The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Zankoku]

lol, I can count the number of Meta Knight players in the Midwest on one hand.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

i agree with dojo

 

[Snakeee]

Snakeee, I'm confused. Link to videos of you beating MKs with ZSS please :D.

I don't have any unfortunately, but people are always baffled when I say that I have no problem at all against Meta. Hmm, I believe I have a few decent ones saved on my Wii if someone would be generous enough to put them up for me. Also, I know Bum has my first game against Inui at my last tourney on his, but I don't think Inui would want that one up lol

This is the kind of competitive attitude everybody should have going into this. Props to you Snakeee. <3

It sure is. Thanks.

 

[Zankoku]

I think you should put it up anyway, Snakeee. Even Inui was the first to admitting getting 3-stocked by your ZSS in tourney. ^_^

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Right, because only the things that were in Melee could possibly be in Brawl.
Nothing new could EVER be found, right?
Plus don't just make up random data. (60%, 75%)
It doesn't mean anything, and you could completely wrong, too.

Your right we could just have well discovered 100% of all ATs.


Just an FYI no one is saying MK is unbeatable I don't know why the anti-ban keep using it as an argument.

 

[Dojo]

Because if he is beatable, then he shouldn't be banned.

 

[Ryan-K]

god why does everyone care so much about techniques this, techniques that, techniques don't make a ****ing game.

edit: technically fox on hryule in melee is beatable, money match?

also lol at mk being beat by pika, you cannot be serious. mk is way faster in attack speed and kills and edgeguard easier, and mk has way more range than him except for pikas dsmash

 

[S.B.Soldier]

Nobody was banned in Melee, so Nobody therefore should be banned in Brawl. Fox was insane in Melee, but that didn't stop people from using Ice Climbers or Link at a professional level. Therefore, why would anyone make Brawl a different scene? Are people the lazy, to just delete a character that Nintendo knowingly installed into this roster because its deemed "too hard"... I NEVER took the easy way out, I lost at tournaments in Melee... could I have chosen easier characters... sure, but where is the satisfaction?

 

[GofG]

S.B.Soldier, the only similarities between Melee and Brawl are that they have some characters similar between them and that their engines were designed by the same staff of programmers.

Please don't compare them the way you are doing.

Also, Fox ≠ MK. They are different games.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Nobody was banned in Melee, so Nobody therefore should be banned in Brawl. Fox was insane in Melee, but that didn't stop people from using Ice Climbers or Link at a professional level. Therefore, why would anyone make Brawl a different scene? Are people the lazy, to just delete a character that Nintendo knowingly installed into this roster because its deemed "too hard"... I NEVER took the easy way out, I lost at tournaments in Melee... could I have chosen easier characters... sure, but where is the satisfaction?

Did you really just compare brawl to melee?

Edit: DARN YOU GofG!!!

 

[GofG]

Magikarp is not a place, Tim. It is a pokemon.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

they are relatively similar. when it comes to a number of aspects they differ? so whats the big deal this is strictly an OPINIONATED THREAD... so why is my opinion magically wrong... It's not like I didn't complete 100% of all 3 platforms for smash, it's not like I haven't been to a tournament before... I have as much right to express my opinion as the next man in line...

 

[GofG]

You cannot compare the dominance of Fox to the dominance of Metaknight. Fox has several bad matchups. DK ***** him, Marth does well against him, Sheik does well, Captain Falcon does well...

He just happens to be the best. That's all.

 

[Ryan-K]

Nobody was banned in Melee, so Nobody therefore should be banned in Brawl. Fox was insane in Melee, but that didn't stop people from using Ice Climbers or Link at a professional level. Therefore, why would anyone make Brawl a different scene? Are people the lazy, to just delete a character that Nintendo knowingly installed into this roster because its deemed "too hard"... I NEVER took the easy way out, I lost at tournaments in Melee... could I have chosen easier characters... sure, but where is the satisfaction?

melee was deeper and gave you more options.

if a fox ****s up you can punish him.

if mk ****s up LOL who cares unless he's at killing percent but he has much less lag than fox on his moves (who still didn't have alot) and even then if you grab him at low percent noone except like falco can do anything, plus you cant just run up to him and do a smash attack unless its usmash since you have to shield first.

the physics of the game combined with the general stupidity of mk make that whole analogy worthless

Edit LOLOLL

DK doesnt beat fox AT ALL, he can combo him if he ****s up thats it

cf gets beat by fox solidly, fox can gimp him really easily and can't compete with his priority and has to work hard for grabs and tech chases

fox barely beats sheik

fox v marth is even until fox counterpicks poke floats or corneria or something then it's a wrap.

most people think falco beats or goes even with fox, but generally it's way easier to fight fox than mk because you can make fox make an error and punish him

the difference? fox is dominant but way more character are competitive despite his existance.

