The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[4nace]

Yea, I kinda have a bias against Samus in brawl because I rarely ever see a good one and see tons of bad ones. But yea, my low tiers are alot different because I don't see many of them played at the top of their metagame...

 

[SuSa]

I didn't know that Phantom.

I own a wii, play an occasional weekend with "The Orange Crew" (what I call my circle of smashers around me. xD), and only really play a lot at tournaments.

I rely... 90% on theorycraft since I quit WiFi. (I stopped learning from WiFi... I reached the point where it was just "fun" but I started to goof around to much and do stupid mistakes and those would transfer to my offline play so I quit....)

 

[Hylian]

I thought they couldn't double PS.

They can, just have to know how.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

I've played Edreese (twice...thrice? now) and Sky'.
@Person above me
Peach has no guarenteed KO moves. Sheik has grab release > dacus on much of the cast, and ftilt > usmash on pretty much the entire cast. Please tell me who has a worse killing problem?

Did I mention Sheik also has down-B?

Well grab release is good but Peach has a more clear advantage in spacing game. Peach also has turnip dash, which makes Sheik's approaching lame. Peach has too many tricks she can pull off and faster than Sheik can.

 

[4nace]

A Shiek that utilizes Zelda well is higher tiered than Peach I would say, but just the single character... I would put peach much higher. =P

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They can, just have to know how.

This is kind of surprising, a lot of MU's discussions talk about abusing the fact they can't.

How do they double PS with the frame difference? Desyncing?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach is better than Shiek. But Wolf is better than Peach...

Wolf
Peach
Shiek

Wolf being better than Peach is a straight joke.

I've played Edreese (twice...thrice? now) and Sky'.

Edreese switched to Bowser (more fun apparently?) and Sky' was a friendly, I didn't camp him like a ***** like I would have in tournament.

Peach.... can apply pressure, but if the Snake does the right thing. He takes no damage, you take chip damage (small %'s here and there) and overall, Snake wins.

Here's the thing:

I'm one of the few people I know who actually can use theorycraft to "know" a matchup based on my knowledge of both characters

I'm one of the few Snake's that I know whom know the Sheik matchup, the Fox matchup, the Peach matchup, etc. Why? Because at one time I had played all of these characters. I read up on each of their boards, I know their problems in the matchup, I abuse that.

Few Snake's put that much effort, and just play Snake like Snake (and usually win). More Snake's learn simply from experience, seeing theorycraft useless.

When I lose to a Peach by more then 50%, I'll let you know.

@Person above me
Peach has no guarenteed KO moves. Sheik has grab release > dacus on much of the cast, and ftilt > usmash on pretty much the entire cast. Please tell me who has a worse killing problem?

Did I mention Sheik also has down-B?

You can read upon match up all you want. Theroy is not gonna make something a fact. if you need to lose to a Peach more than 50%, then you need to take me on then. All I hear about Snake beating Peach is the same crap all the time. I'm once again itting here saying "are you freaking serious? Over a year and still the same crap over and over?" I find this insane dude. I'm sorry but I am gonna be an azz and saying if after a year it is the same crap as to how Snake can beat a Peach or why Peach is losing to one, then these dudes are doing it wrong. Seriously man, de que diablo.

Little % on snake. Dude you play with me on the battle field I swear you think twice before thinking that. You are gonna eat alot from me. And if You wanna go on about Snake camping a Peach. oh please do. I would want you to camp me. Makes it easier to beat snake. Cook nades, set traps. w/e with the camping, please go for it. Just how are these people playing you. I refuse to believe you playing edreese and get this from him. Same with sheik. I just seriously can't believe this one.

Also once again people tend to say one is better than the other cause of killing as Peach. This goes back to what I said before. People use this crap as the main target to why w/e character is better. people need to knock it off with this. Cause if that was the case:

Bowser
Ike
Falcon
Ganon
Zelda


These would be just way better than her cause they can kill. but wait, they are not and are under her for a reason. Peach has no realiable kill moves?

