The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[AtmaIllumina]

Hey at first I didn't like Peach's second jump but I grew to love it. It makes edgehogging soooo much simpler, especially against characters like Falco, DK and Bowser.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Peachs second jump is trash, Until you realise that she doesnt need it to recover and she uses it to space the mess out of people

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peachs second jump is trash, Until you realise that she doesnt need it to recover and she uses it to space the mess out of people

With vertical recovery as bad as Peach's any little bit helps.

 

[Dark.Pch]

And has a good ledge game with it. I love plating on the ledge to mess with people and get back on.

 

[Meru.]

What's so bad about her recovery? I find it quite good actually. Not easy to edgehog/edgeguard and gives some decent distance. Combine with 2nd jump + toad and it's get even longer.

Her 2nd jump is good, but not in terms of distance. It improves her mobility in the air, helps her evade and gives her a good ledge game.

 

[mountain_tiger]

With vertical recovery as bad as Peach's any little bit helps.

Realistically, the only time where that actually matters is if she's meteor smashed...

Her horizontal recovery is much longer and more versatile, and since you generally use that to recover more often... Granted, I wouldn't mind her second jump being a tad longer, but then perhaps I haven't unlocked the true potential of her short second jump. Plus if she knows what she's doing she's not too easy to gimp...

 

[Jupz]

Just thought I'd like to add in that peach can float cancel if she floats into a slope

 

[Nefarious B]

MK is closer, like 45:55. Snake I don't know, there's so much debate. Falco is probably 30:70. Marth is probably 45:55 his favor, not even. I stand by 65:35 for GaW and Kirby and Olimar is ZSS' favor.

Also Lucario is probably slightly Lucario's favor.

Heh the point of my post was to show a different opinion, I know what the board says.

Olimar is def. not in our favor though, it's even at best. Most of the discussion that lead to us giving a 60-40 was based on faulty info or off Olimar not knowing how to deal with ZS.

 

[PhantomX]

But it's not true just like it isn't true for DI, because some characters ahve movesets and attributes that affect their player's ability to DO these things.

Like, Link has good DI. No, not Link players, Link. The character. His DI is good.

This is because people are wording things wrong. Link does not have good DI, he has good momentum canceling abilities. Very different things. The latter matter, the former is entirely player dependent, as are mindgames. A character may have multiple options for given situations, but if you're tricking the opponent using autocancels and stuff, that's player error and not a character strength.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is because people are wording things wrong. Link does not have good DI, he has good momentum canceling abilities. Very different things. The latter matter, the former is entirely player dependent, as are mindgames. A character may have multiple options for given situations, but if you're tricking the opponent using autocancels and stuff, that's player error and not a character strength.

Correct, the mindgame potential is a side effect of those options, so it only really can be mentioned if the character has TONS of options that can create that effect.

Like Sonic. Tons of options so the mindgames are a result.
Meanwhile you have someone straight forward like gayman&watch who is rather simple and straightforward.

Pity more options=/=good options

 

[CaliburChamp]

Correct, the mindgame potential is a side effect of those options, so it only really can be mentioned if the character has TONS of options that can create that effect.

Like Sonic. Tons of options so the mindgames are a result.
Meanwhile you have someone straight forward like gayman&watch who is rather simple and straightforward.

Pity more options=/=good options

Some moves easily beat it, like MK's tornado. Even, simple spot dodging and shielding, up+bing out of shield can penetrate through those spin dashes/charges and mixups. Mindgames are situational and aren't always guaranteed. Mindgames already take Sonic far enough, but you make it sound like Sonic should be high tier just cause he has more cancels than anyone else. He is no better than mid tier.

 

[riti]

I'll say it one more time then. and I'll take it slow and one character at a time. Let's start with DK. and I'll even type in white.

First off, the thing about Peach not being able to kill, enough already, seriously, enough. This does not exist anymore cause its just about in every excuse I hear. So scratch this out. Now for the real fight.

