The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[M.K]

The majority of people in the Smash Community don't care about characters that are clearly unviable for tournaments. The metagame of this game focuses on characters that are tournament viable, so obviously the SBR is going to stack itself with people that are knowledgeable about the viable characters. Really, if the SBR puts a crap character over another crap character because it doesn't know enough about both crap characters, not enough people are going to complain about it for it to be relevant. If a low-tier main finds this unfair and wants to change this by being part of the SBR, that person better know enough about the current metagame to being relevant discussion to the table, even if their character is talked about rarely if at all.

I agree, and I'd like to add on to the fact that if you truly believe that your character is competition viable, you should be able to prove it through tournament results. I recall you stating that you don't go to tournaments anymore; which is why I ask, how does your opinion matter any higher than any other person longing to be one of the SBR Elite? It doesn't, your words are just that; words without your own personal experiences in the competitive scene to back them up.
Also, you seem to believe that we don't give chances to those characters in the lower tiers when clearly that is not true, as made evident by the recent rise of such characters like Steaky the Well-Done Hedgehog, Animal Slave Laborer from Kanto, and the Mistress of Cross-Dressing from Hyrule. (I'll give you a minute). All of these characters were previously believe to be competition unviable, but in time, and through the efforts of the mains (efforts, not words), these characters rose on the tier list.

 

[Nestec]

I'm dead serious. You are what you play.

Lol, tell that to a Ganon main.

Crimson Viper from Street Fighter 4.

Ooooh, ok, she's pretty hawt then. I heard she sucked though. In SF4, I mean.

and the Mistress of Cross-Dressing from Hyrule. (I'll give you a minute).

lol...I'm having trouble guessing this one...

Luigi??

EDIT: oh, Sheik.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lol, tell that to a Ganon main.

Clai is maaaad manly.

Seriously, why do you think he plays ganon?

 

[Nestec]

Betcha twenty rupees he hasn't kidnapped a princess within the past decade. Until then, he is nowhere near Ganon's level.

 

[M.K]

Clai is maaaad manly.

Seriously, why do you think he plays ganon?

*does not know you this Clai fellow might be, but is willing to participate in the conversation out of boredom*

It could possibly be that he compensates for his girlish figure and snappy bust by playing the character that is bursting at the seams with testosterone and evil juice. ^.^
>.> Please don't hate me.

 

[Nestec]

I wouldn't doubt that possibility, actually.

Jk, Clai, mad luv for ya, dawg.

 

[Clai]

So me wanting to fix a broken metagame and bring a characters true skills in a competitive gamming which her and match ups not only affect her, but how others can handle her so they don't win, lose(and also and to the compatitive game of this game) to her Is a reason not to be in there?

Ok, then lets boot some people out the SBR right now.

The last time I checked, the metagame has been working quite finely. Just because Peach isn't relevant in this metagame, doesn't mean the metagame is broken. Meta-Kirby is right in saying that the characters who rose most on this tier list deserved that rise because of the people who proved their character by winning tournaments with them. You can shout all you want about Peach's matchups, Peach's metagame, etc. etc. but if you're not going to find people who actually use Peach in tournaments, that information is useless.

Let's totally kick out people in the SBR so that people who are completely biased about inviable characters can represent them and feel important. I'll back Ganon, I bet I can beat the socks off the person who's repping him now.

*does not know you this Clai fellow might be, but is willing to participate in the conversation out of boredom*

It could possibly be that he compensates for his girlish figure and snappy bust by playing the character that is bursting at the seams with testosterone and evil juice. ^.^
>.> Please don't hate me.

What... WHAT? What the heck are you talking about with snappy busts? I may not be a sex-crazy, bull-wrestling maniac, but I'm a man, dammit, and anyone who questions it will deal with my fists!

JK, you're legit, Meta-Kirby. Just don't say that about me again.

I wouldn't doubt that possibility, actually.

Jk, Clai, mad luv for ya, dawg.