*Fair
*Bair
*Fsmash (thanks to random Fsmashes he pulls out, you won't be able to Tell where to DI on point)

I don't have to set up for mu kill moves like sheik I go in and hit knock you out.

" Oh but her moves are always stale, you can;'t kill well with Fair"

BS. If people just followed and read how I explained a way to kill better with Peach, that move will hardly be stale and Peach would have an easier time killing, so I am not hearing that. You would think after a year people would actually take a hint for a change. But it is the same thing I hear over and over. This community lets "Peach can't kill well" be the main thing about her. Like if the chick does not have like 100+ things to make up for it and once again, make her B tier, not C. I am gonna need to take a trip to the WC man cause this is seriously madness.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

^ I couldn't have put it better even if I dreamt of it.

 

[SuSa]

Because after a year, you are unable to fix your characters flaws. Why? Because you can't change the game.

You have to realize your character has flaws.

Snake has them, many less obvious then others. I'm glad for this because soooo few people abuse these flaws.

How often do you see people DI to avoid the 2nd hit of ftilt? I see it here and there, but rarely consistently. Almost every time someone gets ftilted, they were normally expecting it. So don't give me this "Frame 4, hard to react to" crap. Most everyone knows the range on it, and most everyone knows when it's our best option. I know I see an ftilt/utilt coming from a mile away, so I react to it before it happens.

Also I never said "Peach can't kill". I stated she has no guarenteed setup into a KO

I also never said she had reliable kill moves (of which Sheik also has 3, so they are tied in that department anyways)


Flaws:
1) Turnips go bye bye upon hitting a shield. If they bounced off, they'd be a FANTASTIC projectile.
2) Turnips have poor trajectory due to how they fall. If you don't know how far she can throw that thing, you don't know the matchup (Grenades have a great trajectory given Snake can get them to land nearly anywhere via grenade stripping or bouncing off of curved surfaces)
3) Her aerial game is good, if your opponent knows that punishing some things is just ********. (Float canceled fair. If I'm attempting to punish that, I get punished myself. I just powershield it and move on. No attempts to hit you afterwards)
4) Lightweight (while a minor flaw in most cases, you do have to admit that her KO moves aren't exactly a D3/Snake utilt when it comes to KO'ing. She should be dying far before Snake)
5) If below the stage, she can be edgeguarded rather easily for damage. (She is however, hard to gimp. But she can be kept off stage rather easily)
6) Slow movement = Few (if any) followups (not regarding low % Dair combos and such)
7) Air dodge is missing 10 frames of invincibility frames. Have fun being hit out of every single airdodge you do.
8) Unable to pull turnips in the air (meaning no turnip in hand + above opponent = bad)
9) Has poor options to avoid juggles. (Can't airdodge, dair isn't exactly the best, you can't b-reverse down-B, B makes you hover a bit, side-B is laggy, up-B isn't exactly great)

 

[smashkng]

Isn't air dodge a huge weakness of Peach? And her movement speed is also quite slow in both air and ground.

 

[PhantomX]

Wario can use his fart on reaction to her airdodge's startup animation and it will hit her, lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

By the way, being a B or C tier character doesn't mean your character sucks, it means they are not top tier characters. Players of Peach and Sheik and Toon Link or what have you DO WELL and PLACE WELL and will continue to do so. The difference between say Marth and Peach in Brawl is not that big. For the most part you can play who you want and be successful. For now, anyway. One day we might get to the point melee is at and, like, CF and ICs are just not good enough to compete or whatever. But for now, it's fine.

My point is just that there are a lot of really fantastic things about Peach but that she is not high tier. That's fine, though, because the difference between high tier and mid tier is usually just an inconvenient match-up or a weird mechanic (bad air dodge in Peach's case or the weird stun mechanics with Fox). It isn't as though she's leagues worse or anything.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For now, anyway. One day we might get to the point melee is at and, like, CF and ICs are just not good enough to compete or whatever. But for now, it's fine.

I think that was more so people tier whoring more near the end of Melee's stardom. They were certainly viable even at that point, but when Marth has a 55% win at tournaments from the top three players mostly contributing to those wins, it doesn't look like they would be viable.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Because after a year, you are unable to fix your characters flaws. Why? Because you can't change the game.