Peach is a quicker brawler up close. Wether taking it to ground floating, which brings her air game to the ground and brings more upclose combat to the ground. DK is not faster than Peach in fighting up close. And with all her fighting options when in ones face Makes her a solid fighter and not much to fear

Ok Has More range. Ok. Peach has range as well and faster at spacing than DK is. She Can be in someone and space the hell out of them and it be hard to get inside her cause Her spaced moves don't stay out for days. Also her air moves auto cancel. Ranges is not always the best choice for everything, for it can have its donwsides. Marth is a spacing God. But done right Marth can even have a hard time getting a clean shot on Peach. She has good range on her air attacks and speed with the spaceing.

Oh and don't get me started on her ground spacing which is a mixture of evasion. And her Dtilt slide is a good toll for that. Dtilt somone and if they sheild it you can pull away to a Fsmash or Ftilt or jab if they wanna try and counter attack. If not get your space from the slide and get a turnip. Safe hit and run with a barrier or an extra toll you get (which is a turnip when moving back.

Peach has better evasion than DK, He is a Big as monkey who is not hard to hit. Even with that air speed he has. Her quick spacing makes it hard to hit (If the Peach player is great at spacing) So you can retreat and space to get space and not take a hit. Platforms help increase her evasion as well. This is why I love battlefield against Hard match ups. Cause you will need to evade alot.

Peach has alot of Approaches and good ones. More than DK. And of course with spacing, hard to punish or get baited into the approaches and take a hit.

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss>reverse Bair
- Glide toss>Nair
- Glide toss>Grab
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair

She is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to approaching.

Turnips. Turnips are not a weapon for damage. You just don't get one and toss them hoping to hit one. Turnips are a damm mindgame. Just by holding a turnip in your hand. You are already toying with your opponents head. When you get one, it buts your opponent on the defense cause they do not wanna get hit. You did not have to do anything to them to screw with them. Turnips are a tool to mess with the mind and THEN get your damage off.

"pluck turnip"
"toss it"

NO!^ There is about maybe 6 steps before you toss it. Also Peach can fight with items in her hand via floating. And she can bring that Floating to the ground for more of a confusing. Your opponent won't be able to tell when you will toss the damm turnip. She is like the drunken master. Maybe His wife, w/e. Just holding that thing in your hand can lead to so much confusing. Hell, might even confuse the hell out of you. Yes it is that serious.

Peach has More recovery Option Than DK. All he has is Up-B. Peach has:

Up-B (obviously)
F-B
Float
Toad

"But his Up-B Has super Armor and hard to edge guard"

Good things always have a downside to it. Done right you are able to force the player to a point where he has to aim for the edge or the stage. And when going to the stage, you can chase DK and punish upon his landing. And He can't turn the other way to escape. The momentum change is so slow.

"But Peach is a sitting duck when she up-B. She is a goner"

Bad things always have an upside to it.

Done right. You can recover to the stage without ever having to up-B. I don't ever burn my jump unless I have too. Even when it looks like I should, I don't and I can make it back. Also when Peach gets the chance, she should ALWAYS recover High. F-B and toad help with this. Oh and guess what. From this you still have 2 recovery options left. Second Jump and up-B.

Also with her Up-B you can open and close it really quick and do quick momentum changes. Do that trick Excel spoke about with the C-stick. Also U can use toad to air stall to slightly increase evasion and land safe to the ground.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are people with me so far, any questions, concerns, if not then we are done with this, Peach>DK unless someone can beat this and tell me otherwise. And honestly, I don't think anyone can.

hey man can a B**** mess with a P I M P ?

have you ever watched KING KONG ?

 

[Laijin]

Why is Metaknight top tier? That guy dies pretty easily since he is has weak defense.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why is Metaknight top tier? That guy dies pretty easily since he is has weak defense.

It's really easy to spot his natural advantages if you know where to look. His attacks are all incredibly fast, incredibly long ranged, and his neutral special and up special are rather amazing when utilized properly. His multiple jumps combined with his exquisite aerials allows him to gimp the entire cast without so much as a sweat, and he seems to have a near-uncounterable option for any situation.


tl;dr His defense has no holes, and his offense is just as deadly. His recovery is unmatched, and his gimping is unrivaled. His speed is uncontested, and his range is excellent. His overall options are superb, and his neutral and up specials are broken.

