The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Nanaki]

One grab can change the pace of the game...it could have you from wanting to punish the little kids one minute, then the next your shielding in fear that they'll chain grab you and punish you for your foolishness.

Other than that I don't see the reason why Ice Climbers is that much of a threat.......
Diddy is placed right.
Why is Jigglypuff in the same rank as Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Link again? I think that's a bunch of bull right there.

Why in the name of all things sacred would you shield if you were afraid of getting grabbed?

 

[Ripple]

S

...

Some of the recent lists are just laughable. Who in their right minds would put DK that high?

now that you can actually escape from the tornado's final hit by mashing buttons. DK does not have a disadvantage against any character except DDD and possibly ICs. (Diddy and Falco are considered 45-55 by most of the DKs which is considered even)

 

[mountain_tiger]

For some light entertainment, the worst tier list I could find (and worst page on the internet in general).


http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Kperfekt722

He lists Zelda/Sheik as one character, yet counts the PT pokemon as separate? LOL.

Also, DK has the potential to be higher IMO. Outside of DDD, Donkey Kong is perfectly tourney viable. All of his other disadvantaged matchups (Wario, ICs etc.) are manageable. Not to mention his DSmash...

IMO, he was about right on the second list (14th).

 

[ShadowLink84]

now that you can actually escape from the tornado's final hit by mashing buttons. DK does not have a disadvantage against any character except DDD and possibly ICs. (Diddy and Falco are considered 45-55 by most of the DKs which is considered even)

Uh, can I have whatever you have? Being on cloud 9 sounds quite pleasant.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He has aspects that make him a good character, but thats it. The farthest he could go is bottom A tier, and even then only if he got picked up by an Ally or M2K or Reflex.

IT HURTS SO GOOD

Pit has a lot of solid basics, but I can't imagine him going much higher than he already is.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Why in the name of all things sacred would you shield if you were afraid of getting grabbed?

Because shielding is obviously very beneficial against grabs...LOL.

 

[kingcobra9]

maybe being taken aback by someone sheilding when they are trying to avoid getting grabbed they hesitate giving time for an attack of some sort....mindgames?

 

[laki]

MK ***** marth on approach because tornado and ftilt option select him and beat pretty much everything on reaction, and beats Marth very slightly from the neutral position due to the superior dtilt range. Marth actually is at an advantage when MK has to approach him, though very slight.


For Falco, except at far range, MK wins in the neutral position, and wins very slightly on approach, similarly he wins reasonably when Falco approaches him.


Planking puts MK in a position where he cannot be forced to approach (eliminating Falco's biggest advantage), and furthermore, puts him at a position that it's very very difficult for Falco to actually hit him at.

Suddenly it moves from "Falco can approach, but with difficulty" to "Falco has pretty much no chance of approaching"

Firstly, for whatever reason, buzz had lead me to believe that rules had been put in place to eliminate planking. My bad.

On meta v falco: It seems to me while if meta gets the lead and gets to the edge, he has a sizable advantage, assuming SK92 can fight through it, it's not an auto loss.

From a neutral position or far away, it seems falco has the advantage with lasers and all and he has his chaingrab to 50ish percent which makes getting a level lead on him tough I would think. I thought the match was 60/40 meta, but after watching DEHF vs Dojo, I'm thinking it MAY be closer than that. Meh, I've been out of touch with the community for a while so my info might be dated.

On Meta vs Marth: I'm pretty sure that's close to unnwinable for marth. I think Neo said that even perfect spacing on double fairs ends up with you getting d-tilted. Then again, I think marths space slightly differently now. Plus nado/tilts like you said. It just seems much worse for marth than for falco team :/

 

[Ripple]

Uh, can I have whatever you have? Being on cloud 9 sounds quite pleasant.

its true, some people count diddy, falco, and wario as disadvantages but that is it. DK has a total of 5 disadvantage match ups if you go with what they believe

DK has one 45-55 match up

DDD (infinite banned)
ICs
diddy
falco
wario <---I don't believe this at all since DK can escape the chain grab

even against snake, 45-55 against MK

 

[gm jack]

its true, some people count diddy, falco, and wario as disadvantages but that is it. DK has a total of 5 disadvantage match ups if you go with what they believe

DK has one 45-55 match up

DDD (infinite banned)
ICs
diddy
falco
wario <---I don't believe this at all since DK can escape the chain grab

even against snake, 45-55 against MK

Wario's CG on DK is legit until about 110%. If you escape, they messed up the buffering.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Well why would I play DK if I didn't think he was good?




