The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[TheReflexWonder]

Zelda is in the correct tier (top of bottom, bottom of mid) but could indeed drop a place or two. Ike isn't going anywhere. Bowser is going up if anywhere, and I think the only thing holding him back is a lack of skilled players. PT has some serious potential to go up. Nobody in C is likely to drop a tier.

The tiers seem pretty much right, which just a few minor adjustments in placing unless there is some groundbreaking new AT discovered.

Zelda should be in E Tier.

Bowser could go up. I haven't seen much excellent Bowser play, but I see at least a decent amount of potential.

Pokemon Trainer should go up. Baton Passing is too good.

Ike is probably alright--maybe going down. His metagame has been at a standstill for a while, but he's still somewhat solid as a character.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Zelda should be in E Tier.

Bowser could go up. I haven't seen much excellent Bowser play, but I see at least a decent amount of potential.

Pokemon Trainer should go up. Baton Passing is too good.

Ike is probably alright--maybe going down. His metagame has been at a standstill for a while, but he's still somewhat solid as a character.

I agree with everything except the top statement. Zelda is fine where she is currently.

 

[Kitamerby]

I'm not sure about that. We have been told time and time again that tournament placings don't determine who places where in the tier list. If anything, FOW will be proof that skill is greater than the tier list. Or at the very least that character match-up experience plays a huge part in how well one does. You see FOW win sets against certain characters people use, then simply get mauled by others by losing both matches.

FOW is proof that WC doesn't know **** about how to fight Ness.

 

[Nestec]

I'm not sure about that. We have been told time and time again that tournament placings don't determine who places where in the tier list. If anything, FOW will be proof that skill is greater than the tier list. Or at the very least that character match-up experience plays a huge part in how well one does. You see FOW win sets against certain characters people use, then simply get mauled by others by losing both matches.

It's not just FOW.

And as far as I know, Reflex is a HUGE reason for PT leaving E-Tier.
FOW is to Ness as Reflex is to PT.

Bowser is going up if anywhere, and I think the only thing holding him back is a lack of skilled players

And some rapeuptheass match-ups.

And WTF, I know this argument has come about before, but Bowser should not be able to go much higher because of his tourney results. I don't care if he's got "great" potential, I STILL don't think it should count as much if it's not being applied in the metagame... -____-

 

[philbobjoe]

FOW is proof that WC doesn't know **** about how to fight Ness.

FOW lost to Judge (MW) and MikeHAZE (WC) at Genesis, and to Tyrant (WC) and Bardull (WC) at Evo. He also ended up beating Judge at Evo too. So it looks like WC is the only one who knows how to play Ness.

 

[Nestec]

FOW lost to Judge (MW) and MikeHAZE (WC) at Genesis, and to Tyrant (WC) and Bardull (WC) at Evo. He also ended up beating Judge at Evo too. So it looks like WC is the only one who knows how to play Ness.

Wait, what?

 

[philbobjoe]

He lost to Judge at Genesis, but beat him at Evo. My wording wasn't the best right there.

 

[Nestec]

Ah, 'tis okay.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've been told that Mario's only low due to poor tournament results. Which wouldn't make much sense if what Crystal says is true.

And I've been told by various times about tournament results not to seemingly affect the Tier list. Tournament results are more a measure of skill than anything else. Not the character itself. If you went by tournament results as being a major factor, than a few characters should be rearranged on the tier list. I mean, characters like Falco, Wario I hardly ever see getting top 8 in a major tourney. It's mostly characters like ICs, DDD, Snake, and MK. At least in recent events.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Are tournament results used to weigh which matchups are most important to have even/good in? IE: Mario hasn't been winning many tournaments, so even having just a slightly even matchup against Snake or MK will weigh better than having a good matchup against Mario?

 

[gm jack]

And some rapeuptheass match-ups.

And WTF, I know this argument has come about before, but Bowser should not be able to go much higher because of his tourney results. I don't care if he's got "great" potential, I STILL don't think it should count as much if it's not being applied in the metagame... -____-

Last time I checked, Marth had an easy grab to death on Ness, so in theory, that should stop him being higher. Oh, and DK needs to go down to low tier as well at that due to DDD. Hell, DDD gets ***** by Falco, IC, Pikachu and Olimar and he is still top tier.

Tier lists are overall viability, but some characters do need a secondary before they can do well. Bowser is only really taken down by DDD, IC and Diddy as far as I know. That is not bad at all. Aside from that, he generally seems to go from even to slight disadvantage against the rest of the higher tiers. Get a secondary who can deal with those 3 such as MK or Zelda (seriously, she has a slight advantage on all 3) and Bowser suddenly becomes a solid character.