You have to realize your character has flaws.

Snake has them, many less obvious then others. I'm glad for this because soooo few people abuse these flaws.

How often do you see people DI to avoid the 2nd hit of ftilt? I see it here and there, but rarely consistently. Almost every time someone gets ftilted, they were normally expecting it. So don't give me this "Frame 4, hard to react to" crap. Most everyone knows the range on it, and most everyone knows when it's our best option. I know I see an ftilt/utilt coming from a mile away, so I react to it before it happens.

Also I never said "Peach can't kill". I stated she has no guarenteed setup into a KO

I also never said she had reliable kill moves (of which Sheik also has 3, so they are tied in that department anyways)


Flaws:
1) Turnips go bye bye upon hitting a shield. If they bounced off, they'd be a FANTASTIC projectile.
2) Turnips have poor trajectory due to how they fall. If you don't know how far she can throw that thing, you don't know the matchup (Grenades have a great trajectory given Snake can get them to land nearly anywhere via grenade stripping or bouncing off of curved surfaces)
3) Her aerial game is good, if your opponent knows that punishing some things is just ********. (Float canceled fair. If I'm attempting to punish that, I get punished myself. I just powershield it and move on. No attempts to hit you afterwards)
4) Lightweight (while a minor flaw in most cases, you do have to admit that her KO moves aren't exactly a D3/Snake utilt when it comes to KO'ing. She should be dying far before Snake)
5) If below the stage, she can be edgeguarded rather easily for damage. (She is however, hard to gimp. But she can be kept off stage rather easily)
6) Slow movement = Few (if any) followups (not regarding low % Dair combos and such)
7) Air dodge is missing 10 frames of invincibility frames. Have fun being hit out of every single airdodge you do.

This one is too easy. First off. if I was to realize she did not have flaws, I don't main her period and be one of the top Peach players in the country. Being one of the best is not simply placing well in tourny. it is understand your character 100%. And after a year, people still have not learned a thing. "peach can't do this and that, can't kill., waa waa waa" All I hear people cry about. And let one thing end the whole character in general. This is why people don't learn anything at all. And why this tier list is so stupid. And not just with Peach, alot of characters as well. This community is a mess.

Who said I need to be abusing a slow azz airdodge. Why the hell would I do that knowing it is bad. That is stupid. Same time what makes you think I wont come back on stage and you hit me with everything you dish out. I have played M2K twice in tourny. When he knocks me out of the stage I make it back 70-80-% of the time, and I hardly air dodge. Ask people who seen me play him. Same with people who seen me play snakes. I hardly air dodge in general. it's called actually thinking/using your brain. Peach is easy to edgegaurd......... what is this 2008?

Her air game. A good air game is good against alot of the cast. Float to Fair. Yea that is all that Peach is about with her air game. Peach has alot with her air game and mix up then you guys know about.

And again Enough with her not killing well, all I freaking here for 365 days and let this be the main thing with Peach that lead to so much nonsense talk and tier positions.

Isn't air dodge a huge weakness of Peach? And her movement speed is also quite slow in both air and ground.

No it is not.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

What is this talk?! Peach has float canceled nairs! What more could you want? That's practically all you need to out-prioritize any character in close range. Her slow projectiles are perfect. People will see fast things coming, like Snake's grenades because they spend so much time developing that strategy. Conversely, Peach is versatile in many kinds of combat. Her projectile is one of the few thigns to worry about. her shield pressure is amazing if you have the techskill and racking up damage is very simple.Even if Snake is high tier, someone who actually knows how to use Peach properly (Dark Pch for example, (I also can use her quite well actually)) has the potential to bring about all of Snake's flaws. Why, Peach can dance circles around Snake, leaving him a paralyzed mess. It's just that many have not realized this fact yet and listen to whatever the tier list says. I've been playing with Peach for quite some time and all though she's not the best, she proves herself worthy of a challenge. Idk about MK because he's kinda beast but In time, I'll figure out a way to counter MK with Princess Toadstool.

