The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Ripple]

DK is should go back 14. he just gets no tourney representation

 

[Frown]

DK is should go back 14. he just gets no tourney representation

*sigh*

Bowser keeps going down on the tier list because he's usually among the bottom 10 in the tourney results thread. The tier list is about more than what characters can do.

Tourney results (Many DDD players have won in tournaments) + Match-ups (DDD shuts down come characters completely) + Stats (DDD's recovery goes far) = DDD is high/top tier

 

[Ripple]

*sigh*

Bowser keeps going down on the tier list because he's usually among the bottom 10 in the tourney results thread. The tier list is about more than what characters can do.

Tourney results (Many DDD players have won in tournaments) + Match-ups (DDD shuts down come characters completely) + Stats (DDD's recovery goes far) = DDD is high/top tier

bowser is one of the best punishers in the game I'm surprised he's so low. it may be his recovery. I honestly think bowser should be at least 5 spots higher

DK has a very good match up spread. only disadvantages he has are against DDD(90-10 is really bad though), MK, falco(IMO others disagree), and ICs.

DK's stats are amazing. weight+power+spacing are all the best in the game, but then he lacks in some others.

oh well

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My opinion on bowsers placement for being held back is due to his size. Something that big gets juggled easily and is a huge target for so many different attacks. Added weight makes it easier for him to get juggled. Bowser also has limited attack ranges.

In the air he is pretty limited as well. Dair will only hit if you have a decent amount of fall time (like in from the heigh of his 2 jumps). If you hit the ground with Dair without hitting the opponent you'll get punished in the landing lag. His uair is somewhat slow on the start up and therefore needs prediction to get it to work right. Bair is sort of like Dair, it's a one shot attack that had better hit or face horrible ending lag. Fair is his best aerial to use as it can be use from just about any position in the air, give good knockback and ends quickly.

On the ground Bowser is relatively slow with a large bulk. Prime target for projectile spammers. He does however have decent speed and power in his attacks in CQC.

Overall, I just feel like Bowser his an enhanced verision of Ganon. Ganon has power like Bowser does, but Bowser has better speed in his attacks and slightly better recovery.

 

[-Mars-]

Why do people always want to compare the big characters together?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Why do people always want to compare the big characters together?

Depends upon how you compare them that make them so similar that people might compare them.

What example are you referring too?

 

[smashkng]

bowser is one of the best punishers in the game I'm surprised he's so low. it may be his recovery. I honestly think bowser should be at least 5 spots higher

DK has a very good match up spread. only disadvantages he has are against DDD(90-10 is really bad though), MK, falco(IMO others disagree), and ICs.

DK's stats are amazing. weight+power+spacing are all the best in the game, but then he lacks in some others.

oh well

DDD's non-wall infinite and walking chain grab is now banned in the AiB ladder. But maybe one day the SBR finally decides to completely ban it. 60/40 is still disadvantage, but far from near-impossible matchup.

And how much damage racks a very-small step chain grab on Bowser from one extreme of FD to another?

 

[Nanaki]

Bowser is not slow. Not relatively, not at all. He's not really like Ganon in any way, other than being heavy.

 

[Gindler]

My opinion on bowsers placement for being held back is due to his size. Something that big gets juggled easily and is a huge target for so many different attacks. Added weight makes it easier for him to get juggled. Bowser also has limited attack ranges.

In the air he is pretty limited as well. Dair will only hit if you have a decent amount of fall time (like in from the heigh of his 2 jumps). If you hit the ground with Dair without hitting the opponent you'll get punished in the landing lag. His uair is somewhat slow on the start up and therefore needs prediction to get it to work right. Bair is sort of like Dair, it's a one shot attack that had better hit or face horrible ending lag. Fair is his best aerial to use as it can be use from just about any position in the air, give good knockback and ends quickly.

On the ground Bowser is relatively slow with a large bulk. Prime target for projectile spammers. He does however have decent speed and power in his attacks in CQC.

Overall, I just feel like Bowser his an enhanced verision of Ganon. Ganon has power like Bowser does, but Bowser has better speed in his attacks and slightly better recovery.

His fortress can easily break "combos", and often does.