Yeah I agree with the bottom paragraph, I messed up the sheik placement. Sheik is actually pretty good. Edited to put him/her higher




See, I disagree with this. Ike is pretty amazing. He's got ridiculous range (he outranges even DK) and his moves have.. surprisingly little lag for the amout of power and range they have (except for a couple like dsmash that you should never use). If he predicts what you're gonna do, you're toast.

Fox aint bad, he's about the same as Ike. But unfortunately, you can't show even placements; you have to pick someone to be higher. In this case, I pick Ike, if only for his range.




This is
I don't get what the big deal about MK is. Sure he's good, but... he's not THAT much better than anyone else. He's light, he has no projectiles, he has a little above average range... eh. No doubt he's top-tier. But for some reason (possibly a lot of top players playing him?) he got really hyped up by a lot of people, and now no one wants to even dispute him being the best. Think for yourselvesssss



EDIT:


Can someone tell me what's so great about Falco?

I mean... I just don't see it. Is it the chaingrab? The laser? The side-b? Combos? A combination of those?
He just seems... good... but not 4th best in the game good. He has a lot of the same problems other characters have, and his laser isn't that great since he can really only have one at a time (on the same plane). Just shield it.... It's not like Snake's - or even Toon Link's multiple and exploding projectiles, which are a pain to deal with.



And it ALWAYS makes me laugh when people talk about DK's "bad vertical recovery," when FALCO is supposedly the 4th best character in the game. Falco's side-b has ZERO - ZERO vertical distance, and his up-b is incredibly easy to gimp/edgehog. DK has better recovery than Falco....

Fox > Ike. The faster the character the more options you have, and the more easily you can run out of harms way, and follow up with a combo. Ike can't keep up even with his range.

That why usually the faster characters are better than the powerful types, especially in the smash bros series. Ike is low tier, Fox is middle tier, so they are not even on the same level.

Falco has better mindgames with his recovery since he has more than one option. Option 1 use side b. Option 2 use Up+b. DK only has 1 recovery option, up+b. I'd rate their recoveries about the same, only cause DK's up+b has alot of hitbox range and priority.

 

[laki]

its true, some people count diddy, falco, and wario as disadvantages but that is it. DK has a total of 5 disadvantage match ups if you go with what they believe

DK has one 45-55 match up

DDD (infinite banned)
ICs
diddy
falco
wario <---I don't believe this at all since DK can escape the chain grab

even against snake, 45-55 against MK

I can't see DK dealing with diddy's pressure game very well.

Dk being big makes falcos lasers that much better and falco gets max value out of his chaingrab.

DDD ***** dk even without the infinite >_>. DKs still chaingrabable and D3s weight mitigates Kongs incredible killing power. D3s edge guarding>>>Dks and D3 can camp MUCH better than DK can.

I think icies harass DK fairly well and could go at least even with him.

Dk snake? I'm not sure. They both have the kill power, Dk messes with snakes recovery but...nades are top tier. Too much control for snake. Plus I think snake wins the tilt game though the spacing would be very tight on both sides.

 

[Kewkky]

That why usually the faster characters are better than the powerful types, especially in the smash bros series.

The only character below C.Falcon who is a powerhouse is Ganondorf.

And DDD isn't exactly "fast", by your definition of character speed (being able to evade punishment by other means than dodges and shields), he should be outclassed by a number of other characters.

Speed is deceptive. It's all about character traits. Attack speed, range, priority, etc. etc.

I agree.

 

[laki]

Speed is deceptive. It's all about character traits. Attack speed, range, priority, etc. etc.

 

[Underload]

I totally agree with laki.

Snake's a prime example. Oh, also, is there a tentative date when the next tier list will be released?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I totally agree with laki.

Snake's a prime example. Oh, also, is there a tentative date when the next tier list will be released?

