The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kewkky]

His movement speed is NOT bad in comparison to other characters. He's in the top half in running speed, and top third in air speed. How can that be considered bad?

If he had the ability to move quickly horizontally without finding himself in a bad position afterwards, my opinion would be moot and completely null... But most of what you'll see, if you're on the other side of a stage and Bowser's moving towards you, any of the 3 attempts (walking, running and jumping) would be easy to see where you're directing your character to go to. His attacks are fast which really helps create the illusion that he's a fast character, but his movement speed (even while on the top third in one of the categories) doesn't help his attack speed in any way. Other slower characters have attacks that may be slower/faster, but can be used at a faster rate, further proving that the character is a fast character, and not just one that is considered fast because of attacks' startup frames only.

Compare Bowser to other characters' approaches, and you'll find that his approach is slower than other characters... Many other characters... And I think I've used Bowser for enough time to at least have a voiced opinion, as well as seen a number of top-playing Boswer vids (I gotta admit, my favorites by far are the Bowser challenges... I love the sideB chains).

 

[Red Arremer]

I guess it's less about his options rather than the fact you were stating wrong things.

Which is that his dash and his aerial speed are bad. And that is simpy wrong. Bowser's dash speed is average (a bit above iirc) and his aerial movement is the 8th or 9th (I forgot exactly which of the 2) best in the game.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Bowser approaches fairly safely w/ fire, klaw hop, fortress, and PS walking.

 

[Kewkky]

Bowser approaches fairly safely w/ fire, klaw hop, fortress, and PS walking.

And when opponents evade those options, it's a real challenge getting out of that bad situation unscathed, whereas other -slower- characters with faster options can make sure the opponent has a hard time punishing... If you fair and an opponent somehow dodges it and ends up on top of you and starts doing a jab combo/grabs, that's as far as Bowser's speed will let him go. Same thing goes for any of those options you stated... Fortress won't protect you if your best OoS option leaves you vulnerable for a (small) while, firebreath only works so well before it hinders more than it helps against characters with better options, and can't really say much about PS walking since it IS good.

 

[Kewkky]

I guess it's less about his options rather than the fact you were stating wrong things.

Which is that his dash and his aerial speed are bad. And that is simpy wrong. Bowser's dash speed is average (a bit above iirc) and his aerial movement is the 8th or 9th (I forgot exactly which of the 2) best in the game.

Couple the speeds together with his attacks' properties, and you'll realize that speed alone does not a character make... Which is what I was trying to get at in the first of the posts I've made.


EDIT: I hate multiquoting like this, and then forgetting that I want to copy+paste into a previous post... Sorry for the doublepost.

 

[Red Arremer]

But what you were stating was simply WRONG shown by empirical data.

Neither his dash nor his aerial movement are bad. If it helps him or not doesn't matter, you shouldn't spout misinformation.

 

[Kewkky]

But what you were stating was simply WRONG shown by empirical data.

Neither his dash nor his aerial movement are bad. If it helps him or not doesn't matter, you shouldn't spout misinformation.

Fine, guess I worded it poorly. It seemed prettier and easier to explain in my mind than on the monitor, sadly.

EDIT: I was trying to point out that either walking, running or jumping, Bowser's overall option pool make him a slow character in comparison to many other characters' option pools.

 

[Deleted member]

You cant assume the opponent some how ends up on top of you.
That assumes the bowser is bad, and spacing badly.
Why would you assume that.

On the ground bowser can get out of bad situtuations easily with up b tho :D

 

[DanGR]

I guess it's less about his options rather than the fact you were stating wrong things.

Which is that his dash and his aerial speed are bad. And that is simpy wrong. Bowser's dash speed is average (a bit above iirc) and his aerial movement is the 8th or 9th (I forgot exactly which of the 2) best in the game.

The bolded.

Even though he may have good aerial speed/movement, he's a huge character that's rather weak from below. I don't think anyone would argue against that. I often find myself using his speed to try to get to the edge of the stage as quickly as possible so I can grab the ledge. That or drifting to the side so I can cover grounded opponents with a klaw. It's a better way to use that great aerial speed- though not a really sound way, relatively speaking. (at least in my limited experience using him, I'll gladly admit.)

edit: And before Vex gets on my case, I'll say that I think bowser is mad underrated, lol.