Adumbrodeus actually saw me in person, so he knows what he's talking about when saying I'm mad manly. I'm not manly just because I play Ganon, I'm manly because I play Ganon in the manliest way possible, and Adumbrodeus can vouch for this. Thank you man, you're mad cool.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adumbrodeus actually saw me in person, so he knows what he's talking about when saying I'm mad manly. I'm not manly just because I play Ganon, I'm manly because I play Ganon in the manliest way possible, and Adumbrodeus can vouch for this. Thank you man, you're mad cool.

Np.

Also, you've kiddnapped some princesses recently, right?

 

[Clai]

Np.

Also, you've kiddnapped some princesses recently, right?

If that was an actual requirement for manliness, then only the nerdiest of nerds immensed in villain fantasy would actually classify as men, lol. I know I can't actually be as manly as Ganondorf, so I do all I can to make Ganon proud while classifying as a man in the real world.

Instead of capturing princesses, I'll just make sure to make my Ganon good enough to defeat them high-level Peachs and Zeldas. That good enough?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then a subsequent lack of placings immediately afterwards because it was 2-3 people putting in work with the character and now what, one?

That would not natter, because the capabilities of the character would have been seen and recognized. afterwards, that high level of play should ake precedence over tournament placings which are only good in establishing the degree of centralizing.


Link's abilities alone surpass that of Captain Falcon, so there is no reason for the tier placement to shift because the character has not changed.


@dark pch, you have to fix your quotes on page 383. You made the quote as DA kid's and not mine.

@nestec: There is no debate between Falcon vs Link. It is not up for debate at all. And I use BOTH characters on a regular basis.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The last time I checked, the metagame has been working quite finely. Just because Peach isn't relevant in this metagame, doesn't mean the metagame is broken. Meta-Kirby is right in saying that the characters who rose most on this tier list deserved that rise because of the people who proved their character by winning tournaments with them. You can shout all you want about Peach's matchups, Peach's metagame, etc. etc. but if you're not going to find people who actually use Peach in tournaments, that information is useless.

Let's totally kick out people in the SBR so that people who are completely biased about inviable characters can represent them and feel important. I'll back Ganon, I bet I can beat the socks off the person who's repping him now.

I was only talking about Peach's meta game, no in general. Hers is broken.

And lets do it, you and me against them. Ganon and Peach? You know how much win that is?
Also I havve an idea. We should have a small crew with you, me, shadowlink and maybe a few more with underratted characters and have banners. Something dealing with us against the SBR for justice of our character. It would be pretty funny. Just need a good and epic name.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Adumbrodeus actually saw me in person, so he knows what he's talking about when saying I'm mad manly. I'm not manly just because I play Ganon, I'm manly because I play Ganon in the manliest way possible, and Adumbrodeus can vouch for this. Thank you man, you're mad cool.

If i remember correctly, I saw you at apex, and you are many than anyone based solely on the fact that you wore a shirt with Baconnaise on it

 

[Kinzer]

Disagreed.

Sheik should be B tier.

Sonic should be Steak tier, but I don't see the false SBR, let alone players, making that happen.

Ness, I say top of D Tier. Lol, d@mn near C though.

PT, Bowser, Zelda, or Ike to E Tier. Don't care who, one of them need to make room for Ness/Mario.

I think few people would refute if we put Zelda lower.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Dude, lol, you're taking the SBR waaaaay too seriously. Hell, you're taking the entire Smash community too seriously.

If the SBR does not fulfill your desires, YOU fill in what they're missing. You don't need to be in the SBR to have your opinion listened to. If Peach is being underrated because no one in the SBR is taking her seriously, TOO BAD. Don't go around complaining about it and saying that the SBR needs you, because you're wasting your time.

Seriously, you act like the SBR is some kind of federal legion.

I thought I should bring that quote back up again, that's priceless .

At Shadowlink > Of course there's a debate between those two. It's clearly obvious that Link is provided with an arsenal of projectiles which lead to many options and all Captain Falcon has are his jab lock, side B and blank aerials. Link actually so-happens to have a spacing game with Z-air and a better jab lock with decent followups. The only thing that's holding him back is his recovery but comparing the two....Link is a far more formidable character who can stand up against characters higher than him that Captain Falcon cannot.