Edit: Not to mention she CAN kill mateys. She has fair, bair, sometimes nair and Usmash. Her Fsmash is useful too But nobody expects to use an Usmash. Ftilt is pretty sexy too.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peaches problems in brawl: A- Killing with Peach.
So lets start with what her problems are in brawl. For one thing, Some may have trouble killing with peach. or setting up for the final blow. problem is sometimes you have to use the moves you would need to finishes your enemy off to begin with. But using the moves alot makes it weaker. So in a sense, it is hard to kill with peach. But depending on how you play, that task can be reduce. But also keep in mind on how smart your enemy is.

B- Her recovery.
You can be left a sitting duck in the air with Peach. Recovering from the skies back to the stage can be a problem as well since she fall slow in the air. You can get juggled easy cause of this. So you need to be very careful when recovering to the stage. And when you land while in your Up-B animation, you will lag. Its not like melee when you touch the floor and you can move right after. So recover with care. also a tip, when you are coming down from the skies and did not use your Up-B, Dont try to attack while recovering. Its safe to just try to land without getting hit. a times you may be able to get a dair or w/e air attack in. But make sure you know you can hit. get the timing and spacing down right. Cause just doing that your putting yourself at risk for a KO. Your mission at this point is to land safe on the stage.

C- Dsmash.
One of the many reasons People complain about Peach or left her. Her Dsmash got weak. and cant kill. Its pretty much the same as in melee, but you cant kill with it and has less power.

D- No Float Cancel.
FC (Float cancel) was one of the best things Peach had in melee. it was about 80% of her game. She does not have that anymore. And so people wont get confused, FC is when you Float, do an air attack, then land and there is no lag after. Now it may seem like when you Float then do an air attack and land, you dont lag at all. Reason for that is if you land at the right time, you will auto cancel the move, so you can attack right after. try landing a Fair at different times while floating and watch you lag. So there is no FC for Peach.

E- Easily KO'ed.
You can die pretty quick with Peach due to her lightweight. there are some characters that can kill you at crazy %. So you have to be aware of that and be careful with how you handle yourself against them.

D- Her second jump.
it barely has any height. so you wont really get anywhere with it at all. But it does have its uses. Keep reading and you will see further in this guide.

Cons:

* Floaty.
* Slow dash speed (4th slowest dash speed in the game).
* Vertical recovery is rather poor.
* Shortest vertical mid-air jump in the game (Slightly shorter than Link's & Ganondorf's)
* Noticeable ending lag if you fail to connect with Peach Bomber.
* Dies vertically at relatively low percents.
* Her Turnips disappear once they hit a shield, which removes the possibility of using a turnip again
* hard to KO at moderate percentages
* Vegetables can be used against her


3- Peaches strengths in brawl: A- Speed
Peach is a lil faster now in brawl. This is what I kinda wanted from her. A lil speed. I suggest you take this to your advantage. Combine her speed with your strats and use it well. it can mean alot on the battlefield.

B- Floating.
The best thing Peach has in this game IMO and what makes her play style so unique. Learn to Float and do air attacks with it. At the right height of floating, you can be immune to group attacks, and your air attacks can nail your enemy. Learn to control your floating. This is one of her keys to victory.

C-Kill Moves.

Though it may be a pain to kill with Peach at times, she does have a few kill options.

**= Can kill well with and mostly used for a finisher
* Can Kill but not as great as a kill move with 2 starts

- Fair **
- Bair **
- Nair
- Uair*
- Dair (% has to be quite high. Best to catch them in the air with it to make it a lil easier to kill with)
- Utilt **
- Ftilt *
- Dtilt (% has to be quite high)
- Fsmash **
- F-B (High damage or gimps)
-Up-B (% has to be pretty high. But this type of task can be easier if you do it high in the air or on a platform)
- Usmash**
- Turnips(Yes I am serious....turnips)**
- Toad (Yes......toad, but the % of the enemy has to be pretty darn high and it depends on character and stage.)