Bowser's Dair does suck, hence why bowser players NEVER use it (nair is almost always a better choice). Uairs slow because it kills snake at like 70% (it's obscenely powerful). Bair autocancels out of full jump, I always autocancel it since it's great for baiting too when they expect landing lag. Fair is awesome, no argument there.

Oh and bowser's grab release game is ridiculous.

I know that list is "just in your opinion", but I can't help but say how horrible it is.

Ike, Jigglypuff, Zelda, and Lucas, E Tier? Link F Tier? Link's better than Jiggly, Samus, Falcon, Yoshi, and Ganon. Maybe not Yoshi, but those other characters are certain.

Definetly not yoshi, Link just dies to easy. Even ivysaur can gimp him.

I will admit i got lucky but he wasnt sandbagging, multiple people told me this including him xD


Wolf is a wierd character haha. He has like good attributes but he gets gayed so much i dunno what to think of him.

Wolf is really good, but with so many MKs and D3's out there (both of which apparently "****" wolf it kinda sucks)

Yoshi is a legit character, I just quit him after active gamers because hes hard to be consistant with.
And yoshi is definately better than mario.

I play both mario and yoshi, and Mario's Uair and Bair are both top tier stutter steppings awesome too. Yoshi's better than mario I'd say, but they're both equally fun to play

 

[Vermy]

Even ivysaur can gimp him.

Tethers gimp well. Ivysaur has the longest tether in the game, so a PT who knows how to space a long tether ledge grab can gimp any character who needs to autosnap to the ledge.
Just my $0.02.

Resume normal traffic flow.

 

[Tien2500]

Tethers gimp well. Ivysaur has the longest tether in the game, so a PT who knows how to space a long tether ledge grab can gimp any character who needs to autosnap to the ledge.
Just my $0.02.

Resume normal traffic flow.

I'm almost positive ZSS' tether is longer than Ivy's.

 

[Vermy]

Allow me to correct myself.

Longest range. Ivy's upB has roughly a 120 degree radius. ZSS' upB and sideB collectively have a little shorter radius. Not by much, but Ivy's is bigger. One of the few things Ivy excels in and it just so happens to be the biggest thing to screw her over -_-

 

[adumbrodeus]

Allow me to correct myself.

Longest range. Ivy's upB has roughly a 120 degree radius. ZSS' upB and sideB collectively have a little shorter radius. Not by much, but Ivy's is bigger. One of the few things Ivy excels in and it just so happens to be the biggest thing to screw her over -_-

...


What?


Raduis refers to a length, and now you're talking it terms of degree measure.


Which are you talking about? Lenth of the tether, or angle that Ivy can grab the ledge?



You also phail geomatry forever.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Bowser is not slow. Not relatively, not at all. He's not really like Ganon in any way, other than being heavy.

QFT.

Yes, Bowser has a number of slow attacks, but many of his better moves (jab, up B, grab etc.) are in fact not slow at all. He's not even slow in terms of dash and air speed.

Same applies to Donkey Kong and King Dedede, though with King Dedede it's a bit more understandable because he has fairly low movement.

Tethers gimp well. Ivysaur has the longest tether in the game, so a PT who knows how to space a long tether ledge grab can gimp any character who needs to autosnap to the ledge.
Just my $0.02.

Resume normal traffic flow.

Really? I could've sworn that ZSS' up B had more range....

 

[Vermy]

...


What?


Raduis refers to a length, and now you're talking it terms of degree measure.


Which are you talking about? Lenth of the tether, or angle that Ivy can grab the ledge?

Both. The latter post was meant to clear up anything about just length, but i really failed there. I know on certain stages Ivysaur can hang from her vine and be sitting at the bottom of the screen. (but not far enough to be in the bubble) and i know ZSS cannot. My logic dictates that therefore Ivys tether > length than ZSS.

You also phail geomatry forever.

Yep. I'm an Asian who can't do math, there is no hope for me in this world. ;_;


If i've posted something nonsensical that is something of nonsense, i blame the fact that i worked 8 hours flat, didn't get home till 1:30am and it's now 3:21am. Sleep deprivation sucks.

