knight receive "fair trial"? Just something that's crossed my mind lately.

 

[Shiri]

Double Tornad--er, double post. My bad.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So all joking aside, here's a question for you guys.

Let's all consider the Sheik ban for Melee that was about a month-long period during either 2002 or 2003, I can't remember (old-man-itis). If Meta Knight got the ban stick shoved up his pooper, do you think the community would consider re-admitting him into tournament rosters at perhaps a later date in the future if his strengths and the state of the game were reconsidered while keeping in mind that the community (and I use that term generally) is still very divided on the issue? That is to say, with all the division over this issue, do you think that, if Meta Knight got banned, tournament directors would take the time, if the community called for it, to reconsider his ban? Or would the general populace and tournament directors, having spent so much time on the issue, refuse to look at said issue seriously again?

In either case, how do you think it would affect the game at large and, in particular, how do you think the community would be affected if a ban was put in place and people even tually came to the conclusion that he wasn't ban-worthy after all? Would players be too prideful to take their opinions back? Would Meta Knight receive "fair trial"? Just something that's crossed my mind lately.

are you saying that shiek, at one point WAS banned, i came into the game around 04 so i didnt know that.

and if something were discovered to make him a normal character. i would definitely reconsider the ban and if he were at some point not broken anymore, i would be man enough to admit my mistake and apologise for my misconception. although i really dont see that happening. all i want is a fun competitive game where every character has a counter, but in some cases a counter where the person at disadvantage could still win. see shiek v marth.
i would never take the stance that ive spent too much time to go back and look at it again.
i think that theres nothing really negative that would come from the ban. chok nater said him self that even though he doesnt like the idea of the ban, he would still go to MK less tourneys. at the same time, we are at the time now, where i personally am quitting goign to tourneys solely because MK is too dominant, too popular, and too good in this game, im doing it because of all 3. but i would never deny a trial or due process

 

[GofG]

So all joking aside, here's a question for you guys.

Let's all consider the Sheik ban for Melee that was about a month-long period during either 2002 or 2003, I can't remember (old-man-itis). If Meta Knight got the ban stick shoved up his pooper, do you think the community would consider re-admitting him into tournament rosters at perhaps a later date in the future if his strengths and the state of the game were reconsidered while keeping in mind that the community (and I use that term generally) is still very divided on the issue? That is to say, with all the division over this issue, do you think that, if Meta Knight got banned, tournament directors would take the time, if the community called for it, to reconsider his ban? Or would the general populace and tournament directors, having spent so much time on the issue, refuse to look at said issue seriously again?

In either case, how do you think it would affect the game at large and, in particular, how do you think the community would be affected if a ban was put in place and people even tually came to the conclusion that he wasn't ban-worthy after all? Would players be too prideful to take their opinions back? Would Meta Knight receive "fair trial"? Just something that's crossed my mind lately.

I think it would be a lot easier to fall back into having a legal MK than it would be banning him in the first place. Banning him would upset so many people, it would be crazy. Instead of being divided into the Melee and Brawl subsections of the community, we would be divided into the Melee, MK Brawl, and No-MK Brawl subsections of the community.

There's no way in hell we're going to ban him anyway, but if we did, we would revert back fairly quickly.

 

[OrlanduEX]

fox and falco were heavely played at the end of melee and there was no talk of banning either of them.

At OC3 (big worldwide tourny in socal) i remember at 1 point half of the entire room was fox vs fox, or fox vs falco.

even in my pools i had 5 sheiks a fox and a falco. no 1 complained about any character being banned then.

Do i think MK shud be banned? hell no. Sure he wins some tournys. Big deal. he has cheap crap. well so do DDD, snake, and falco. Even marth does. do we talk about banning them? No

Wow lol. You talk about Melee like it's dead and gone. It's still being played. I wished the community at large would return to it and leave Brawl behind, but that's sadly not gonna happen.

And MK's dominance in Brawl is not comparable to the dominance of the top tiers in Melee. There is a balance of power between the top four characters (Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Marth) and there are a good handful of characters who can contend with them at the highest level of play including Peach, C. Falcon, Jigglypuff, Samus, and even Ganondorf and Doc.

In Brawl, MK is far and away in a league by himself. The next best guy, Snake is no where near as dominating as MK. At least in Melee, you don't have to pick Fox or Falco to win. If you're devoted, you could win regularly with other guys. In high level Brawl tournament play, maining or seconding MK is practically a must.

 

[Fletch]

I've heard it said by some that Brawl is most suitable for 2 v 2 while Melee is most suitable for 1 v 1. Maybe the community at large should look into this more. A heavier focus on 2 v 2 could make Brawl more interesting.

I think most people still agree that Melee 2v2 is better than Brawl 2v2, but at least Brawl 2v2 isn't close to the level of suck that Brawl 1v1 is.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i still say it wouldn't be such a terrible idea to ban mk if only to send a message to sakurai.

... and then we can convert the boards to be focused on a good fighting game like street fighter 4 :D

 

[OrlanduEX]

I think it would be a lot easier to fall back into having a legal MK than it would be banning him in the first place. Banning him would upset so many people, it would be crazy. Instead of being divided into the Melee and Brawl subsections of the community, we would be divided into the Melee, MK Brawl, and No-MK Brawl subsections of the community.

There's no way in hell we're going to ban him anyway, but if we did, we would revert back fairly quickly.