Now remember that this all depends on:
- How many times you used the attack
- Stage
- character you are playing
- the % or the enemy
- What part of the stage you are on when you unleashed the attack.

So now you guys know what type of character she is, her good and bad sides as well. Once you understood all of this fully, lets put Peach to work.

D- Turnips
Another good thing about Peach. You can do so many things with turnips. Its a another big part of Peaches style. you can attack in the air while floating and still have one in your hand. It can lead to set ups. Traps. Play around with it and thing of creative strats. also here is a tip that can go a long way. When you have a turnip in your hand, your enemy is now put on the defensive for they dont wanna get hit with it. Now you can use that to your advantage with tricks and playing with the enemies head.

turnips are not a weapon for just damage. You just don't get one and toss them hoping to hit one. Turnips are a damm mindgame. Just by holding a turnip in your hand. You are already toying with your opponents head. When you get one, it buts your opponent on the defense cause they do not wanna get hit. You did not have to do anything to them to screw with them. Turnips are a tool to mess with the mind and THEN get your damage off.

"pluck turnip"
"toss it"

NO!^ There is about maybe 6 steps before you toss it. Also Peach can fight with items in her hand via floating. And she can bring that Floating to the ground for more of a confusing. Your opponent won't be able to tell when you will toss the damm turnip. She is like the drunken master. Maybe His wife, w/e. Just holding that thing in your hand can lead to so much confusing. Hell, might even confuse the hell out of you. Yes it is that serious.

Pros:

* Can Float.
* Auto-Floating allows use of aerials at ground level, allowing for a highly-integrated ground and air game, and removing the need for dashing


* Between the float, her second jump, her parasol, and small contributions by the Peach Bomber and Toad, she has one of the longest and most versatile horizontal recoveries in the game.
* Her Turnips are useful projectiles, especially for edgeguarding.
* There is a chance of pulling a Bob-omb or Beam Sword when using Vegetable.
* There is a 1/58 chance that she can pull a Vegetable that deals 30% damage or more.
* Down Smash is quick and has several high priority hits.
* Neutral attack slap is good for disrupting combos and grabs, as well as starting combos of her own.
* When Parasol is canceled in midair, it can be opened up again.
* Forward Aerial Crown Slap is a great horizontal killer.
* Turnips can be used over and over.
* Can Glide Toss her Turnips.
* Turnips disappear once they touch a shield
* Remarkably long horizontal recovery if her float is intact
* Quick, effective close-up game
* Amazing edgeguarder
* Can chain throw medium-heavy weight characters with Down Throw
* Turnips are excellent for camping, lead ins, and edgeguarding
* D-tilt can meteor smash opponents in the air trying to recover back to stages

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And let me saw this now before people assume stuff. I do NOT think Peach has the advantage Vs snake. But that Match up ratio you gave me is a no.

 

[fkacyan]

Edit: Not to mention she CAN kill mateys. She has fair, bair, sometimes nair and Usmash. Her Fsmash is useful too But nobody expects to use an Usmash. Ftilt is pretty sexy too.

Ganondorf can kill, too; it's a question of how obvious the kill move is and whether or not you can easily lead or mindgame into it. None of those moves have a huge range and good speed without ending lag without being painfully obvious in typical situations.

 

[TKD]

Here's my (totally unproven and possibly uninformed) opinion of her top tier matchups:

13. Kirby

LOL

10char.

 

[Hylian]

This is kind of surprising, a lot of MU's discussions talk about abusing the fact they can't.

How do they double PS with the frame difference? Desyncing?

Most players don't know how so it's not something you have to worry about often. It's too hard to explain really I couldn't just tell someone how to do it. It's a matter of always knowing the mechanics of IC's so well that you understand the momentum you need to have applied and the distance to which you should attempt to ps things so that they both ps. You can do this consistently by NOT trying to ps everything and instead just psing the things you know you can.

Having full control over both characters means a lot more then just attacking with both or chaingrabbing. Understanding how to space both at the same time to accomplish things like psing with both and utilizing deysnching to it's fullest extent is something not many can do.