 

[Frown]

Sonic should be Steak tier

I can't believe this meme hasn't died yet...

 

[Kinzer]

Actually, it has died.

But I'm pretty much the only one keeping this alive... all the hype's gone to the Xat/just kind of got old for everybody else.

No need to fear.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think few people would refute if we put Zelda lower.

I'd argue she's about right where she is now. I could see her being lower within D Tier, but not in E Tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ooooh, ok, she's pretty hawt then. I heard she sucked though. In SF4, I mean.

Nah, she's mid tier. She's pretty much the most difficult character worth using. Like comparable to Toon Link or Pit or ZSS. Maybe a little better than them. But flashy as hell. :D

 

[MalcolmM]

Name search raaaaaaape. I was checking to see if someone was gonna give me a ride to this jersey tournament and "BAM!" ran across this hilarious thread.

Lol @ me being in the SBR. I have no interest in arguing with others about this game, especially not about Sonic; that simply abysmal character with a gimmick that doesn't seem to grow old. I don't even post on smashboards anymore unless its a tournament thread. I also have incredibly radical views about some of the characters in this game, such as, but not excluded too, Zelda is the worst character in this game and Samus is 2nd worst.

/Slandering myself

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's nothing wrong with having radical views about the game unless you're a sub-90 hive mind ****** who thinks he or she knows better than everyone else because you agree with some player who is better than you.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What was the major factor in the change of Sonic? Plus 8 spots.

There's nothing wrong with having radical views about the game unless you're a sub-90 hive mind ****** who thinks he or she knows better than everyone else because you agree with some player who is better than you.

In the issue of radical views, one typically acknowledges that it exists and proceeds to ignore it.

 

[Nestec]

Instead of capturing princesses, I'll just make sure to make my Ganon good enough to defeat them high-level Peachs and Zeldas. That good enough?

Don't forget Marth.

@nestec: There is no debate between Falcon vs Link. It is not up for debate at all. And I use BOTH characters on a regular basis.

So you mean it's pretty well-known that Falcon is better than Link? Or the other way around?

Nah, she's mid tier. She's pretty much the most difficult character worth using. Like comparable to Toon Link or Pit or ZSS. Maybe a little better than them. But flashy as hell. :D

Ok then. Hmm, sounds like a fun character ;D

and Samus is 2nd worst

Agreed, I hate Samus too.

I'd argue [Zelda]'s about right where she is now. I could see her being lower within D Tier, but not in E Tier.

Lower within D, yes definitely. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if Mario, Bowser, or Ness passed her up.

@ commander:
lol, seriously though, he's getting very carried away with his "ideals".


EDIT: ok, ****, i talk too much...XD

 

[Frown]

Don't forget Marth.

You may find this hard to believe, but princess Martha is actually a guy.

Have we discussed Yoshi this month?

Yoshi is good because he has egg toss. Discuss.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

What was the major factor in the change of Sonic? Plus 8 spots.



In the issue of radical views, one typically acknowledges that it exists and proceeds to ignore it.

I'm guessing it's because of his mindgame potential. He's also been doing good for himself in tourneys. I don't think he should be in C Tier (Higher than Sheik is a bit WTF) Top of D is good enough. I'll still find ways to keep him where he is or boost him higher, but if it doesn't work, I'm going 100% ICs and move him to 2nd status.

 

[Nestec]

You may find this hard to believe, but princess Martha is actually a guy.

I want some photographic proof.

Have we discussed Yoshi this month?

Yoshi is good because he has egg toss. Discuss.

I consider myself too ignorant to discuss Yoshi, because I still believe he's a better character than almost everyone else in D/E tier. Of course, that could be just because I've never played an ACTUAL opponent with my Yoshi. In other words, the **** I do with him is probably EXTREMELY unreliable in actual play.

Do Yoshi mains ever use his Dair spike in high levels of play? Because dair -> footstool made me fall in love with him.

EDIT: To my knowledge, poor OoS and poor kill moves are the only thing that hold him back... Someone enlighten me?

