The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[clowsui]

er sorry wrong thread >_>;

 

[clowsui]

i Lol'd

Really.

Edit: Upon Second Glance, That Is Even More Ridiculous Than I First Thought.

First Of All, Sonic Has Had A Few High Placements Of His Own, So You Highlighting One Guy Who Placed Second In A Local Tourney Literally Means Nothing, As Far As Proving That Zss Isn't Bad.

Second Of All, There Were At Least Two Dededes In That Tournament, And A Donkey Kong Placed First? And We're Supposed To Take These Results As Some Sort Of Evidence That Not Only Is Zss A Good Character, But Also That Mk Isn't As Overpowered As Everyone Thinks? Pff. Pretty Awesome Scene You Guys Have Up There. Do You Play With Items On Too?

lol Arby N the Chief = KDJ

Hmmm I Dunno Guys Maybe Bum Didn't Fight Those Dededes.

Nah East Coast Just Sucks.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

I completely agree with Mariofanpm12

 

[Snakeee]

Wow, I was going to say something about this guy attacking the Tri-state area's credibility, but Ankoku and Ryan K said it all (and thanks for the compliment Ryan).

After playing people all over the EC including M2K, Azen, Chu Dat, etc. Bum has to be at least be top three on the EC. Also, I think you're assuming that the infinite on DK with DDD is allowed, which it is not over here. He's only allowed to do his normal chain grab.

EDIT: Actually,top 3 on EC have to be M2K, Azen, and Bum period.

 

[Overswarm]

as Yoshi can CG him across stages into a fair spike, and almost every other character taller than him as some combo into a smash attack.

None of this is true, just FYI.

 

[Niko_K]

I like Snakee and Overswarm. They are pretty cool guys.

I have a feeling theres going to be an MK ban here in Canada soon. We're more worried that if we follow through and the US continues to have MK, theyre at a huge advantage in knowledge.

 

[Overswarm]

If Canada and Texas both ban MK in a bunch fo tournaments, the US will be attacked from the north and south!

 

[Vulcan55]

People continue to say that the Brawl Metagame is still young and that the Melee one has about 7+ years behind it. They say that with time, we'll find new secrets and techs with characters that may make fighting MK easier.

I must say I disagree. When Melee first came out, we had no real clue as to what ATs were, and we still hadn't even found out about small tricks like Fast Falling and Short Hops nor had we really implemented them. Sweetspots and Edge Guarding, too. So naturally it'd take more time to discovery the true secrets of Melee.

However, with Brawl, it kind of had a jumpstart on Melee. We took all of our Melee knowledge(7+ years) and applied it Brawl (in a few months). This pretty much told us about 60% of Brawl's techs right there. The rest was pretty much just character-specific ATs that couldn't really help against MK or even anyone for that matter. And even if we do manage to discover some ground-breaking tech like Comboing, Wave-Dashing or L-Canceling, MK will be able to do them, too, so it really won't matter.

We've even come out with a Tier List in just about 7 months , whereas in Melee it took about a year. It shows that we've already most likely drained about 75% of Brawl's tech skill out, and the remaining 25% will most likely just be small, character specific ATs.

Right, because only the things that were in Melee could possibly be in Brawl.
Nothing new could EVER be found, right?
Plus don't just make up random data. (60%, 75%)
It doesn't mean anything, and you could completely wrong, too.

 

[S.B.Soldier]

theres an infinte on dk? with ddd... wow i learn something new everyday

 

[~ Gheb ~]

theres an infinte on dk? with ddd... wow i learn something new everyday

lawl

are living behind teh moon???

 

[Julz]

theres an infinte on dk? with ddd... wow i learn something new everyday

DK isn't the only one...

 

[Vulcan55]

Edit: I missed this the first time around. And I hate to bring politics in and am really not interested in getting into a debate on it because this is an example about opinions, so...George Bush was elected for a second term because he was generally accepted. Do you think that general acceptance of an idea always means it's good?