 

[Kewkky]

You cant assume the opponent some how ends up on top of you.
That assumes the bowser is bad, and spacing badly.
Why would you assume that.

Ok, let's see... How does Bowser lose in a match, exactly? Does he not lose against some characters with close-range attacks?

On the ground bowser can get out of bad situtuations easily with up b tho :D

And what happens when the upB starts getting predictable? It won't land him in safe positions, that's for sure... And if he's constantly put in bad positions, upB won't be an easy GTFO move to pull off... Plus considering that some REALLY bad grounded positions can't be upB'd out off (infinites, camping, paralyzing, outranging...).

 

[Deleted member]

You said, what if bowser fairs and the oppoenent some how ends up on top of him.
Im saying that should not happen.
Bowser loses because hes not a very good character ^^
Just not by bowser using foward air to be super aggressive

i didnt really want to argue about bowser xD

 

[shinyspoon42]

And when opponents evade those options, it's a real challenge getting out of that bad situation unscathed, whereas other -slower- characters with faster options can make sure the opponent has a hard time punishing... If you fair and an opponent somehow dodges it and ends up on top of you and starts doing a jab combo/grabs, that's as far as Bowser's speed will let him go. Same thing goes for any of those options you stated... Fortress won't protect you if your best OoS option leaves you vulnerable for a (small) while, firebreath only works so well before it hinders more than it helps against characters with better options, and can't really say much about PS walking since it IS good.

How do they evade fire? If they shield, it eats it up, if they spotdodge then the fire hits, if they jump then they are jumping into the fire, if they jump and airdodge, if its a short hop then you tilt it up and they get hit, if they full hop you only tap. If they roll towards you...well, hopefully you spaced it so they end up right in front of you to eat the whole thing, if they roll away then you tap and they can't punish, and if they run away then he can just end it. Fire is a great spacing tool and safe if used properly, not many options to punish it.

If you klaw as an approach, if they shield you grab them, if they spotdodge you have frame advantage because of its I think (3 frame) landing lag, and you can then fortress or what have you. If they jump, they better hit you before the klaw comes out, because if they don't klaw will win out. If they roll, you have frame advantage for ftilt. If they run they can't punish. The best way to punish a klaw approach is to hit him before it comes out, but if he reads that then you don't have much. Alot of the time, it will take a hit but grab anyway, and it has a suprisingly large hitbox downwards in the air.

You can PS to approach through projectiles, then fortress. If you use boost pivot (basically turn around while walking and moving forward) then fortress, if you time it, the invincible frames prevent them from trying to attack you and then you can fortress them, if they spotdodge...really, they know nothing of Bowser because he punishes spot dodges easily, obviously fortress hits them after the dodge, if the roll towards, you just pass by them, if they roll away, you are going that direction and will chase them to the ledge, if the jump and are planning on punishing, guess what; the reason for the pivot was so you could easily grab the ledge out of fortress, eliminating their ability to punish you.


Bowser actually does have solid approaches, thought I should correct you on that. Just because he has an amazing defensive game, some people let it outshine his offensive game. And yes, he is fast both on the ground and in the air. He may not be MK but he does have speed, and the constant people who say Bowser is slow is just irritating.

 

[Kewkky]

He may not be MK but he does have speed, and the constant people who say Bowser is slow is just irritating.

Let's see... MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy, ICs, DK, Kirby, G&W, ZSS, Falco, DDD, Sheik, TL, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Fox, Wolf, Charizard, Pit, Peach... That's already 20 characters that are overall faster than Bowser (meaning that they are fast enough to set up hard-to-punish walls, which land some of the ones I mentioned in the higher tiers). IMO, the only thing that saves him is his klaw, since it's a grabbing attack that can be used in the air, and even if it clashes, it still grabs. His firebreath is too punishable by characters with fast aerials (like Peach's nair, or Luigi's nair)... They just QC-SDI towards you, and before you realize it, they're right on top of you attacking you (which is one thing everyone around here does against fires... The see it coming judging by the distance between Bowser and their current position, jump over it however possible, land in it, SDI towards you and do a fast attack).

It's just like C.Falcon... He is crazy fast on the ground, but his ground attacks don't really compliment his speed. They're just... Normal attacks.