 

[Gindler]

Tethers gimp well. Ivysaur has the longest tether in the game, so a PT who knows how to space a long tether ledge grab can gimp any character who needs to autosnap to the ledge.
Just my $0.02.

Resume normal traffic flow.

Ha, well around here ledgehogs do not count as gimps. And I was merely exaggerating to make a point too. But yeah, Ivy has the longest tether ZSS isn't even close

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86-0H96ZsMQ

You can't even see Ivy when she's hanging

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

His fortress can easily break "combos", and often does.

Oh and bowser's grab release game is ridiculous

More reasons why Bowser, at the very least, deserves the spot he is in or more.

 

[Matador]

Bowser is not slow. Not relatively, not at all. He's not really like Ganon in any way, other than being heavy.

QFT.

Yes, Bowser has a number of slow attacks, but many of his better moves (jab, up B, grab etc.) are in fact not slow at all. He's not even slow in terms of dash and air speed.

Same applies to Donkey Kong and King Dedede, though with King Dedede it's a bit more understandable because he has fairly low movement.

Slow in this regard doesn't mean "so slow that I can react to everything you do". Slow means that, if we were to line up all 35+ characters in the game and order them from fastest to slowest, Bowser would be on the bottom 17 that're all considered "slow". That's it.

Do I actually think he's the slow that you guys are referring to? That's a different issue entirely.

 

[MBlaze]

Can we get a Tier List like we had in Melee on the next Tier List please? This A - F Tier crap is annoying really. Top, High, Middle, Low/Bottom was pretty okay imo.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

I really hope you aren't implying that Bowser is mentally ********, Matador

 

[Matador]

I really hope you aren't implying that Bowser is mentally ********, Matador

Sadly, I am. It's okay though, he can still be awesome despite his disability.

He can be Brawl's Josh Blue.

 

[Nanaki]

Slow in this regard doesn't mean "so slow that I can react to everything you do". Slow means that, if we were to line up all 35+ characters in the game and order them from fastest to slowest, Bowser would be on the bottom 17 that're all considered "slow". That's it.

Do I actually think he's the slow that you guys are referring to? That's a different issue entirely.

But...that doesn't make sense. Why would half of the cast be considered "slow" and half be considered "fast" when there are enormous differences within the groups?

Attack-wise (in terms of frame data, start-up to move finish) he might be in the bottom 17 if you were to count all of his moves (those he uses consistently are generally on par speed-wise with faster members of the cast). Movement-wise, he's easily in the top half.

If you count Zelda/Sheik and all 3 Pokemon as separate, making 39 total characters:

Ground Speed - There are 19 characters slower than Bowser, 15 faster, and 4 with equivalent speed.

Air Speed - Bowser is 13th fastest in the air. Klaw Hopping also gives him some ridiculous air mobility.

Some frame data:

Jab hits on frame 6.
Tilts hit 8-10.
Aerials hit on 8-9 (except Uair and lolDair).
Klaw hits on frame 17.
Fortress hits on frame 6, and is invincible on frames 1-5.

Overall, he miiiiiiight be bottom 17 overall, but he'd be at the high end of it.

Bottom line: Bowser's speed is no reason for him to be low tier.

Getting comboed to hell and back would certainly qualify as a good reason, though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Allow me to correct myself.

Longest range. Ivy's upB has roughly a 120 degree radius. ZSS' upB and sideB collectively have a little shorter radius. Not by much, but Ivy's is bigger. One of the few things Ivy excels in and it just so happens to be the biggest thing to screw her over -_-

That sounds a little odd. Certainly the length of her vine AFTER she grabs is long. But I thought that the range from which Ivysaur grabbed was actually less.

 

[Tien2500]

That sounds a little odd. Certainly the length of her vine AFTER she grabs is long. But I thought that the range from which Ivysaur grabbed was actually less.

You are correct shadow link. I did a quick unscientific test of this. When grabbing the ledge with her side/up B ZSS' whip will retract a bit as she pulls herself to it. Ivy's wine will remain at whatever length it was when used. So Ivy hanging lower is not an indication of longer grab range. I think ZSS' range is longer by a little, although she can't grab the ledge from above.

At any rate ZSS's recovery>>>better than Ivy's and ZSS's gimp game>Ivy's.