 

[gm jack]

I want some photographic proof.



I consider myself too ignorant to discuss Yoshi, because I still believe he's a better character than almost everyone else in D/E tier. Of course, that could be just because I've never played an ACTUAL opponent with my Yoshi. In other words, the **** I do with him is probably EXTREMELY unreliable in actual play.

Do Yoshi mains ever use his Dair spike in high levels of play? Because dair -> footstool made me fall in love with him.

EDIT: To my knowledge, poor OoS and poor kill moves are the only thing that hold him back... Someone enlighten me?

I also agree Yoshi could be higher. Hardly high levels of play, but I was Dair-> footstooled twice in a match. The again, I suck, so nothing is said but it looks awesome when it works.

I suspect Yoshi could be higher just on a lack of hard counters. While he never really has an advantage, or go even with higher tier characters, none spring to mind that actually really destroy him. Bit like Lucario, but a bit worse, as he has very consistent matchups, so it is always a slight uphill fight, but only slight.

 

[Meru.]

I want some photographic proof.

o.o You probably don't.

Yoshi is underrated... but also underplayed. He'll need some more players to prove himself.

 

[Nestec]

I say destroy E Tier and make a larger D Tier.

Either that, or stuff Link and Jiggly into E-Tier, and move Mario/Ness/Yoshi up a bit. The wannabe Nsync blondie should drop a little bit. :D

@ Yaaay: Of course I do. Lay it on me.

 

[Frown]

EDIT: To my knowledge, poor OoS and poor kill moves are the only thing that hold him back... Someone enlighten me?

His shield sucks a lot, but he has decent killing moves. Five that kill before 120% actually.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I suspect Yoshi could be higher just on a lack of hard counters. While he never really has an advantage, or go even with higher tier characters, none spring to mind that actually really destroy him. Bit like Lucario, but a bit worse, as he has very consistent matchups, so it is always a slight uphill fight, but only slight.

Yoshi has pretty horrible match-ups from what I've heard. He loses at least 4/6 to Snake and bwett said that MK wins 65/35 vs Yoshi. M2K (and pretty much everybody with a sane mind) agrees that MK ***** Yoshi. Marth, G&W and Falco all have the advantage against him and he even has some odd hard counters like Wolf and Lucario.
Pretty much everybody who's currently higher on the tierlist than Yoshi is an uphill battle for him (except maybe the D-Tiers ... but PT probably destroys him), which justifies his position.

The biggest flaws on the tier list atm and imo:

PT is waaaaaaaaaaay to low. He is at least high C-Tier. None of his match-ups are unwinnable and he can do well in tourney all by himself. Considering Reflex' accomplishments C-Tier is actually pretty modest (I'm aware though that basing a tier position on one single player is silly) and even in theory he's a good character. Bowser, Ike and Zelda are all debatable for Low Tier tournaments. PT is not. He just doesn't belong there.

Lucas is NOT a better character than Ness, no matter what the SBR might think. This has been proven COUNTLESS times...Ness >>> Lucas. Ness has a stronger airgame ... all his aerials are at least decent and his fair + aerial movement is an excellent spacing/zoning tool. Most people say that Ness > Lucas in the air but that Lucas > Ness on the ground but that's far from true. Ness' ground game is BETTER than Lucas' as he has a much better grab (which is VERY important for stage control and additional option) and both characters' ground game is based on PK fire camping for the most part. Ness is also better at getting KOs. He has a guaranteed KO at like 120% that comes out in 6 frames and goes through shields. All of Lucas KO moves are predictable, punishable and can be avoided on reaction. Lucas only beats Ness when it comes to their recovery but Ness' recovery is more than adequate. Ness should be D-Tier, Lucas is E-Tier.

Furthermore I doubt that Wario will stay #3. He's probably not that good...King Dedede should be A-Tier, not S. Once more people become as pro with Snake and Diddy as Ally and ADHD are the top 3 might change. IC have a strong metagame and with their ability to beat anything with 1 grab (except Snake and other ICs) are potentially gamebreaking. I don't think their match-ups are good enough but due to their rising importance in the current metagame they will probably be S-Tier in the next tier list.