At least in my opinion, if a rule/rule set among a fighting game community is debated upon and still has much diverse opinions that are as close as that election, then it should still be up for debate.
In an election, there is a set time limit and by that date, the candidate with the most votes wins regardless of margin. (Margin !=0, obviously)
Nevertheless, I believe it was the right thing to do at the time (And so did over 50% of voting Americans) and assuming I would have thought the other way is very ignorant, don't you think?
Back to the point.
Let's say Brawl was the first game in it's kind, and we had no idea what the official rules should be.
If the debate is really close, I would say it is not generally accepted, because it was not accepted by most of the general public, only half of it.
I also think that Bush's re-election was not generally accepted, but accepted enough so that, by law, he wins.
There aren't laws when it comes to rule-making for games.

 

[AgentJGV]

Back on topic, What are your guys' opinions of possible counters to MK. Right now the biggest one is Pikachu. I did some research and Pikachu has the same dash speed, does more damage but attacks are very close to the speed of meta-knight, and Pika has range. The only disadvantage that pika has is that MK is slightly faster in attack and has a little more priority. What do you guys think?

 

[S.B.Soldier]

no I just never took the time to focus on DDD, I love donkey kong, but I have never played an experienced DDD with my DK so how would I know?... either way this seems impertinent to the topic so I will move on...

Metaknight topic is getting exhausted...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Nevertheless, I believe it was the right thing to do at the time (And so did over 50% of voting Americans) and assuming I would have thought the other way is very ignorant, don't you think?

Al Gore won the popular vote didn't he? So actually most (and by most I mean 50%) did not think it was the right thing to do at the time.

 

[infomon]

Right, because only the things that were in Melee could possibly be in Brawl.
Nothing new could EVER be found, right?
Plus don't just make up random data. (60%, 75%)
It doesn't mean anything, and you could completely wrong, too.

It's possible that there are some crazy game-changing ATs for Melee that haven't been discovered yet. It's technically possible, but extremely unlikely. Brawl is a simpler game; there's less possibility for unknown game-changing mechanics to be discovered. Let's be reasonable. It's unlikely that any new crazy stuff will be discovered; subtle character traits and strategy development, that's it.

Although, strategy development can go a long way to influencing our understanding of matchups, etc. Tournament results IMO do not currently demonstrate MK being ahead of the cast by a margin significant enough to merit a ban. I suspect that as time goes on, we'll see more MK domination, but that's just speculation. Uhm, I guess I agree Vulcan that it's much too early for a ban, but it's because the metagame hasn't caught up, not because I expect new discoveries about Brawl to significantly change the way we play.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It brings in more people than all the others. Go ahead and take a poll of how many people play smash for fun and how many play for superstition.

I think you sort of missed the point on that, I was refering specifically to the brand of fun you claim MK removes.

Again, people find enjoyment in this game for drastically different reasons, why do you claim your reason is so superior?

adumbrodeus: I disagree. I concur with what Arturito says about the whole "scrubs attending" factor, but also think about this: Meta Knight is the best character. No one denies this. If there's nothing but a group of pros left, you'll see those who haven't converted, convert. What's the point of getting good with a character you KNOW is worse if your sole goal is to win money? The tournament results will turn from MOSTLY MK to ALL MK. Even consider what MLG's are going to look like. What will be the point of using anyone who is on a whole different level than the ever-great MK with so much money on the line?

Again, gaining money is not the only goal.

Competative gaming should make no distinctions between WHY people play to win beyond encouragement of the mindset. What is fun for different people, different thing. Do you think everyone plays for fun?

What makes your criteria so superior?

In the long term, I agree, in the future, when the metagame is mature if MK doesn't change in relation to the rest of the cast, he's ban-worthy. But your reasoning is poor.

Sonic, do you know how much **** Smogon has gotten for premature banning? They banned wobb ffs, and he is mediocre at best in competitive Pokemon play.

LOL, best result with him is that both characters get killed if played with reasonable competence.

wobbuffet is almost as broken as Akuma.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wobby is banned b/c Wobby ditto = endless stall battle

 

[Turbo Ether]

The Pokemon community has like 20 Pokemon banned at this point. 20 god tier characters. Ubers might as well be the competitive standard, because with 20 god tier Pokemon and Overused that are still viable, you can have a diverse metagame anyway.

 

[mariofanpm12]

This is all just back and forth insanity. Speak your opinion and you get flamed or contradicted by somebody else, who in turn gets their opinion contradicted and is flamed, then again. This is a meaningless cycle that is getting exhausted.