 

[Matador]

But...that doesn't make sense. Why would half of the cast be considered "slow" and half be considered "fast" when there are enormous differences within the groups?

Attack-wise (in terms of frame data, start-up to move finish) he might be in the bottom 17 if you were to count all of his moves (those he uses consistently are generally on par speed-wise with faster members of the cast). Movement-wise, he's easily in the top half.

If you count Zelda/Sheik and all 3 Pokemon as separate, making 39 total characters:

Ground Speed - There are 19 characters slower than Bowser, 15 faster, and 4 with equivalent speed.

Air Speed - Bowser is 13th fastest in the air. Klaw Hopping also gives him some ridiculous air mobility.

Some frame data:

Jab hits on frame 6.
Tilts hit 8-10.
Aerials hit on 8-9 (except Uair and lolDair).
Klaw hits on frame 17.
Fortress hits on frame 6, and is invincible on frames 1-5.

Overall, he miiiiiiight be bottom 17 overall, but he'd be at the high end of it.

Bottom line: Bowser's speed is no reason for him to be low tier.

Getting comboed to hell and back would certainly qualify as a good reason, though.

Spare me the movement data, it's an incredibly flawed way to measure speed, mainly because attack-speed matters a great deal more, and that's where Bowser falls short.

...and it makes perfect sense. It's like the weight chart. There's lightweight, heavyweight, and midweight. Then there's uppermid, lowermid, and everything between. It's pretty simple.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

My opinion on bowsers placement for being held back is due to his size. Something that big gets juggled easily and is a huge target for so many different attacks. Added weight makes it easier for him to get juggled. Bowser also has limited attack ranges.

In the air he is pretty limited as well. Dair will only hit if you have a decent amount of fall time (like in from the heigh of his 2 jumps). If you hit the ground with Dair without hitting the opponent you'll get punished in the landing lag. His uair is somewhat slow on the start up and therefore needs prediction to get it to work right. Bair is sort of like Dair, it's a one shot attack that had better hit or face horrible ending lag. Fair is his best aerial to use as it can be use from just about any position in the air, give good knockback and ends quickly.

On the ground Bowser is relatively slow with a large bulk. Prime target for projectile spammers. He does however have decent speed and power in his attacks in CQC.

Overall, I just feel like Bowser his an enhanced verision of Ganon. Ganon has power like Bowser does, but Bowser has better speed in his attacks and slightly better recovery.

You're an idiot.

 

[Albert.]

So I think we all need to discuss the Charizard Rock Smash 0-death infinite and how it easily brings Pokemon Trainer to A-Tier or higher.

thoughts?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just a hypothetical scernario. ICs could never get desynched unless you cause them to be desynched, how could that effect there placement?

You're an idiot.

Hey! No name calling. State your side, convince others. Do it the hard way.

 

[Ref]

Power shielding solves all.

 

[Nanaki]

Spare me the movement data, it's an incredibly flawed way to measure speed, mainly because attack-speed matters a great deal more, and that's where Bowser falls short.

But...movement speed matters a ton. If you don't have major disjoints, you need to be able to control your character's space through movement speed or projectiles. That's one of the major reason Wario's any good at all - he can control his space really well despite having zero disjoints or a viable projectile. Bowser's similar - if his movement speed was bad, he'd be godawful.

...and it makes perfect sense. It's like the weight chart. There's lightweight, heavyweight, and midweight. Then there's uppermid, lowermid, and everything between. It's pretty simple.

And the way you state it here makes perfect sense. The way you stated it above:

Slow means that, if we were to line up all 35+ characters in the game and order them from fastest to slowest, Bowser would be on the bottom 17 that're all considered "slow". That's it.

Makes it sound like being in the bottom 17 characters makes you "slow" with no degree of distinction among them. It sounds like nitpicking, but that's all I was saying.

 

[Matador]

But...movement speed matters a ton. If you don't have major disjoints, you need to be able to control your character's space through movement speed or projectiles. That's one of the major reason Wario's any good at all - he can control his space really well despite having zero disjoints or a viable projectile. Bowser's similar - if his movement speed was bad, he'd be godawful.