 

[Nanaki]

Let's see... MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy, ICs, DK, Kirby, G&W, ZSS, Falco, DDD, Sheik, TL, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Fox, Wolf, Charizard, Pit, Peach... That's already 20 characters that are overall faster than Bowser (meaning that they are fast enough to set up hard-to-punish walls, which land some of the ones I mentioned in the higher tiers). IMO, the only thing that saves him is his klaw, since it's a grabbing attack that can be used in the air, and even if it clashes, it still grabs. His firebreath is too punishable by characters with fast aerials (like Peach's nair, or Luigi's nair)... They just QC-SDI towards you, and before you realize it, they're right on top of you attacking you (which is one thing everyone around here does against fires... The see it coming judging by the distance between Bowser and their current position, jump over it however possible, land in it, SDI towards you and do a fast attack).

It's just like C.Falcon... He is crazy fast on the ground, but his ground attacks don't really compliment his speed. They're just... Normal attacks.

Yeah, but nobody calls CF a slow character, just like you shouldn't call Bowser slow. You're arguing something entirely different, and it's getting really irritating.

Being able to set up 'walls' doesn't inherently have anything to do with the character being 'fast' or 'slow' (though it certainly helps to be fast). DDD sets up a pretty good bair/ftilt/dair/etc. 'wall', but he's quite obviously one of the slowest in the game. His 'wall' is good because those attacks have obscenely long disjointed range when spaced right, making them hard to punish. If you're within that range, they're all slow enough to easily punish hard.

Of those 20 you listed Snake, IC's, Kirby, DDD, and Lucario are certainly slower overall than Bowser. You could make arguments for Charizard, Peach, and Pit too but I won't go there.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Let's see... MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy, ICs, DK, Kirby, G&W, ZSS, Falco, DDD, Sheik, TL, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Fox, Wolf, Charizard, Pit, Peach... That's already 20 characters that are overall faster than Bowser (meaning that they are fast enough to set up hard-to-punish walls, which land some of the ones I mentioned in the higher tiers). IMO, the only thing that saves him is his klaw, since it's a grabbing attack that can be used in the air, and even if it clashes, it still grabs. His firebreath is too punishable by characters with fast aerials (like Peach's nair, or Luigi's nair)... They just QC-SDI towards you, and before you realize it, they're right on top of you attacking you (which is one thing everyone around here does against fires... The see it coming judging by the distance between Bowser and their current position, jump over it however possible, land in it, SDI towards you and do a fast attack).

It's just like C.Falcon... He is crazy fast on the ground, but his ground attacks don't really compliment his speed. They're just... Normal attacks.

So you think a character is fast if they can wall? that is a ridiculous criteria, and in actual speed (proven with data) he is fast. No, that isn't what saves him. Have you ever seen good Bowser's play? klaw isn't exactly an attack you can throw out. I think I'm done talking to you right now if you are telling people to DI into the fire.

As nanaki said, he is faster then several characters you listed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario is 17th fastest in air speed in the game. Bowser is 9th.

 

[Gindler]

Let's see... MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy, ICs, DK, Kirby, G&W, ZSS, Falco, DDD, Sheik, TL, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Fox, Wolf, Charizard, Pit, Peach... That's already 20 characters that are overall faster than Bowser (meaning that they are fast enough to set up hard-to-punish walls, which land some of the ones I mentioned in the higher tiers). IMO, the only thing that saves him is his klaw, since it's a grabbing attack that can be used in the air, and even if it clashes, it still grabs. His firebreath is too punishable by characters with fast aerials (like Peach's nair, or Luigi's nair)... They just QC-SDI towards you, and before you realize it, they're right on top of you attacking you (which is one thing everyone around here does against fires... The see it coming judging by the distance between Bowser and their current position, jump over it however possible, land in it, SDI towards you and do a fast attack).

It's just like C.Falcon... He is crazy fast on the ground, but his ground attacks don't really compliment his speed. They're just... Normal attacks.

You left squirtle off your list, he's like the fastest character in the game (airspeed, running speed, air maneuverability, and attack speed).

The Klaw isn't that good, would that make yoshi's egg lay his savior too? It's an "airgrab".

DIing into fire isn't a good idea. I've seen it tried too many times, bowser deals like 20-30 easy damage and you get in a 12 damage Nair. CONGRATULATIONS, bowser generally isn't a character you want to have a percentage advantage on you.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't know if its different for Bowser but I play Charizard and DIing into the fire is an awful idea. Unless maybe you're Zelda and can lightning kick nothing you can do will be worth the damage you will take. Especially if you're a fast faller/heavy chracter.