These are my predictions.

 

[.Marik]

I consider myself too ignorant to discuss Yoshi, because I still believe he's a better character than almost everyone else in D/E tier.

Top of D Tier sounds about right.

Do Yoshi mains ever use his Dair spike in high levels of play? Because dair -> footstool made me fall in love with him.

I do, but you want Tap Jump off to prevent footstools and gimps. I've gimped several opponents with Dair>Gimp before. You should also throw in a rising Nair for maximum effect to combo and possibly KO.

EDIT: To my knowledge, poor OoS and poor kill moves are the only thing that hold him back... Someone enlighten me?

Yoshi has no viable OoS options, but he has some decent KO moves and combo setups. FSmash is risky, and the match turns into a nightmare once Yoshi's FSmash/UpSmash gets stale. You'll want to be unpredictable, Fair and Uair are godly, but Uair>Fair in terms of reliability and it's much easier to KO with.

I also agree Yoshi could be higher. Hardly high levels of play, but I was Dair-> footstooled twice in a match. The again, I suck, so nothing is said but it looks awesome when it works.

Bwett is an amazing Yoshi, he certainly proves Yoshi should be higher. Yoshi's a High-Learning curve character, which is why his potential is often left untapped.

I suspect Yoshi could be higher just on a lack of hard counters. While he never really has an advantage, or go even with higher tier characters, none spring to mind that actually really destroy him.

For the most part, this is correct. But there are a few characters that **** him. Marth, Snake, experienced MetaKnights (n00bish ones get ***** by ChainGrab mindgames) and Diddy give Yoshi a hard time. It's also spectulated that Samus goes 65:35 to Yoshi, indictaing a hard-counter. There are several other slightly disadvantaged matchups and neutral matchups, but there are very few matchups that are actually in Yoshi's favour.

My two cents.

 

[Marcbri]

Yoshi has pretty horrible match-ups from what I've heard. He loses at least 4/6 to Snake and bwett said that MK wins 65/35 vs Yoshi. M2K (and pretty much everybody with a sane mind) agrees that MK ***** Yoshi. Marth, G&W and Falco all have the advantage against him and he even has some odd hard counters like Wolf and Lucario.
Pretty much everybody who's currently higher on the tierlist than Yoshi is an uphill battle for him (except maybe the D-Tiers ... but PT probably destroys him), which justifies his position.

Lucas is NOT a better character than Ness, no matter what the SBR might think. This has been proven COUNTLESS times...Ness >>> Lucas. Ness has a stronger airgame ... all his aerials are at least decent and his fair + aerial movement is an excellent spacing/zoning tool. Most people say that Ness > Lucas in the air but that Lucas > Ness on the ground but that's far from true. Ness' ground game is BETTER than Lucas' as he has a much better grab (which is VERY important for stage control and additional option) and both characters' ground game is based on PK fire camping for the most part. Ness is also better at getting KOs. He has a guaranteed KO at like 120% that comes out in 6 frames and goes through shields. All of Lucas KO moves are predictable, punishable and can be avoided on reaction. Lucas only beats Ness when it comes to their recovery but Ness' recovery is more than adequate. Ness should be D-Tier, Lucas is E-Tier.

PT doesn't destroy yoshi, in fact Yoshi ***** squirtle so much with his grab releases.

Yoshi vs Falco isn't that bad either, he can 0 to death him and has a lot of stuff with the grab releases, I still think Falco has the advantage but not much.

He has bad match-ups but I think all of them are winnable ( not sure on Wolf vs Yoshi, need to play that more)

and I totally agree on Ness > Lucas.

Lucas is a really really horrible character while Ness is decent, imo Lucas should be between the 4th worse characters, he has a hard time racking up damage, no safe approaches, can't camp much and as you said all of his killing moves are predictable. ( not to mention he has HORRIBLE match-ups with almost all the cast)

 

[ShadowLink84]

So you mean it's pretty well-known that Falcon is better than Link? Or the other way around?