 

[Laijin]

It's really easy to spot his natural advantages if you know where to look. His attacks are all incredibly fast, incredibly long ranged, and his neutral special and up special are rather amazing when utilized properly. His multiple jumps combined with his exquisite aerials allows him to gimp the entire cast without so much as a sweat, and he seems to have a near-uncounterable option for any situation.


tl;dr His defense has no holes, and his offense is just as deadly. His recovery is unmatched, and his gimping is unrivaled. His speed is uncontested, and his range is excellent. His overall options are superb, and his neutral and up specials are broken.

What are you talking about? He dies pretty fast. Have you ever played against a snake player with Metaknight? Yea. You come back and tell me Metaknight lives after getting hit with snake's forward smash.

 

[gm jack]

You do have a very good point.

 

[Kitamerby]

What are you talking about? He dies pretty fast. Have you ever played against a snake player with Metaknight? Yea. You come back and tell me Metaknight lives after getting hit with snake's forward smash.

However, Meta Knight has the tools to avoid that Forward Smash. Meta Knight most likely has the best tools to avoid virtually anything in the game that he wishes to avoid. In all honesty, using Snake's forward smash vs. a Meta Knight in a neutral position is just suicide.
I believe a good video demonstrating Meta Knight's abilities would be the match of M2K vs. Candy, shown here.

...And on a more lulzy note, Sethlon vs. DMK.

 

[Gindler]

Only guaranteed on 4 characters, who are MK, Lucas, Squirtle and a single IC. Take out IC as they **** her and then the only really useful one is MK. She can do it to some other who jump release, but if they know the match up, they would just ground release.

However, as MK is the hardest to gimp, it means that suddenly, she doesn't really have a killing problem. Her gimp game is one of the best, she has the decayed Ftilt to Usmash tipper on everyone and ever stuff like her aerials, Dsmash and Fsmash can kill closer to the edge of the stage. Oh, and DACUS to punish everything.

Sheik doesn't even have to boost smash with wario, dash Usmash with it's ridiculous knockback upon tipping. Sheik does have some good grab releases

 

[Jupz]

Almost everyone can own Wario after he air releases.

 

[gm jack]

Sheik doesn't even have to boost smash with wario, dash Usmash with it's ridiculous knockback upon tipping. Sheik does have some good grab releases

She also has an infinite chain grab on Wario after 40% (so she can get pummel damage in), has some awesome footstool combos from a grab on him (release, footstool, Bair, full needle storm, single needle to force get up, then either regrab, DACUS or dash attack.

Shame Wario is so hard to grab.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Some moves easily beat it, like MK's tornado.

Stop playing idiotic sonic players who will spindash at your tornado.
Or spindash at you directly when you can do something about it.
The move is not meant to be a direct approach period. Its bad when used in such a manner.

Even, simple spot dodging and shielding, up+bing out of shield can penetrate through those spin dashes/charges and mixups.

I side B then cancel. You ^b like an idiot. I land camp you, and Fsmash you as you land during that nice 3 frame helpless state.

The fact Sonic can cancel his spindashes in mid movement means you arent going to punish it. Your ignorance is very apparent.

Mindgames are situational and aren't always guaranteed. Mindgames already take Sonic far enough, but you make it sound like Sonic should be high tier just cause he has more cancels than anyone else. He is no better than mid tier.

...

Red text is needed because calibur champ is an idiot.
1. Mindgames are based entirely on the player's involved. It is not something that is involved concerninga character, Something I have been repeatedly stating for the longest and you would know if you learned to READ.
2. Sonic's mindgames a re aresult of having a wealth ofoptions, this splits from apart from the cast in that he is never in a situation where he is dedicated. Where as a character like fox must perform an action in order to be safe. Sonic has so many more all the while maintaining the ability to cancel, and go into another option. This enhances his capability to punish greatly especially due to the fact that he can punish pretty much anything within a 20 frame scope.
3. I have not made Sonic sound like high tier, I have said he is mid tier from day one, low mid tier specifically. If you are COMPLETELY incapable of reading my posts, as well as being insistent on strawmanning me, I shall simply put you on ignore. You've already shown yourself t be ignorant on the subject, don't show yourself to be ignorant as an individual.