Maybe this would be easier if there were just a poll or something to choose with. If at least 60% of the community said yes, then MK could be banned. If not, then he'd stay. If there were an option that said "I'm not really sure" or something along those lines and enough people voted on that option, then we could discuss further.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't ask the community. 90% are newbs

 

[mariofanpm12]

Don't ask the community. 90% are newbs

*Sighs* Good point...

 

[XienZo]

Wobby is banned b/c Wobby ditto = endless stall battle

They fixed that in the newest generation, but yeah, thats why he was originally banned in the 3rd gen.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

They fixed that in the newest generation, but yeah, thats why he was originally banned in the 3rd gen.

Really? I haven't played D/P yet, so I didn't know that

 

[AgentJGV]

Don't ask the community. 90% are newbs

So who are we too ask then? Random people?

 

[mariofanpm12]

Now we're over here talking about Pokemon!

Now this thread is getting to be just plain fail.

 

[Vulcan55]

Al Gore won the popular vote didn't he? So actually most (and by most I mean 50%) did not think it was the right thing to do at the time.

Re-election.
This was 2004, vs Kerry.
Bush won the popular vote.

 

[AgentJGV]

Now we're over here talking about Pokemon!

Now this thread is getting to be just plain fail.

I think the point of this thread was to just stop all the spam rather than actually discuss anything. But we still try so...oh well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What else is there left to say about the MK ban? Those who want him banned, have no proof for their claims and are too stubborn to change their minds...

 

[Overswarm]

What else is there left to say about the MK ban? Those who want him banned, have no proof for their claims and are too stubborn to change their minds...

I think the ever escalating number of MK mains, tournament wins, top 3 and top 8 tournament placings, and number of people switching to MK are pretty telling signs.

Hell, I invented ROB and I switched. There aren't any ROBs left.

 

[AgentJGV]

Meta-knight is the easy answer. as of now the only counters to Meta-kinght are...MK himself (well for me pikachu too but no one ever listens to me)

 

[S.B.Soldier]

I'm Listening... Please continue your though... explain the pikachu thing

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think the ever escalating number of MK mains, tournament wins, top 3 and top 8 tournament placings, and number of people switching to MK are pretty telling signs.

Hell, I invented ROB and I switched. There aren't any ROBs left.

These are sings but not actual proof...

...

Oh, man...

...

I just sound like Yuna :/

 

[S.B.Soldier]

there is a rob left... kdj

 

[Vulcan55]

I think the ever escalating number of MK mains, tournament wins, top 3 and top 8 tournament placings, and number of people switching to MK are pretty telling signs.

Hell, I invented ROB and I switched. There aren't any ROBs left.

But that's not actually proof, just opinion.
In my opinion, that is not enough to warrant a ban.

 

[Snakeee]

Metaknight is my favorite match up with ZSS, and I'll be upset if the time I took to figure out everything she can do against him went to waste . So, I can only imagine how the Metaknight players, especially the innovative ones, will feel if they can no longer use him.

He's definitely not an unbeatable character, and I'm sure there's a lot people can figure out with each character to figure out at least SOMETHING to assist them in the match up. In my case, it seemed ZSS got ridiculously ***** by Metaknight, but now I see the match up as even.

 

[mariofanpm12]

MK doesn't really even need anymore new techs. He already owns most of the cast without them simply due to his lack of lag, quick attacks, high priority, and excellent recovery.

 

[AgentJGV]

I'm Listening... Please continue your though... explain the pikachu thing

I explained in my earlier post. It just seems that Pikachu could have the easiest time with MK right now.

 

[GofG]

Snakeee, I'm confused. Link to videos of you beating MKs with ZSS please :D.

 

[Dojo]

Metaknight is my favorite match up with ZSS, and I'll be upset if the time I took to figure out everything she can do against him went to waste . So, I can only imagine how the Metaknight players, especially the innovative ones, will feel if they can no longer use him.

He's definitely not an unbeatable character, and I'm sure there's a lot people can figure out with each character to figure out at least SOMETHING to assist them in the match up. In my case, it seemed ZSS got ridiculously ***** by Metaknight, but now I see the match up as even.

This is the kind of competitive attitude everybody should have going into this. Props to you Snakeee. <3