 

[Foxy]

...I'm not trying to start an argument... But in all honesty the point of a game is to enjoy the competition... I was comparing the dominance of fox to that of metaknight... how everyone I knew would I3itch and moan because of wavedashing and AT's... so may I ask... whats the difference of these two arguments if they are solely based on opinion?

Something solely based on opinion is not an argument.

"I THINK SPACE DOES NOT EXIST OR IN FACT SMELLS LIKE PURPLE FLOWER-CANDIES"

I may believe that but my lack of factual support kind of prevents it from becoming a real argument.

 

[SonicX580]

I think that metaknight shouldn't be banned because I defeat him all of the time using sonic no items and his cpu level was 9 but before you hit me with negative comments can I suggest two things? number 1 replace mk with another character in the roster, number 2 give mk a handicap that's all I got to say okay bye.

 

[AgentJGV]

also lol at mk being beat by pika, you cannot be serious. mk is way faster in attack speed and kills and edgeguard easier, and mk has way more range than him except for pikas dsmash

I'm being dead serious. Pika's attack speed is almost the same as MKs with just a little more lag afterwords. His attacks are more powerful. And, in regards to edgegaurding, it only works on pikachu if he's below the stage and in my experience that rarely happens.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

Plus, Pikachu's thundr pwns all... you can use his thundershock to stun metakight... use it like marios fireballs and float back, like a fade away... pikachu has enough speed to punish metaknight if you can efficiently use his thundershock. just never get caught in the tornado. also his thunder (down b) is good to stage guard and send metaknight up... pikachus up a smash is BROKEN.

 

[Ryan-K]

ok so then it's not the same if he's lagging.

pika's smashes aren't that much much stronger than mk's except for mk's usmash

mk's fsmash is stronger than pika's

mk's dsmash is way better than pika's easy-as-hell-to-DI-out-of dsmash

mk outranges pika by like a mile and pika can hardly touch him and mk is way faster, are you seriously trying to compare pika to mk? LOL

pika can't edgeguard mk

mk is so fast something that can be cancelled like jolt doesn't matter especially since it has landing lag unlike lasers.

 

[GofG]

I think that metaknight shouldn't be banned because I defeat him all of the time using sonic no items and his cpu level was 9 but before you hit me with negative comments can I suggest two things? number 1 replace mk with another character in the roster, number 2 give mk a handicap that's all I got to say okay bye.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The Pokemon community has like 20 Pokemon banned at this point. 20 god tier characters. Ubers might as well be the competitive standard, because with 20 god tier Pokemon and Overused that are still viable, you can have a diverse metagame anyway.

Considering there's 400+ pokemon, that's a small percentage.

Regardless, it IS the competative standard, or more accurately, one of them.


Each pokemon is classified based on it's ability in the overall metagame.

There is:

Ubers



Overused
Boarderline



Moderately-used



Under-used



Never-used


Each grouping of pokemon tiers (the ones not set apart by newlines) has their own metagame. Any pokemon that is lower then that tier can be used in a battle, but nothing higher (and they don't show up except in very rare cases).

Really, there is nothing banned per say, the tiers just compete in seperate divisions.


Overused is the most played enviroment, simply because it's got the most diverse metagame, however competition in every other division is quite common. Ubers tend to be not played as much because it's such a limited metagame.

Because if he is beatable, then he shouldn't be banned.

... No.

Akuma is technically beatable, does that mean we don't ban him?

It's not a question of WHETHER something is beatable, but instead whether something is REASONABLY beatable.

 

[Dojo]

Stop comparing him to other games. It's the same argument for both sides about beatability compared to characters in other fighters.

He's been beaten reasonably at different levels of competitive play.

 

[AgentJGV]

ok so then it's not the same if he's lagging.

pika's smashes aren't that much much stronger than mk's except for mk's usmash

mk's fsmash is stronger than pika's

mk's dsmash is way better than pika's easy-as-hell-to-DI-out-of dsmash

mk outranges pika by like a mile and pika can hardly touch him and mk is way faster, are you seriously trying to compare pika to mk? LOL

pika can't edgeguard mk

mk is so fast something that can be cancelled like jolt doesn't matter especially since it has landing lag unlike lasers.