KTHXBAI


tl;dr NO U

 

[smashkng]

She also has an infinite chain grab on Wario after 40% (so she can get pummel damage in), has some awesome footstool combos from a grab on him (release, footstool, Bair, full needle storm, single needle to force get up, then either regrab, DACUS or dash attack.


Shame Wario is so hard to grab.

I still think it's large advantage for Wario. Wario outpriorises Sheik by a lot. As long as Wario doesn't get grabbed he will kill Sheik much earlier and much easier. And the pivot grab regrab time is extremely short. Also watch out Farts when at 1:00-2:00! If it hits it will kill very early.

Almost everyone can own Wario after he air releases.

A good Wario will never jump break against Pikachu. As long as he mashes without tapping up or pressing jump forget about grab releasing Wario with Pikachu, he will just ground break which is like everyone else has except Ness, Lucas and DK. There aren't so many characters that can force Wario to jump, which are usually large characters as very short characters can only keep Wario's feet in edge of stages which is even more situational due Wario's amazing recovery.

 

[Vermy]

If shield grabbed during an aerial, it forces an air release.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

Alright. Just to add more into the Princess Toadstool mindgame, she can horribly trick your opponents into thinking you're going to do a move. It's pretty nifty when you are able to seem like you're wavedashing in Brawl and mindgaming your opponent at the same time. Toadstool is pretty much the only character capable of doing that. I use that plenty in my strategy and it works perfectly on foes. Practically the only kinds of enemies that won't fall for it are computers, since they can read your inputs lol. But try it on a human and they'll think they're seeing doubles. Some people I played did double takes at the situations. Yeah she's that powerful.

 

[mountain_tiger]

If Peach got her old DSmash back she's probably be bottom of A Tier.

As it stands, Peach will probably rise a bit next list, but not much. One or two positions, I reckon. She's not going to rise significantly until people find a guaranteed way to sweetspot USmash.

BTW, someone beforehand said that the next tier list is next summer. Is that true, or is it just a rumour?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

With ZSS grab release-> pivot bair is awesome. Just sayin'.

 

[Jupz]

I still think it's large advantage for Wario. Wario outpriorises Sheik by a lot. As long as Wario doesn't get grabbed he will kill Sheik much earlier and much easier. And the pivot grab regrab time is extremely short. Also watch out Farts when at 1:00-2:00! If it hits it will kill very early.



A good Wario will never jump break against Pikachu. As long as he mashes without tapping up or pressing jump forget about grab releasing Wario with Pikachu, he will just ground break which is like everyone else has except Ness, Lucas and DK. There aren't so many characters that can force Wario to jump, which are usually large characters as very short characters can only keep Wario's feet in edge of stages which is even more situational due Wario's amazing recovery.

I know, I said "out of an air release"

I know he can ground release on a lot of characters.

 

[TLMSheikant]

My first attempt at a tier list. Bear with me .

S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier: :shiek:
D Tier:
E Tier:
F Tier:

Probably a fail tier list, but thats what I think.

 

[Jupz]

Dedede is way too low, as is Donkey Kong and Zelda. Otherwise not bad.

 

[Palpi]

Move D3 above Marth.

 

[adumbrodeus]

With ZSS grab release-> pivot bair is awesome. Just sayin'.

Good luck getting a grab, unless you guys have set-ups, do you?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Good luck getting a grab, unless you guys have set-ups, do you?

DSmash and nB.

Other than that, not really...

 

[TLMSheikant]

I think D3 is overrated. :/ He may make half the cast unviable but he has some pretty **** matchups himself, including the ICs, Olimar, Pika and Falco. His other saving point is that he has a pretty "good" matchup against Snake and that is 55-45 DDD at worst. Very winnable by snake. I will move him up though since I underrated him a bit too much .