Obviously I am referring to Link being the better character.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

I simply don't get the anti-Lucas sentiment that's been around since the early days. He, ROB, and Sonic have so many negative stigmas surronding them.

Personally I find that Lucas solves several of the problems I've had with Ness since the original. His PK Thunder can pass through multiple targets, down-smash has a much less awkward hitbox, and -returning to recovery- Lucas's PK thunder is much easier to control. Honestly, I don't see how people can really put Ness so far ahead of him- or at all for that matter. Aside from his B-Throw and his PK Fire, Ness is just inferior. I know people love to brag on Ness's aerials, but I don't see how that is such a mind-blowing difference.

Feel free to disagree, but after revisiting some of the roster, I've changed my views on a few things. While at first I completely agreed with Ganon being at the very bottom, I've come to respect him a bit. From playing as him more and seeing a few Ganon mains in action, I've found he is certainly better than Falcon. I've also come to the conclusion that Ness and Samus both belong in bottom tier. I'd go into detail, but I have no intention of arguing with some angry Samus/Ness player that thinks different. That's cool- see it the way you want and I will too.

I look at Jiggly and Link and see two that deserve to move up to low while Ness and Samus need to go down to bottom. Like I said, feel free to disagree. Not like it really matters what one guy thinks. The internet isn't exactly a medium for new ideas and changing the minds of others.

 

[Clai]

I was only talking about Peach's meta game, no in general. Hers is broken.

And lets do it, you and me against them. Ganon and Peach? You know how much win that is?
Also I havve an idea. We should have a small crew with you, me, shadowlink and maybe a few more with underratted characters and have banners. Something dealing with us against the SBR for justice of our character. It would be pretty funny. Just need a good and epic name.

No thanks. Ganondorf as a character is just so bad that no amount of words could redeem him from being where he is. The only way that Ganondorf can win tournament matches is if he simply overwhelms the opponent with his manliess. It's essentially the reason I main Ganon- I want to prove to the Brawl community that playing like a man is viable even in a game that's as camp-heavy as Brawl is.

If i remember correctly, I saw you at apex, and you are many than anyone based solely on the fact that you wore a shirt with Baconnaise on it

I was indeed the guy with the Baconnaise shirt. Shame we never played, although I believe Sonic wipes the floor with Ganon. I'm more surprised that you didn't remember the shirt I wore the day before, with Ganondorf's head placed on Akuma's body. Now that image was epic.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Could someone explain to me why exactly Lucas is so terrible? I mean, I know he has an extra 10 frames on his grab release like Ness, but apart from that what other major flaws does he has? I honestly have no idea.

 

[Brinzy]

Ness' ground game is BETTER than Lucas' as he has a much better grab (which is VERY important for stage control and additional option) and both characters' ground game is based on PK fire camping for the most part.

No. Ness's PK Fire is terrible for camping. If a Ness uses that **** at max range on, for example, my Zelda, I get a free lightning kick because of how laggy it is.

 

[Yonder]

I can't believe this meme hasn't died yet...

Same, 99.9% (Might be being too generous) Here suck .

 

[Kinzer]

Could someone explain to me why exactly Lucas is so terrible? I mean, I know he has an extra 10 frames on his grab release like Ness, but apart from that what other major flaws does he has? I honestly have no idea.

What do you fear about Lucas the most...?

...Can't think of anything? Then you've answered the question yourself. He has nothing amazing about him that stands out or is broken, like MKs DSmash or Snake's Tilts, he's too balanced for his own good.

 

[mountain_tiger]

What do you fear about Lucas the most...?

...Can't think of anything? Then you've answered the question yourself. He has nothing amazing about him that stands out or is broken, like MKs DSmash or Snake's Tilts, he's too balanced for his own good.

Well, if you make a big mistake, you get killed at 80% by his USmash. That's pretty scary IMO. And his aerial game seems pretty good too (especially Nair). Everyone else that low down on the tier list has several major flaws, yet so far I only know of one of them. What are the others? Because one big flaw isn't enough to have someone that low down.