Somehow I doubt that the community at large would be greatly divided over a ban on MK. A handful of MK fanboys and hard@$$ all-Brawl proponents would complain of course, but as the diversity among tourney viable characters generally increased, the majority of posters here would see the benefit of the ban I think.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think most people still agree that Melee 2v2 is better than Brawl 2v2, but at least Brawl 2v2 isn't close to the level of suck that Brawl 1v1 is.

i actually like doubles more in brawl

but than again i like singles more in brawl as long as MK and snake arent around
but either way melee doubles was just 2 1-on-1s on the opposite sides of the stage

 

[salaboB]

I'm now reduced to waiting for a debater who can tell the difference between "People who have already quit will return" and "We won't have more people quit (Some of whom won't return)".

They're not the same point.

 

[AlAxe]

Somehow I doubt that the community at large would be greatly divided over a ban on MK. A handful of MK fanboys and hard@$$ all-Brawl proponents would complain of course, but as the diversity among tourney viable characters generally increased, the majority of posters here would see the benefit of the ban I think.

I agree. Sure there'd be a few butthurt MK lovers but the large majority of competitive tournament players would find a MK less competitive scene much more enjoyable.

 

[Crow!]

I'm not going to pretend that I know this game's highest levels well enough to make judgements of my own. However, as someone who lurks around here quite a bit, every significant fact I've read seems to suggest that Brawl has a lot to gain and precious little to lose by dropping MK.

 

[Conway]

I recently was browsing the “Tournament Listing” thread when I saw a few tourneys are banning Meta Knight. I read this and was mildly shocked. People have been complaining about MK since the launch of this game. And let’s face it, MK is imbalanced in one way or other. He is significantly better than every other character in the cast of SSBB. Does this mean he is unbeatable? No. He can still be defeated, but it is much harder to beat a MK player, than any other player out there. I think banning MK is a fine move. It can go over well, character bans have been implemented before (Akuma in ST) and it has worked out fine.

The problem with banning a character arouses the question of “Should other things be banned?” Such as: Chain grabs, infinite stalls, ect.

Where I do agree that MK is imbalanced, if you remove him from the game, where do you stop removing aspects from the game that you consider broken? If you ban something as important to a game as a character, what’s to stop people from outlawing small glitches? When will DDD/Falco’s chain throw and Snake’s slide cancel become banned?

I think banning MK is fine, but we as a community need to be careful. If we can ban an entire character that can open the flood gates to many other problems and ruin the Brawl scene as we know it.
Overall I like this ban and think it will have a positive effect on the community.

MK mains start finding a new character, I think this ban is going to stay for good. For better or for worse.

I believe Crow said it best, "We have little to lose and a lot to gain by this ban." Very, very true.

Comments please.

: )

 

[AlAxe]

I'm not going to pretend that I know this game's highest levels well enough to make judgements of my own. However, as someone who lurks around here quite a bit, every significant fact I've read seems to suggest that Brawl has a lot to gain and precious little to lose by dropping MK.

With a MK ban we will lose:
1. MK
2. A few MK fanboys but no serious competitive players
3. Having to main or second MK to stand a serious chance at winning a legit tournament
4. MK dominated tournament results

With a MK ban we will gain:
1. Greater character diversity at tournaments, especially in the top spots
2. Advancement of the Brawl metagame for every matchup not involving MK
3. A much more balanced and fun game that fosters a competitive community

Brawl w/o MK>Brawl w/MK

 

[cheetacuz007]

there is nothing that i despise more than playing a good MK
but BANNING him sounds like a ***** move to me
just cuz hes top on the tier list and people get ***** by him isnt argument enough
next it will be "OMFG DEDDEEZ NANNERZ MAKE ME TRIP HOW BROKN"
playing against an MK makes me work harder and become a better player
if he was godly enough to be banned then everyone would play as him
anybody who says MK should be banned might as well grow a tail and fur cuz there a pussycat
this comes from a snake mainer

PS: besides MK users lives are hard enough....they have no friends
PPS: sorry samurai panda but you really shouldnt have made this thread

 

[AlAxe]

I recently was browsing the “Tournament Listing” thread when I saw a few tourneys are banning Meta Knight. I read this and was mildly shocked. People have been complaining about MK since the launch of this game. And let’s face it, MK is imbalanced in one way or other. He is significantly better than every other character in the cast of SSBB. Does this mean he is unbeatable? No. He can still be defeated, but it is much harder to beat a MK player, than any other player out there. I think banning MK is a fine move. It can go over well, character bans have been implemented before (Akuma in ST) and it has worked out fine.

The problem with banning a character arouses the question of “Should other things be banned?” Such as: Chain grabs, infinite stalls, ect.

Where I do agree that MK is imbalanced, if you remove him from the game, where do you stop removing aspects from the game that you consider broken? If you ban something as important to a game as a character, what’s to stop people from outlawing small glitches? When will DDD/Falco’s chain throw and Snake’s slide cancel become banned?

I think banning MK is fine, but we as a community need to be careful. If we can ban an entire character that can open the flood gates to many other problems and ruin the Brawl scene as we know it.
Overall I like this ban and think it will have a positive effect on the community.

MK mains start finding a new character, I think this ban is going to stay for good. For better or for worse.

I believe Crow said it best, "We have little to lose and a lot to gain by this ban." Very, very true.

Comments please.

: )

You bring up a good point. The difference though between MK and other tactics, such as chain grabs, infinites, and glitches, is that MK completely imbalances the game, while the other things make the game more interesting and arguably more balanced.

 

[Foxy]

With a MK ban we will lose:
1. MK
2. A few MK fanboys but no serious competitive players
3. Having to main or second MK to stand a serious chance at winning a legit tournament
4. MK dominated tournament results

With a MK ban we will gain:
1. Greater character diversity at tournaments, especially in the top spots
2. Advancement of the Brawl metagame for every matchup not involving MK
3. A much more balanced and fun game that fosters a competitive community

Brawl w/o MK>Brawl w/MK

This is absolutely right. Whether this means that a ban is correct is still disputed but this is honestly a great list. Thank you.