 

[<π]

Zelda should be in E Tier.

I came in here just to quote this.

 

[Master Raven]

... DK is definitely not low.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Get a secondary who can deal with those 3 such as MK or Zelda (seriously, she has a slight advantage on all 3) and Bowser suddenly becomes a solid character.

No he doesn't. That's not how the CP system works. Also, secondary or not Bowser is still bad.

Last time I checked, Marth had an easy grab to death on Ness, so in theory, that should stop him being higher.

Grab silliness really only affects characters that are gravely affected by it. A dozen or more characters have grab-release silliness on Wario, but he's considered to be #3 in the game right now.

BTW, our tier list isn't really based on anything. A bunch of solid players and large-scale tourney directors vote. They vote. They discuss a lot and certainly vote based on certain criteria, but in the end it's just "OK, vote 1 if you think Ness is high tier, 2 if he's mid, and 3 if he's low." All the tier list really measures is how these guys voted that day. It doesn't measure anything else. If FOW or some other Ness starts not getting grabbed and ****** the tourney scene with Ness, Ness will go up, but only because the voters believe he's good. For no other reason.

Of course it is vaguely correct and even exactly in some cases (MK is probably the best character in the game).

 

[Nestec]

Last time I checked, Marth had an easy grab to death on Ness, so in theory, that should stop him being higher. Oh, and DK needs to go down to low tier as well at that due to DDD.

Wait, what is even your point here? o_O Bowser still has some horrid match-ups, and almost NO favorable ones. Yes, Ness gets ***** by Marth. Everybody knows that.

Hell, DDD gets ***** by Falco, IC, Pikachu and Olimar and he is still top tier.

Thus, D3's placement is still questioned by many.

Tier lists are overall viability, but some characters do need a secondary before they can do well. Bowser is only really taken down by DDD, IC and Diddy as far as I know. That is not bad at all. Aside from that, he generally seems to go from even to slight disadvantage against the rest of the higher tiers. Get a secondary who can deal with those 3 such as MK or Zelda (seriously, she has a slight advantage on all 3) and Bowser suddenly becomes a solid character.

Some characters below Bowser have slightly superior match-ups. AND superior tourney placings.

BTW, our tier list isn't really based on anything. A bunch of solid players and large-scale tourney directors vote. They vote. They discuss a lot and certainly vote based on certain criteria, but in the end it's just "OK, vote 1 if you think Ness is high tier, 2 if he's mid, and 3 if he's low." All the tier list really measures is how these guys voted that day. It doesn't measure anything else. If FOW or some other Ness starts not getting grabbed and ****** the tourney scene with Ness, Ness will go up, but only because the voters believe he's good. For no other reason.

Sad truth right there. QFFT.

 

[DanGR]

Hell, DDD gets ***** by Falco, IC, Pikachu and Olimar and he is still top tier.

Olimar doesn't **** d3. Who you getting this from?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I <3 the King. That said I'd be unbelievably surprised if he's still top tier next time around.

 

[Matador]

Olimar doesn't **** d3. Who you getting this from?

I always figured he beat him pretty handily.

All things considered, it makes sense.

 

[uhmuzing]

King Dedede should be above Falco in my opinion.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Olimar doesn't **** d3. Who you getting this from?

Saying D3 gets '*****' by Olimar and Pikachu is probably a tad extreme. They beat him yes, but it's not unwinnable for him. Around 60:40 IMO.

D3 does get beaten really badly by Falco and the ICs though.

 

[smashkng]

Except DDD's broken infinite DK's matchups are very good. He is NOT a low tier character, only for one matchup he doesn't deserve that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I came in here just to quote this.

Everyone can hold me to that.

FOW lost to Judge (MW) and MikeHAZE (WC) at Genesis, and to Tyrant (WC) and Bardull (WC) at Evo. He also ended up beating Judge at Evo too. So it looks like WC is the only one who knows how to play Ness.

He also lost to me in friendlies. >:D

Squirtle and Charizard have grab-release -> grab shenanigans.

 

[gm jack]

Wait, what is even your point here? o_O Bowser still has some horrid match-ups, and almost NO favorable ones. Yes, Ness gets ***** by Marth. Everybody knows that.

Actually, he doesn't. Looking at the matchup chart, those were the only ones less than 40:60. He suffers to a degree from projectile camping, but not many can actually use it to suck a degree to offset his crazy grab release and OoS stuff and well as strong spacing and surprisingly high agility.

Wario doesn't have many people who play to a high level with him, but those that do generally do well, hence it doesn't hinder. There are even less good Bowser players, so with an inferior character, very few are going to get placing at major events.