December I think. Every 6 months.

 

[Kewkky]

Speed is deceptive. It's all about character traits. Attack speed, range, priority, etc. etc.

December I think. Every 6 months.

Sadly, Kirby will probably drop by then... Even though he should stay #13-#14!

Here's hoping the NEXT next tier list he goes back up again... I'ma do my part however possible.

 

[CaliburChamp]

The only character below C.Falcon who is a powerhouse is Ganondorf.

And DDD isn't exactly "fast", by your definition of character speed (being able to evade punishment by other means than dodges and shields), he should be outclassed by a number of other characters.


I agree.

The majority of low tier's either have poor recovery and/or poor speed. Snake, Wario, and DDD are the exception, just because their recoveries are good for heavy characters. The majority of high and top tiers are filled with the faster characters. Fast as in, quick attacks with little start up time, or quick attacks with a quick cooldown time, or fast as in running speed, or walking speed, and aerial speed. Any aspect of the what I mentioned, is what makes a character have a lot of potential. Having a lot of power with nothing else, is bad. Just look at Ganondorf. Speed is one of the most important aspects in a fighting game. That's another reason why Kirby will be going down the next tier list, Kirby is too slow to avoid projectiles and catch up to speedy spammers. If Kirby was as fast as MK on the ground, he'd be in A tier for sure.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Firstly, for whatever reason, buzz had lead me to believe that rules had been put in place to eliminate planking. My bad.

On meta v falco: It seems to me while if meta gets the lead and gets to the edge, he has a sizable advantage, assuming SK92 can fight through it, it's not an auto loss.

From a neutral position or far away, it seems falco has the advantage with lasers and all and he has his chaingrab to 50ish percent which makes getting a level lead on him tough I would think. I thought the match was 60/40 meta, but after watching DEHF vs Dojo, I'm thinking it MAY be closer than that. Meh, I've been out of touch with the community for a while so my info might be dated.

Planking rules are not uncommon, but they're not in the SBR ruleset.


I'm not saying that it is, but I'm saying it's extremely bad, enough to seriously hold him back in terms of rankings, worse then marth.


Lasers help initially, the problem is MK safely outranges Falco, and you should pretty much never grab a good MK.


That right there accounts for a 60-40.


Then planking comes in... it just puts falco at such a disadvantage, this match-up is a hard counter.

On Meta vs Marth: I'm pretty sure that's close to unnwinable for marth. I think Neo said that even perfect spacing on double fairs ends up with you getting d-tilted. Then again, I think marths space slightly differently now. Plus nado/tilts like you said. It just seems much worse for marth than for falco team :/

No, it's not.

If you get dtilted, you're doing it wrong, dtilt requires a shield-drop, the only thing possible is shieldgrab/up-b, which marth can outspace.


Ultimately, the issue is Marth is horrible at approaching MK because MK can just option select him, when MK approaches, it's Marth's advantage slightly.


But, when Marth approaches, it is bad enough to make it a signifigant disadvantage, it's about a 65-35 (god, I hate these numbers with their lack of true mathmatical division).

 

[Kitamerby]

Fox > Ike. The faster the character the more options you have, and the more easily you can run out of harms way, and follow up with a combo. Ike can't keep up even with his range.

Which is exactly why Captain Falcon and Sonic are currently high tier!

...Oh wait.

That why usually the faster characters are better than the powerful types, especially in the smash bros series. Ike is low tier, Fox is middle tier, so they are not even on the same level.

Cept that in brawl... they're kinda mixed. Both speed and power characters are basically in just about every tier. In a defensive game like brawl, speed doesn't really matter anymore. Now it's about how well you can fend off and force approaches and how easily you can land a kill move. Approaching and combos aren't really that important anymore if you have good defense and the best way to force approaches.

Falco has better mindgames with his recovery since he has more than one option. Option 1 use side b. Option 2 use Up+b. DK only has 1 recovery option, up+b. I'd rate their recoveries about the same, only cause DK's up+b has alot of hitbox range and priority.

Actually, it's more like...
Option 1: Use Side B
Option 2: Die
Option 3: Use Up B and die by edgehogging
Option 4: Use Up B and die by gimp.