 

[adumbrodeus]

DIing into fire isn't a good idea. I've seen it tried too many times, bowser deals like 20-30 easy damage and you get in a 12 damage Nair. CONGRATULATIONS, bowser generally isn't a character you want to have a percentage advantage on you.

That's not true, it depends on the character and the situation.


If you can get a guaranteed kill move off firebreath, then by all means, 20-30 is worth a stock.


If you've got follow-ups that equal to more, then go for it.


See, that's the main issue, if he uses firebreath, the opponent has a variety of options and he's committed. I'm sure there are a number of characters that overall have better options as a follow-up to firebreath.



Oh, don't forget the start-up!

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda can lightning kick bowser, Luigi can up b, Jiggs can rest.........you can do it fast enough and not take 20-30 damage as well.

 

[Kofu]

Firebreath isn't necessarily a bad move, though; it cancels out practically every projectile, screws with the recovery of the space animals (Ness and Lucas too) and really messes up the opponent's rhythm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What if your DIing in and Bowser ends the fire breath since your getting too close.

 

[smashkng]

Doesn't Fire Breath **** a recovering Falco's Illusion forcing him to use his awful up b?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Doesn't Fire Breath **** a recovering Falco's Illusion forcing him to use his awful up b?

Yes, it's definitely good for the ledge.

What if your DIing in and Bowser ends the fire breath since your getting too close.

SDI better.

 

[Nefarious B]

I was playing Bigfoot's bowser, and every time I'd get caught in his fire I'd just DI up and uair to start off a juggle combo, it definitely wasn't 30 damage each time either... You can DI it pretty fast.

 

[-Mars-]

What if your DIing in and Bowser ends the fire breath since your getting too close.

Well then you hit him anyways because the move has end lag lol.

 

[ook]

My thoughts....


EDITED to move G&W down, Falco up, Sheik up


S Tier
Snake
Meta Knight

A Tier
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch

B Tier
Wario
Marth
King Dedede
Falco
Olimar
Toon Link
Pikachu
R.O.B.

C Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Pit
Kirby
Sheik :shiek:
Luigi
Ike
Fox
Peach

D Tier
Wolf
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Link
Zelda

E Tier
Samus
Lucas
Pokémon Trainer
Ness

F Tier
Mario
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[Nanaki]

^^There's no bias in the above list at all.

 

[Melomaniacal]

My thoughts....



S Tier
Snake
Meta Knight

I stopped there.

There really should be no argument over who's the best character in the game.

 

[gm jack]

Wait until you see the placements for Ike, Fox, Link Ness and Mario.

Also, Sheik below Fox and Wolf is a big wtf. Hell Sheik in the same tier as anyone in her tier is a wtf. She got the highest C tier placing in Genesis, which as aside from a single B tier, was the highest outside of the top tiers. Surely that has to speak a lot about her viability.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

My thoughts....



S Tier
Snake
Meta Knight

A Tier
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers

B Tier
Wario
Marth
King Dedede
Olimar
Toon Link
Falco
Pikachu
R.O.B.

C Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Pit
Kirby
Luigi
Ike
Fox
Peach

D Tier
Wolf
Sheik :shiek:
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Link
Zelda

E Tier
Samus
Lucas
Pokémon Trainer
Ness

F Tier
Mario
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

^I respect DK's placement (a little) but not G&W, Falco and Wario. Oh, and PT, Falcon, and Mario's makes me wanna cry.

I'm sorry...

Edit: No way that Toon Link and Olimar, or even Marth, are better than Falco...

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Yeah, don't ever try to make a tier list again.

 

[Palpi]

Ook. That is the worst tier list I have ever seen.

 

[V]

Somebody loves monkeys.

 

[Suspect]

I have never seen a list so bad, im sure reflex can even come up with a list better than that >_>

 

[Ripple]

ook, you're ridiculous.

 

[kingcobra9]

i actually somewhat agree with snake over mk but then i changed my mind when i realized most snake does is based on punishment

 

[Magik0722]

only thing i dont like are DKs and GaWs placement, everything else seems pretty legit

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike was too high. >_> He's not better then Fox for example.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well then you hit him anyways because the move has end lag lol.

How much ending lag we talking about, like no brainier lag or SDI good and easy punish lag.