So yeah, it's possible . I can ps with both consistently.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

D- No Float Cancel.
FC (Float cancel) was one of the best things Peach had in melee. it was about 80% of her game. She does not have that anymore. And so people wont get confused, FC is when you Float, do an air attack, then land and there is no lag after. Now it may seem like when you Float then do an air attack and land, you dont lag at all. Reason for that is if you land at the right time, you will auto cancel the move, so you can attack right after. try landing a Fair at different times while floating and watch you lag. So there is no FC for Peach.

Are you certain mate? Even though what you have mentioned makes complete sense, I can't seem to imagine why she has no FC.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

Ganondorf can kill, too; it's a question of how obvious the kill move is and whether or not you can easily lead or mindgame into it. None of those moves have a huge range and good speed without ending lag without being painfully obvious in typical situations.

True true. But I mean to say, assuming you are well trained enough to mindgame your opponents, she can kill pretty effective-like.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Are you certain mate? Even though what you have mentioned makes complete sense, I can't seem to imagine why she has no FC.

People tend to forget what the true meaning of Float cancel is. It's when you Float and fast fall an air attack and there is no lag. In melee Peach really had no need to L-cancel much cause if you just float to air attacks, it kills the lag.

Now in brawl if You was to float an fair and fall at different times, you will lag on the move. And Peach auto cnacles her other moves without floating at all. Only air move that lags from peach is her Fair if you fall at the wrong time. If you fall just before the move ends, around there, you will lag.

Thus Peach can not Float Cancel in brawl.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

People tend to forget what the true meaning of Float cancel is. It's when you Float and fast fall an air attack and there is no lag. In melee Peach really had no need to L-cancel much cause if you just float to air attacks, it kills the lag.

Now in brawl if You was to float an fair and fall at different times, you will lag on the move. And Peach auto cnacles her other moves without floating at all. Only air move that lags from peach is her Fair if you fall at the wrong time. If you fall just before the move ends, around there, you will lag.

Thus Peach can not Float Cancel in brawl.

But whenever I auto float and use her fair I manage to see no lag at all. Unless I'm too tired to actually see straight, I don't see how that is possible. Maybe I will try it tomorrow and get back to you on that.

 

[fkacyan]

True true. But I mean to say, assuming you are well trained enough to mindgame your opponents, she can kill pretty effective-like.

According to the majority of people, mindgames don't factor into a character's ability because every character can mindgame.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Fall at different times when you float and Fair and try to jab. You will lag at one point and Jab won't come out.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

According to the majority of people, mindgames don't factor into a character's ability because every character can mindgame.

Well now! What am I supposed to say now?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

According to the majority of people, mindgames don't factor into a character's ability because every character can mindgame.

But it's not true just like it isn't true for DI, because some characters ahve movesets and attributes that affect their player's ability to DO these things.

Like, Link has good DI. No, not Link players, Link. The character. His DI is good.

 

[fkacyan]

But it's not true just like it isn't true for DI, because some characters ahve movesets and attributes that affect their player's ability to DO these things.

Like, Link has good DI. No, not Link players, Link. The character. His DI is good.

I never said I was in that majority, SFP.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

Fall at different times when you float and Fair and try to jab. You will lag at one point and Jab won't come out.

Ohh now I see what you're trying to say. Well I always fair perfectly though. I never even knew that. Thanks for this tip. It's good to learn character flaws.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You be surprised how many people don't know about this. But yea.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

But it's not true just like it isn't true for DI, because some characters ahve movesets and attributes that affect their player's ability to DO these things.

Like, Link has good DI. No, not Link players, Link. The character. His DI is good.

People say this and I still have no idea what it even means.