Falco can get back to the stage faster with a jump to a SideB, though, which makes it harder to edgeguard his SideB slightly. DK can keep coming back with his up B, while Falco sorta... can't. Falco's overall recovery(AKA SideB) is probably harder to edgeguard, but easier to gimp, while DK's is the opposite and harder to gimp, but easier to edgeguard by hitting him out over and over...

DK's recovery is really probably better than Falco's anyways, as he doesn't randomly explode immediately upon going below stage-level, combined with a more friendly mix of air speed and fall speed.

 

[Palpi]

A DK shouldn't be going under the stage for his vertical recovery to be of any effect. anyways.

 

[DanGR]

Planking rules are not uncommon, but they're not in the SBR ruleset.

You shouldn't tell people to follow the SBR rule list when they make their tier lists when the SBR doesn't even do it.

edit: Perhaps I should elaborate a bit.

Most TOs don't follow the SBR recommended rule list in the first place. They take it, change a couple things (perhaps make a lot of changes. it depends.), and then adopt the new rule list as their own. And the rule lists of nearly every, if not every, national tournament the last year or so have planking prohibited. I would think that the SBR would look at these tournaments anyways, despite the fact that their rules don't endorse the tournaments'.

edit: That is, unless they actually do take into account that everyone doesn't follow their rule list. If that's the case, just disregard my post. <____<

 

[Palpi]

What? That didn't really make sense.

 

[Kewkky]

That's another reason why Kirby will be going down the next tier list, Kirby is too slow to avoid projectiles and catch up to speedy spammers. If Kirby was as fast as MK on the ground, he'd be in A tier for sure.

I can safely say that you've been using Kirby the wrong way. Kirby shouldn't be getting many problems from campers... The only projectile camper who should be bothering Kirby should be Snake, since you can't evade them like you can any other projectiles (powershield, ducking, aircamping...).

 

[laki]

If you get dtilted, you're doing it wrong, dtilt requires a shield-drop, the only thing possible is shieldgrab/up-b, which marth can outspace.


Ultimately, the issue is Marth is horrible at approaching MK because MK can just option select him, when MK approaches, it's Marth's advantage slightly.


But, when Marth approaches, it is bad enough to make it a signifigant disadvantage, it's about a 65-35 (god, I hate these numbers with their lack of true mathmatical division).

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7015089&postcount=248 Thats the post I was referring too. I knew I heard him say it lol.

Edit: Kirby's legit, no johns. He's just light and has average range in front of him minus bair. Lol@kirby's problem being campers. Try fatties that can kill with anything or marth and jiggly marth.

 

[Ripple]

Wario's CG on DK is legit until about 110%. If you escape, they messed up the buffering.

wrong, it was thought that it was legit but there is actually 1 frame where DK can do something( and dodge won't happen til frame 3). it was thought that DK couldn't do anything in 1 frame to escape but he actually can. its hard as hell but its possible

 

[Kewkky]

wrong, it was thought that it was legit but there is actually 1 frame where DK can do something. it was thought that DK couldn't do anything in 1 frame to escape but he actually can. its hard as hell but its possible

Out of curiosity since this bit of information caught my attention... What can DK do that is hard as hell, and can't be buffered? Airdodge while Wario's grabbox activates and evade it in a frame?

Not trying to sound condescending, I'm literally interested.

 

[Nanaki]

I can safely say that you've been using Kirby the wrong way. Kirby shouldn't be getting many problems from campers... The only projectile camper who should be bothering Kirby should be Snake, since you can't evade them like you can any other projectiles (powershield, ducking, aircamping...).

100% agree here. Kirby's crouch is still amazing in this game - he's so freaking hard to hit with anything but a dtilt if you abuse it, much less a projectile. His dtilt keeps him that low too - it's a pretty underutilized move imo.

It's such a unique mechanic that people somewhat overlook it and just say 'his mobility sucks'.

 

[C.box]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7015089&postcount=248 Thats the post I was referring too. I knew I heard him say it lol.

Edit: Kirby's legit, no johns. He's just light and has average range in front of him minus bair. Lol@kirby's problem being campers. Try fatties that can kill with anything or marth and jiggly marth.