Zelda is where she is because...well she gets ***** by everyone. She doesnt have any approach options and shes always outcamped, her recovery sucks and shes just...bad O_O.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think D3 is overrated. :/ He may make half the cast unviable but he has some pretty **** matchups himself, including the ICs, Olimar, Pika and Falco. His other saving point is that he has a pretty "good" matchup against Snake and that is 55-45 DDD at worst. Very winnable by snake. I will move him up though since I underrated him a bit too much .

Zelda is where she is because...well she gets ***** by everyone. She doesnt have any approach options and shes always outcamped, her recovery sucks and shes just...bad O_O.

Thing is, she does well against characters that really can't force her to approach, and she's got niche good match-ups against certain much higher characters (aka, DDD and ICs).


That's the reason why she's not deserving of a spot that low.


Don't get me wrong, Zelda sucks, but she has applications as a secondary.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Good luck getting a grab, unless you guys have set-ups, do you?

Wat.

I didn't say "THIS OWNZ WARIO!!!" I just said it was fun. And give me a break, grabs happen.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wat.

I didn't say "THIS OWNZ WARIO!!!" I just said it was fun. And give me a break, grabs happen.

Honestly, I didn't even look to see who you were talking about before I posted, and it doesn't really matter too much, my concern was more about the fact that ZSS's grab sucks in general, it takes way too long to come out, is way too punishable, it really just sucks.


I mean, grabs can happen, but with ZSS the risk/reward ratio is too low for it to be a major factor in almost any match-up.



Though, I realize you said it's fun, so I'm not disagreeing with what you said, it's just a commentary.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Honestly, I didn't even look to see who you were talking about before I posted, and it doesn't really matter too much, my concern was more about the fact that ZSS's grab sucks in general, it takes way too long to come out, is way too punishable, it really just sucks.


I mean, grabs can happen, but with ZSS the risk/reward ratio is too low for it to be a major factor in almost any match-up.



Though, I realize you said it's fun, so I'm not disagreeing with what you said, it's just a commentary.

I get a little tired of being dogging on the grab. It's not great (ok, it does kind of suck) but it has a lot of uses that other grabs don't. For instance, if you're shielded and get hit by a laggy attack, ZSS can grab out of it whereas most characters might get hit too far back during shieldstun for their grabs to connect. A good example is Dedede's dsmash or his Dash Attack; these are laggy attacks that knock the opponent back pretty far when they're shielded. Using Dedede as an example, this is amazing because of the chaingrab she has on him from 0-60%+.

The grab also has a bizarre magnet effect at the end that allows you to grab opponents that are really far above or below the disjoint. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_tqy8_qNI at about 2:04. Thus you can actually grab people that are falling out of laggy aerials or just in the air in general.

Plus ZSS has chaingrabs on a lot of characters, even a few good ones including Bowser, Dedede, Snake, CF, Ganon, Link, Falco, Fox, and Link. Without the range her grab has these probably would not be possible (although who knows, with a different grab we might have different tricks).

I don't think I've watched a high-end match with a ZSS player in months that hasn't had a few grabs in it. Don't be ridiculous. It doesn't work in the same situations most grabs do but to make up for that it works in a lot others don't. Yes the grab has problems and they're never going to go away but saying ZSS' grab has no uses or that it is never used is disingenuous and frankly a huge exaggeration. The grab is useful and there are limited setups for it (including Paralyzer Shot, Glide Tossing, and a few other things).

 

[CaliburChamp]

Stop playing idiotic sonic players who will spindash at your tornado.
Or spindash at you directly when you can do something about it.
The move is not meant to be a direct approach period. Its bad when used in such a manner.



I side B then cancel. You ^b like an idiot. I land camp you, and Fsmash you as you land during that nice 3 frame helpless state.

The fact Sonic can cancel his spindashes in mid movement means you arent going to punish it. Your ignorance is very apparent.


...