 

[phi1ny3]

Characters with at least a decent spacing game which are usually the higher tiers are what give Peach trouble in killing, that and the inability to truly setup/pressure to get into it. She has some pretty decent kill power (especially with usmash) that people don't give credit for. She can approach pretty well, but that usually only gets you that rapid gain in damage. It doesn't allow for reliability in KO moves. I don't think it's the generic idea of "Peach can't kill" more than "The opponent is usually going to be far safer than normal", because some of the previous moves you stated (like fair/bair) are going to be used to the point of ridiculous staling against MUs where those are her only better trumping tools with float. It's my take of why she's B-tier, although A-tier is pretty marginal for someone like her.
imo ROB in many ways could be justified to the same purpose, except he has some really, really solid tools, and can afford to save some of his kill options because of his camp/keep away game. I think he and Kirby should be in B-tier.
People have been putting some characters above lucario that imo I disapprove of. He certainly doesn't have a definite and solid metagame as far as reliability goes, but a good lucario can stretch and mitigate all his weaknesses much more easily than other characters can, has setups for kill moves, has a ton of damage/kill potential, good MUs where none are in the 65:35 or worst, and has very safe moves. Granted he isn't the fastest, but he was built for punishing/responding in a lot of MUs and does pretty stupidly well at it, and I would have no doubt that having moveset speed any faster would make him broken, especially if he gets a lead. Even without that speed, he often contains some excellent punishing anti-air measures that take advantage of any hurtbox extensions (that's where you get those bs'd "invisible/deceptive hitboxes" where aura wasn't there", plus has disjoints, lingering hitboxes + low cooldown (makes his moves a lot safer against shields). Most of his aerial moveset if the lucario is smart can be used for fast, effective killing purposes, and his walling game limits lots of opponent's options that are normally "panicky" in nature. Having a near "win-win" with the fact that he still can make a possible comeback as early as 50% when behind (that stock buff is pretty decent, and it doesn't really come back to haunt him when he's ahead either). His recovery is pretty meh especially around characters like MK and D3, but half of the other MUs that claim "it's easy" half the time underestimate Lucario's gimp game, which is one of the most harassing, plus his options out of recovery are really dreamy. I sound like I'm probably overstating many things, but I'm solidly sure that by many people's "definitions" they throw about, lucario fits for A-tier. I think the definition of B-tier doesn't fit him, possibly with the exception of how "risky" his benefits are, but I think MU wise, tournament placings (although somewhat rare in frequency, because everyone who's good at him often like to play other chars), polymerized attributes, and a benefit that when having no true counter is still a strong threat, I consider Lucario bottom of A-tier.
I've looked over several char's metagames, and I can't see the other "ankles" of A-tier having as much a reason. It sounds bias, but I am firm in that school of thought.
Edit: I hate it when I get carried away and end up writing like thiiiiis.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

Indeed. Toadstool is a rather interesting specimen lol. She is glorious, even in the bowels of defeat.

 

[shlike]

sheik for b tier

grabreleasedacus2gud

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No it is not.

Without a glide toss, her movement is among the worst in the game. Her good moves that cover a great distance at once are glide toss (which requires a turnip and keeps you on the ground) and dash attack (which keeps you on the ground and is very punishable on block). She has an abysmal second jump and less-than-average horizontal aerial mobility, meaning that people like Wario and Wolf can jump circles around her on any stage with a platform.

 

[gm jack]

sheik for b tier

grabreleasedacus2gud

Only guaranteed on 4 characters, who are MK, Lucas, Squirtle and a single IC. Take out IC as they **** her and then the only really useful one is MK. She can do it to some other who jump release, but if they know the match up, they would just ground release.

However, as MK is the hardest to gimp, it means that suddenly, she doesn't really have a killing problem. Her gimp game is one of the best, she has the decayed Ftilt to Usmash tipper on everyone and ever stuff like her aerials, Dsmash and Fsmash can kill closer to the edge of the stage. Oh, and DACUS to punish everything.

 

[adumbrodeus]

People tend to forget what the true meaning of Float cancel is. It's when you Float and fast fall an air attack and there is no lag. In melee Peach really had no need to L-cancel much cause if you just float to air attacks, it kills the lag.

Now in brawl if You was to float an fair and fall at different times, you will lag on the move. And Peach auto cnacles her other moves without floating at all. Only air move that lags from peach is her Fair if you fall at the wrong time. If you fall just before the move ends, around there, you will lag.

Thus Peach can not Float Cancel in brawl.