1. yes they are Pika gets 20-28% from F Smash. MK gets 14%. D Smash is a little bit more. Up smash for Pika is 13-18%. MK is 3,2,4 %.

2. See above.

3. its a better killing move but Pika can trap Meta knight at edges with it.

4. in reality MK only outranges Pika by a little bit.

5. Yes he can. Thunder and jolt are amazing for this.

6. I'll give you this i guess.

 

[Zankoku]

No reasonably competent player will ever get KO'd by a Pikachu dsmash.

 

[AgentJGV]

No reasonably competent player will ever get KO'd by a Pikachu dsmash.

I wasnt saying it could kill but it gives you some space, causes a little bit of damage, and sucks them in at the edge.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Stop comparing him to other games. It's the same argument for both sides about beatability compared to characters in other fighters.

He's been beaten reasonably at different levels of competitive play.

Rules of banning should be consistent across at least fighting games, so it is comparable. Brawl is not such a special case that it needs a totally independant criteria.

It's not even about whether or not he should be banned at this point, I've stated many times before that unless something drastic changes, the barest minimium for a ban is a year and a half.

It's simply the fact that the criteria you put forth for banning is laughable. Any character can be beaten, no matter how utterly broken the character is. Heck, even if the character has a "win" button.

It's just in many cases, not reasonable to assume they'll be beaten.

 

[Ryan-K]

LOL

who gives a **** about percentages.

it's about killing.

you don't lose stocks from percents, you lose them from DYING.

who cares about getting sucked to the edge, mk can make it back from almost anywhere and he can punish you for doing so

thudner only works if hes above, jolt only if hes at an angle, he snaps to the edge from so far with his up b it doesnt matter, not to mention his 5 jumps and his b moves

 

[GofG]

Superryan, percentages matter as they are the only way to kill metaknight (being that he is ungimpable).

 

[AgentJGV]

LOL

who gives a **** about percentages.

it's about killing.

you basically said that all you need are killing moves. So why isnt every playing Ike then?

 

[_Phloat_]

Now that MKs have learned to play Pipes, what would you guys say is his worst stage, even if there are none that give him a disadvantage?

 

[Ryan-K]

ok, but mk still has better killing moves and can match pika in percent just because his rushdown is so strong so even if you aren't thinking in simple terms of smash attacks like this dumb argument mk still wins hands down.

stay classy agentjgv, just take random statements out of context and make yourself look dumb, don't let a little thing like facts stand in the way of your ignorant ranting *******

ike can't always land all his kill moves and gets killed early

mk is almost untouchable because of his speed mobility and he kills really well.

kill moves do matter, percent isn't that relevant unless it's something like ddd chaingrab which does like 30% across battlefield for free.

stop being dumb ffs. this is why noone takes the brawl community seriously

 

[GofG]

Superryan, I agree with what you are saying, but I think you would be easier to understand if you included more punctuation in your sentences. For instance, as it stands, your previous post is a run-on sentence with no commas except in the very beginning. It also has no capitalization whatsoever.

 

[Ryan-K]

so what you're saying is

despite the fact that my sentences make perfect sense, because of a few gramatical errors, he can't understand them?

that's his fault for lacking basic reading comprehension, it's not like i'm talking aim language or some ****.

if he can't read because there is a lack of capitalization, then he probably shouldn't be on the internet.

i split my posts up like this because it's easier to understand, I'm not going out of my way just so some random guy can read something that's already perfectly understandable.

 

[AgentJGV]

ok, but mk still has better killing moves and can match pika in percent just because his rushdown is so strong so even if you aren't thinking in simple terms of smash attacks like this dumb argument mk still wins hands down.

stay classy agentdgv, just take random statements out of context and make yourself look dumb, don't let a little thing like facts stand in the way of your ignorant ranting *******

ike can't always land all his kill moves and gets killed early

mk is almost untouchable because of his speed mobility and he kills really well.

kill moves do matter, percent isn't that relevant unless it's something like ddd chaingrab which does like 30% across battlefield for free.

stop being dumb ffs. this is why noone takes the brawl community seriously

I probably should have been more specific too. When i was refering to Pika as a counter I was say he was the closest one that has a reasonable chance against MK. Do you agree there?