Red text is needed because calibur champ is an idiot.
1. Mindgames are based entirely on the player's involved. It is not something that is involved concerninga character, Something I have been repeatedly stating for the longest and you would know if you learned to READ.
2. Sonic's mindgames a re aresult of having a wealth ofoptions, this splits from apart from the cast in that he is never in a situation where he is dedicated. Where as a character like fox must perform an action in order to be safe. Sonic has so many more all the while maintaining the ability to cancel, and go into another option. This enhances his capability to punish greatly especially due to the fact that he can punish pretty much anything within a 20 frame scope.
3. I have not made Sonic sound like high tier, I have said he is mid tier from day one, low mid tier specifically. If you are COMPLETELY incapable of reading my posts, as well as being insistent on strawmanning me, I shall simply put you on ignore. You've already shown yourself t be ignorant on the subject, don't show yourself to be ignorant as an individual.


KTHXBAI


tl;dr NO U

Tornado is versatile enough to approach with tornado while your charging your spin dash, or as your spin dashing towards me. Also you said you would side b cancel, but I would just d-air spam and tornado that strategy, the constant pressure of attacking hitboxes would prevent Sonic from getting inside. And I'm sure up+b won't get punished, I can just direct my glide in a safe area. And Sonic's grab range isn't big enough to shield grab MK's glide attack, with the right amount of spacing.

I find it silly that you start calling me names when I start saying how terrible Sonic is. And I'm well aware of Sonic's spin dash cancel, I founded it from when I mained Sonic in the beginning of brawl. I also agree with Sonic's tier placing, low-mid. I'm just saying Sonic's spin dash cancels are not going to trick every opponent each time. Your the ignorant one.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I get a little tired of being dogging on the grab. It's not great (ok, it does kind of suck) but it has a lot of uses that other grabs don't. For instance, if you're shielded and get hit by a laggy attack, ZSS can grab out of it whereas most characters might get hit too far back during shieldstun for their grabs to connect. A good example is Dedede's dsmash or his Dash Attack; these are laggy attacks that knock the opponent back pretty far when they're shielded. Using Dedede as an example, this is amazing because of the chaingrab she has on him from 0-60%+.

The grab also has a bizarre magnet effect at the end that allows you to grab opponents that are really far above or below the disjoint. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_tqy8_qNI at about 2:04. Thus you can actually grab people that are falling out of laggy aerials or just in the air in general.

Plus ZSS has chaingrabs on a lot of characters, even a few good ones including Bowser, Dedede, Snake, CF, Ganon, Link, Falco, Fox, and Link. Without the range her grab has these probably would not be possible (although who knows, with a different grab we might have different tricks).

I don't think I've watched a high-end match with a ZSS player in months that hasn't had a few grabs in it. Don't be ridiculous. It doesn't work in the same situations most grabs do but to make up for that it works in a lot others don't. Yes the grab has problems and they're never going to go away but saying ZSS' grab has no uses or that it is never used is disingenuous and frankly a huge exaggeration. The grab is useful and there are limited setups for it (including Paralyzer Shot, Glide Tossing, and a few other things).

Yes, I was exaggerating, but I think that people should know better then to do attacks with enough of a frame disadvantage to get shield-grabbed on ZSS' shield unless they're crossing up, or it will force her out of range.


But I never said it didn't have uses when it HITS, just that it's hard to actually grab with because it's a bad grab. Also, remember I did ask if you guys have any set-ups for it now.

I find it silly that you start calling me names when I start saying how terrible Sonic is. And I'm well aware of Sonic's spin dash cancel, I founded it from when I mained Sonic in the beginning of brawl. I also agree with Sonic's tier placing, low-mid. I'm just saying Sonic's spin dash cancels are not going to trick every opponent each time. Your the ignorant one.

...

Sonic's ability to cancel and remain extremely uncommitted is not a "trick", it's a concrete attribute of the character which increases his pool of options that require unique counters, and also grant him the ability to respond against things that other characters simply can't.

He's not an amazing or even good character, but he's unique in that it's extremely easy to prevent an opponent from reading you and respond to failures in reading if you play him properly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

TLM's tier list has pikachu and ICs in top tier, I approve of his list