Everything you said about Brawl peach is good, but Melee peach, she DOES have a cause to L-cancel. Float canceling aerials are generally superior, but float-canceling rising and ledge aerials is impossible/not always good.

Float canceling everything also creates a definite pattern, it's better to mix it up and confuse your opponent.

According to the majority of people, mindgames don't factor into a character's ability because every character can mindgame.

Your personal ability to mindgame doesn't factor into match-ups.


Your character's ability to increase how often you are successful (for example, option-selecting opponents), does, as well as how good the effects you get on a successful mindgame.


The latter is why ICs are good, successful mindgame = death.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But it's not true just like it isn't true for DI, because some characters ahve movesets and attributes that affect their player's ability to DO these things.

Like, Link has good DI. No, not Link players, Link. The character. His DI is good.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do it though.
Saying if YOU are proficient with mindgames is entirely player dependant and thus, should not be factoed.

It can however be said that a character like Sonic, has tools that reward an individual more greaty for mindgames and also, his options create those mindgames.

At that point, its character related.

Just as Ganondorf is rewarded for one hit, Sonic is rewarded for having so many options with those mindgames and the results afterwards,namely punishment.


EDit: ****it Adumbrodeus beat me a few hours. Screw it I poed while seeing page the last page!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Most players don't know how so it's not something you have to worry about often. It's too hard to explain really I couldn't just tell someone how to do it. It's a matter of always knowing the mechanics of IC's so well that you understand the momentum you need to have applied and the distance to which you should attempt to ps things so that they both ps. You can do this consistently by NOT trying to ps everything and instead just psing the things you know you can.

Having full control over both characters means a lot more then just attacking with both or chaingrabbing. Understanding how to space both at the same time to accomplish things like psing with both and utilizing deysnching to it's fullest extent is something not many can do.


So yeah, it's possible . I can ps with both consistently.

You are a god among Ice Climbers.

This is scary, Ice Climbers could do a lot of stuff with this.

Also my MVC2 team:
Roll, ServBot, Megaman

GET AT ME

My team: Strider, Dr. Doom, someone else.

BRING IT

 

[Dark.Pch]

Without a glide toss, her movement is among the worst in the game. Her good moves that cover a great distance at once are glide toss (which requires a turnip and keeps you on the ground) and dash attack (which keeps you on the ground and is very punishable on block). She has an abysmal second jump and less-than-average horizontal aerial mobility, meaning that people like Wario and Wolf can jump circles around her on any stage with a platform.

Again with this speed stuff...de que diablo. If it really was that big of a problem I not people people who do this stuff you go on about so many times. It is called using your head. I have been gayed it just about every way you speak of and dealt with it. You know what the proeblem is? You guys can't think of ways to deal with these things as Peach. "oh just run away and hop around. Run the clock and camp, nothing she can do, she is too slow waa waa waa" This is nonsense. And cause I am sure you don't know this. But a stage with platforms makes it easy to catch people. People can't from from me with this you speak of.

Her second jump is actually good. This is the kind of Jump she needed in melee. This jump leads top alot of stuff, and I can assume you don't know anything about it. I'm glad her jump is like this now.

And it does not matter if Peach is in the air or ground. She does good in both. Idk what different this makes for you to bring up about her not being able to deal with Wolf and Wario's crap. Wolf alone is a joke to catch. Also in the air Fair and even Bait have good range in the air. Fair has a lil more with it's disjointed hit box. Dash attack is a good move but stupid to spam cause how it leaves you open. So why would I use that move so much when it can get me killed? Thats just straight stupid. Come on dude.

It is the same thing I hear over and over and over. Nothing has changed at all. If you are getting Peach players with this nonsense, then as YOU say, they are seriously doing it wrong.

Everything you said about Brawl peach is good, but Melee peach, she DOES have a cause to L-cancel. Float canceling aerials are generally superior, but float-canceling rising and ledge aerials is impossible/not always good.

Float canceling everything also creates a definite pattern, it's better to mix it up and confuse your opponent.

I know that. That's why I said she hardly had to use it. sometimes she had to for things as you said.