On the topic of Wario's grab release stuff, it doesn't punish him because he has to tools to avoid it.

@TheReflexWonder

I can see why Zelda could be in a position to go down a tier, but from my experiences her limited tools are strong enough to outclass those in E tier. she doe have and awesome defensive game, and lots of strong, high priority attacks, some of which are very quick. If you can't out camp her, you are likely to have problems unless you have a sword. None below her seem to be able to do that.

Saying that, some of those above her destroy her so hard, she could potentially go down on that point alone.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser is better then most people give him credit for.

 

[philbobjoe]

Everyone can hold me to that.



He also lost to me in friendlies. >:D

Squirtle and Charizard have grab-release -> grab shenanigans.

And I imagine he has little PT experience, but that isn't really important. I was mostly just proving that he wasn't ****** only WC.

 

[:mad:]

King Dedede should be above Falco in my opinion.

Any reasons?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Any reasons?

Because...because...because...

DDD HAS TEH PH1RE!

Smooth Criminal

 

[deepseadiva]

I can see why Zelda could be in a position to go down a tier, but from my experiences her limited tools are strong enough to outclass those in E tier. she doe have and awesome defensive game, and lots of strong, high priority attacks, some of which are very quick. If you can't out camp her, you are likely to have problems unless you have a sword. None below her seem to be able to do that.

This game is more about having five more options than the next, rather than having one very nice one. Even then, that one options has to be really, really good. A good example of "limited but strong tools" would be G&W. Zelda's I can only see as above average.

I can see Yoshi, Mario, and clearly Ness outclassing her.

And Zelda can't "out camp" anyone.

 

[PKNintendo]

Can someone explain to me why Ike is D tier? It's not a claim that I think he sucks. But I literally know nothing about him so...

 

[Dark.Pch]

Not many people in tournaments doing anything with Ike to see how GOOD or BAD he really is. And the same can be said for a lot of characters on this list. In my eyes, it seems only the high tier characters are that matter here.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Can someone explain to me why Ike is D tier? It's not a claim that I think he sucks. But I literally know nothing about him so...

Ike is a character with a really limited range of options. He is powerful yes, but that is one of the few redeeming traits he has.

His recovery is at best, not horrible, but neither is it great. It's straightforward with only 2 methods of recovery (minus jumping, that's a given), SideB and UpB. If Ike gets sent flying low and far, he cannot recover. He can recover easily when up high. But when below the stage he can get edgehogged when the opponent uses proper timing.

Since a large number of his moves are fairly slow, he can be punished for using them too much. Jab, Aerials, and Grabs are just about the only moves Ike can use to rack up damage safely. He lacks the ability to combo people well, and relies upon peoples mistakes to get the kill in on someone. It doesn't help that Ike cannot really set-up for his kills at all.

But he makes up for this with so many killing moves. Utilt, ftilt, smashes, Uair, Fair, Bair. All of which can kill if it lands. But the problem is landing them.

The other issue Ike has is the lack of a projectile and counter against projectiles. If you look at Wario or Marth they place well dispite projectiles, but they can avoid and punish projectile usage easily. Ike has difficult countering projectiles due to having slower moving attacks, and having to relie upon close combat attacks to really stop them.

All of these are limiting factors to Ikes overall total success. But he still plays well enough that he can be a challenge.

 

[Maniclysane]

Ike's recovery is pretty bad. You can hear him saying "Laaawwwwlllll" as he does it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike can actually set up 3 kill moves. The full jab combo is a kill move (and thus is really easy to set up), Jab -> Utilt makes Utilt extremely likely to hit given the tiny window you have to dodge that huge attack, and Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow on light weights kill at like 150% if somehow you managed to live that long. But other then that ya it's hard to set up a kill move. The only one that can "easily" land without setting up is Bair due to it's speed of 8 frames, or Uair thanks to the fact it outlasts ADs.

And by trouble comboing I'm assuming you mean "Outside of Jab combos and the whole Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack combo." Because those are the only combos he has. Everything else hits WAY too hard to combo. lol.

His recovery is like Manic said, pretty bad. Not Link bad, but not much better.

And Crystal, you were short on the kill move list: all but three of his moves are kill moves, and those three moves are throws. XD

Ike should be one spot higher, but that's it. He's usable, but barely. And you have to hope you don't end up against Olimar, Falco, or D3.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ike can actually set up 3 kill moves. The full jab combo is a kill move (and thus is really easy to set up), Jab -> Utilt makes Utilt extremely likely to hit given the tiny window you have to dodge that huge attack, and Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow on light weights kill at like 150% if somehow you managed to live that long. But other then that ya it's hard to set up a kill move. The only one that can "easily" land without setting up is Bair due to it's speed of 8 frames, or Uair thanks to the fact it outlasts ADs.