I suppose if you're running a race with the characters, movement speed means the world. However, when I look at Sonic's movement speed in relation to his attack speed, there's no comparison. When I look at MK's aerial movement speed, I honestly don't realize it's so slow while playing him.

My whole problem with the "slow" debate is that EVERYONE has fast attacks. Saying that you can simply use those instead of the slow ones doesn't magically make you...not slow.

Makes it sound like being in the bottom 17 characters makes you "slow" with no degree of distinction among them. It sounds like nitpicking, but that's all I was saying.

It's the same way that everyone below Mario on the weight list is considered lightweight. Though most will contest it, that's generally how it works.

Keep in mind this is all my opinion. I'm not trying to pass this off as irrefutable fact. I just find faults with the way most people regard speed in Brawl and I'm simply offering my thoughts on how it should work.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I suppose if you're running a race with the characters, movement speed means the world. However, when I look at Sonic's movement speed in relation to his attack speed, there's no comparison. When I look at MK's aerial movement speed, I honestly don't realize it's so slow while playing him.

My whole problem with the "slow" debate is that EVERYONE has fast attacks. Saying that you can simply use those instead of the slow ones doesn't magically make you...not slow.

I guess the important comparison is generally used attacks of one character vs. the other.


Bowser's attacks that he actually uses are quick relative to reaction time, but are they quick relative to the cast's actually used attacks? I guess that's the big question.

But his aerial speed is good, and honestly, aerial movement, one or the other, the one that they're better in.

 

[Kewkky]

But...movement speed matters a ton. If you don't have major disjoints, you need to be able to control your character's space through movement speed or projectiles. That's one of the major reason Wario's any good at all - he can control his space really well despite having zero disjoints or a viable projectile. Bowser's similar - if his movement speed was bad, he'd be godawful.

Bowser's movement speed IS bad in comparison to other characters. Slow walking speed, slow running speed, and slow aerial speed... The only "fast" things about him are his attacks, and he can't even spam them fast enough to make a solid wall like other characters can (DDD's bair, Marth's fair, MK's dair, Snake's nair...)... Wario doesn't have walls, more like lagless dair landings that give him enough frame advantage to grab opponents if they shield, or run away and avoid punishment from opponents...

If a characters' attack speed in the air would mean something with how fast a character is, MK would easily be the best within the aerial speed category, since he can do 3 uairs in a single shorthop.

 

[Nanaki]

Bowser's movement speed IS bad in comparison to other characters. Slow walking speed, slow running speed, and slow aerial speed... The only "fast" things about him are his attacks, and he can't even spam them fast enough to make a solid wall like other characters can (DDD's bair, Marth's fair, MK's dair, Snake's nair...)... Wario doesn't have walls, more like lagless dair landings that give him enough frame advantage to grab opponents if they shield, or run away and avoid punishment from opponents...

If a characters' attack speed in the air would mean something with how fast a character is, MK would easily be the best within the aerial speed category, since he can do 3 uairs in a single shorthop.

His movement speed is NOT bad in comparison to other characters. He's in the top half in running speed, and top third in air speed. How can that be considered bad?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Bowser's movement speed IS bad in comparison to other characters. Slow walking speed, slow running speed, and slow aerial speed... The only "fast" things about him are his attacks, and he can't even spam them fast enough to make a solid wall like other characters can (DDD's bair, Marth's fair, MK's dair, Snake's nair...)... Wario doesn't have walls, more like lagless dair landings that give him enough frame advantage to grab opponents if they shield, or run away and avoid punishment from opponents...

If a characters' attack speed in the air would mean something with how fast a character is, MK would easily be the best within the aerial speed category, since he can do 3 uairs in a single shorthop.

Ummm, his walking speed is slow, his dash speed is fine though, and so's his aerial speed.

 

[Vyse]

Play nice Vex

 

[Tien2500]

So I think we all need to discuss the Charizard Rock Smash 0-death infinite and how it easily brings Pokemon Trainer to A-Tier or higher.

thoughts?

O_o... the what?

 

[Suspect]

im not gonna infract you cuz you are cool but next time i will

fix'd

 

[Red Arremer]

Play nice Vex

But he's right.

Also, Crimson Viper is amazing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

As Ive said many times before, being right is no excuse to be a ****.