 

[Dojo]

Rules of banning should be consistent across at least fighting games, so it is comparable. Brawl is not such a special case that it needs a totally independant criteria.

It's not even about whether or not he should be banned at this point, I've stated many times before that unless something drastic changes, the barest minimium for a ban is a year and a half.

It's simply the fact that the criteria you put forth for banning is laughable. Any character can be beaten, no matter how utterly broken the character is. Heck, even if the character has a "win" button.

It's just in many cases, not reasonable to assume they'll be beaten.

Sorry that I was silly enough to assume that intelligent players would be able to realize that my criteria for a banning call would be more than being beaten.

It's this case in many games if you HAVE to compare.
How many times would you see a low tier beating a top tier in another game.
Of course it was possible, but rare.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

Lol Pokemon Comparison

 

[The Real Inferno]

Because if he is beatable, then he shouldn't be banned.

Not to argue against you, but I can't stand to let an obvious point for either side go unnoticed. To make the ever over popular Street Fighter reference: Akuma was actually beatable by about 3 characters in the game, it was just a hard as hell matchup (which as in Dojo's own words Metaknight is "tough as hell" I believe is how he put it in that "epic" post Brinboy keeps spamming). Now he was still banned obviously. That's some food for thought. And before anybody goes "Wah Sirlin didn't say that." First of all, Sirlin is not the be all end all of all internet arguments about fighting games and I'm tired of people leaning on him like a crutch instead of forming their own logic. Second of all, he actually did mention in one of his articles that Akuma was beatable, it was just really hard for those few characters that could beat him.

On the other hand Metaknight doesn't beast anyone -that- bad.

Spoiler

this topic is now about my little ponies

 

[Dojo]

Not to argue against you, but I can't stand to let an obvious point for either side go unnoticed. To make the ever over popular Street Fighter reference: Akuma was actually beatable by about 3 characters in the game, it was just a hard as hell matchup (which as in Dojo's own words Metaknight is "tough as hell" I believe is how he put it in that "epic" post Brinboy keeps spamming). Now he was still banned obviously. That's some food for thought. And before anybody goes "Wah Sirlin didn't say that." First of all, Sirlin is not the be all end all of all internet arguments about fighting games and I'm tired of people leaning on him like a crutch instead of forming their own logic. Second of all, he actually did mention in one of his articles that Akuma was beatable, it was just really hard for those few characters that could beat him.

On the other hand Metaknight doesn't beast anyone -that- bad.

Spoiler

this topic is now about my little ponies

Sorry that I was silly enough to assume that intelligent players would be able to realize that my criteria for a banning call would be more than being beaten.

It's this case in many games if you HAVE to compare.
How many times would you see a low tier beating a top tier in another game.
Of course it was possible, but rare.

BAM!!

10uglyponies.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I NEVER took the easy way out, I lost at tournaments in Melee... could I have chosen easier characters... sure, but where is the satisfaction?

lol the satisfaction is in the money, the money that you dont get cus you dont win the tourneys

I think that metaknight shouldn't be banned because I defeat him all of the time using sonic no items and his cpu level was 9 but before you hit me with negative comments can I suggest two things? number 1 replace mk with another character in the roster, number 2 give mk a handicap that's all I got to say okay bye.

playing against cpus means nothing. and if you admit that MK needs a handicap , than he should just be eliminated all together.

Now that MKs have learned to play Pipes, what would you guys say is his worst stage, even if there are none that give him a disadvantage?

green greens low cceilings and close sides and it easy to camp with projectiles. but at the same time he can still jab infinite you on the blocks, see what we mean about no bad stages?

Sorry that I was silly enough to assume that intelligent players would be able to realize that my criteria for a banning call would be more than being beaten.
It's this case in many games if you HAVE to compare.
How many times would you see a low tier beating a top tier in another game.
Of course it was possible, but rare.

unless the character in question is completely invincible and cant be damaged, and cant be knocked of the stage, he can be beaten, therefore that is not a reasonble criteria for a ban.
also, tiers in guilty gear are almost meaningless, because every character in that game *****, and ive seen chipps light up testaments like it was their job.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

my little ponies should be banned they are top tier..
- they make little children flock to tournaments
- their color scheme allows them to blend in with the color changing background on Final D.
- they have thousands of $$ of marketing on their side
- but they cannot beat metaknight apparently
- their final smash leaves you questioning your sexuality