And by trouble comboing I'm assuming you mean "Outside of Jab combos and the whole Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack combo." Because those are the only combos he has. Everything else hits WAY too hard to combo. lol.

His recovery is like Manic said, pretty bad. Not Link bad, but not much better.

And Crystal, you were short on the kill move list: all but three of his moves are kill moves, and those three moves are throws. XD

Ike should be one spot higher, but that's it. He's usable, but barely. And you have to hope you don't end up against Olimar, Falco, or D3.

For not researching any info on the guy and just reading off my information from experience, I don't think I did too bad at explaning Ike xD

 

[Brinzy]

Only reason Zelda should be E-tier is so she's always allowed in low tier tournaments. It's not like she gives a **** about the rest of D-tier anyway. No, not even PT. Moving her to E-tier basically makes her the best character in low-tier, not just going off of the order of a list here. The only character she remotely loses to is Samus, and that's because zair is just that good. The rest are even or in her favor. Ike has a slight advantage on her, but honestly, that fight can be pretty much dead even as far as I'm concerned... with Zelda lacking a good grab but having nice, quick tools against Ike.

 

[:mad:]

Because...because...because...

DDD HAS TEH PH1RE!

Smooth Criminal

dey are both bloo birds.

so pretty..

Put thme in the same teir.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Can someone explain to me why Ike is D tier? It's not a claim that I think he sucks. But I literally know nothing about him so...

Sluggish attacks, poor recovery and no projectile. Those are the main reasons.

 

[Nestec]

Actually, he doesn't. Looking at the matchup chart, those were the only ones less than 40:60. He suffers to a degree from projectile camping, but not many can actually use it to suck a degree to offset his crazy grab release and OoS stuff and well as strong spacing and surprisingly high agility.

Keep in mind you were only looking at the perspective of the Bowser boards, which is only half the equation. According to the other boards, Bowser has seven match-ups worse than 40-60. Granted some of those might be biased, so that's still about five miserable matchups. And aside from those, almost all of his other ones are slightly disadvantageous. Lmfao, Bowser's got like three advantageous match-ups. And they're all hardly better than even.

Wario doesn't have many people who play to a high level with him, but those that do generally do well, hence it doesn't hinder. There are even less good Bowser players, so with an inferior character, very few are going to get placing at major events.

Kthnx for sharing... lol

On the topic of Wario's grab release stuff, it doesn't punish him because he has to tools to avoid it.

Agreed.

---

Btw, I have a feeling I will get flamed for this, but I'm starting to believe that almost all of D-Tier may be surpassed by a couple E-Tiers. Ike and Bowser are both placing miserably, and Zelda and Ike are very lackluster characters when compared to the likes of Mario and Ness.

PT is the only one I see with a chance of staying in D-Tier... And that's mainly because I don't know **** about him. XD

 

[Flayl]

People who have never played a decent Bowser dicussing he's horrible and giving themselves automatic big advantages in matchup ratios? Well I never.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Ike is a character with a really limited range of options. He is powerful yes, but that is one of the few redeeming traits he has.

His recovery is at best, not horrible, but neither is it great. It's straightforward with only 2 methods of recovery (minus jumping, that's a given), SideB and UpB. If Ike gets sent flying low and far, he cannot recover. He can recover easily when up high. But when below the stage he can get edgehogged when the opponent uses proper timing.

Since a large number of his moves are fairly slow, he can be punished for using them too much. Jab, Aerials, and Grabs are just about the only moves Ike can use to rack up damage safely. He lacks the ability to combo people well, and relies upon peoples mistakes to get the kill in on someone. It doesn't help that Ike cannot really set-up for his kills at all.

But he makes up for this with so many killing moves. Utilt, ftilt, smashes, Uair, Fair, Bair. All of which can kill if it lands. But the problem is landing them.

The other issue Ike has is the lack of a projectile and counter against projectiles. If you look at Wario or Marth they place well dispite projectiles, but they can avoid and punish projectile usage easily. Ike has difficult countering projectiles due to having slower moving attacks, and having to relie upon close combat attacks to really stop them.

All of these are limiting factors to Ikes overall total success. But he still plays well enough that he can be a challenge.

Not to mention his aerials not only have some long attack animations, they also have some landing animation as well...Ike's Bair can be tricky to land due to its speed and possibly the angle of his sword/hitbox.

Still though, good Ike's are generally very fun to fight.