Neo was referring to when your landing from fair mk can dtilt you since it ouranges fair, tipper fair on shield however is not getting punished by anything when spaced right, unless of course it's a powershield. Also marth can dtilt mk from his landing on fair too because marth's dtilt outranges fair, difference is mk's trips giving better follow ups.

wrong, it was thought that it was legit but there is actually 1 frame where DK can do something( and dodge won't happen til frame 3). it was thought that DK couldn't do anything in 1 frame to escape but he actually can. its hard as hell but its possible

And what can dk do in that 1 frame?

 

[C.box]

double post

 

[Ripple]

And what can dk do in that 1 frame?

something you don't expect. I'd rather not actually say it because I don't think that even the smash researchers know about it

 

[Kewkky]

100% agree here. Kirby's crouch is still amazing in this game - he's so freaking hard to hit with anything but a dtilt if you abuse it, much less a projectile. His dtilt keeps him that low too - it's a pretty underutilized move imo.

It's such a unique mechanic that people somewhat overlook it and just say 'his mobility sucks'.

Just to add into that... Kirby's dtilt makes Kirby go even LOWER. He can literally duck under some characters' grabs, and a couple of characters' attacks completely... WAY better than a simple crouch, and can be easily (and accidentally) applied, too.

 

[MBlaze]

Can we get a Tier List like we had in Melee on the next Tier List please? This A - F Tier crap is annoying really. Top, High, Middle, Low/Bottom was pretty okay imo.

Hayyy, this sounds cool. o:

 

[ShadowLink84]

its true, some people count diddy, falco, and wario as disadvantages but that is it. DK has a total of 5 disadvantage match ups if you go with what they believe

Then why would he be so high if he had disadvantages of 6-4?

DDD (infinite banned)

It isn't banned
This hard counter severely hurts his liability.

wario <---I don't believe this at all since DK can escape the chain grab

Chain grabs are inescapable.
you can only escape them when they stop being CG's at certain percents.
For some characters like Marth vs Falco, he just DS' Falco.

even against snake, 45-55 against MK

Even against Snake? How so?

 

[Ripple]

Then why would he be so high if he had disadvantages of 6-4?

because he gets no tournament representation and DDD ***** him

It isn't banned

I know, I was saying if it was banned it becomes 60-40. it is 90-10 if it isn't. only someone who has never played as DDD will lose if the infinite is not banned

This hard counter severely hurts his liability.

you think I don't know that?

Chain grabs are inescapable.
you can only escape them when they stop being CG's at certain percents.
For some characters like Marth vs Falco, he just DS' Falco.

OH, I'm so sorry I called it a chain grab when it isn't. MY HUMBLEST APOLOGIES!

Even against Snake? How so?

because of cargo, DK gimps snake easier than any other character. also has advantage in power and weight

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

something you don't expect. I'd rather not actually say it because I don't think that even the smash researchers know about it

this just got interesting.

 

[Melomaniacal]

And what can dk do in that 1 frame?

Unplug his opponents controller? Naw, that's more than one frame.

He can... start a taunt.

I honestly want to know this too.

 

[Kewkky]

this just got interesting.

Hohoho, I know it, and am not saying. And, it really makes me happy that stuff as random as THAT are actually found every once in a while (even if they're hard as hell, indeed)!

 

[Tien2500]

Then why would he be so high if he had disadvantages of 6-4?

Really the number of disadvantageous matchups DK has isn't anything that amazing for a B rank character. Zamus has MK (4:6 debatably be 45:55), Diddy(4-6 or 45:55), Falco(3:7 semi stage dependant).

Thats the only ones universally agreed on as disadvantages. Pika might be 45:55, and you can make that case for Wario too. But my point is that the number of disadvantaged matchups is in line with other B tier characters.

Also while he may have few disadvantages how many matchups are 60:40 or better in his favor? (Besides the bottom tiers).

Btw Olimar boards list DK as 60:40 and Pika/TL give themselves the advantage at 55:45. And there are several undiscussed matchups so there may be some more weaknesses lurking.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

because of cargo, DK gimps snake easier than any other character. also has advantage in power and weight

How to beat DK's Cargo throw: Hold Up. >_>