The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Chuee]

...

Wow, crazy mistype on my part.

I meant PK fire, I must've REALLY zoned out there, Lucas' fair never came up, we were comparing PK fire to fair as spacers.

but lucas' PKF is still hard to punish.

 

[Tyr_03]

Ness is better than Lucas.

 

[Chuee]

Ness is better than Lucas.

Not by a whole lot though.
Both of them are quite opposite of each other.

 

[Frown]

Not by a whole lot though.
Both of them are quite opposite of each other.

Short ranged light characters with lots of projectiles?

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Intresting fact, Ness and Lucas are medium weight.

Unless they are lying to me.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Intresting fact, Ness and Lucas are medium weight.

Unless they are lying to me.

Another interesting fact, Captain Falcon survives Snake's UTilt longer than Bowser.

 

[noahbaby94]

Another interesting fact, Captain Falcon survives Snake's UTilt longer than Bowser.

How?
10hows

 

[Xebenkeck]

^^^ that is because having a fast, fast-fall, is better than weight, when trying to survive from dying off the top.

And chu, if your going to put lucas'ftilt in that list of "good" moves, you might as well put ness' aswell. Its just as useful.

 

[Kinzer]

Anybody want to talk about Luigi?

Weegee is a beast when he is, though like many other characters suffer hard from counters.

How?
10hows

Falcon is manly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

but lucas' PKF is still hard to punish.

Powershield->anything, it's also easy to PS. It's pretty easy to punish IMO.

^^^ that is because having a fast, fast-fall

This is brawl, no such thing.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Powershield->anything, it's also easy to PS. It's pretty easy to punish IMO.

Unexpected > powershield > anything.

I don't know about Lucas, but I'm pretty sure that I have been at max distance for Ness's PK Fire with Zelda, reacted to the start up, evaded the attack, and lightning kicked. I do this fairly consistently... with Zelda. It's seriously that punishable on the ground. It should be used defensively unless your opponent is in lag and can't punish it like that.

Which relates back to what I was being reserved about before. PK fire is decent spacing tool that has it's uses, but it's not the best. Generally, if you know an attack is coming, and you start charging after your opponent you can pretty much counter it. That usually beats out most spacing methods easily. But again, if you aren't predicting it, or see it coming, than it's a useful spacing tool as it can hit people at a distance.

For Lucas, I believe he can perform his PK fire from a SH so that it repels him backwards a bit. So in Lucas's case, if started at a distance and ends at a distance it's a useful spacing method.

 

[SuSa]

Snake's Utilt > Lucas's Pk Fire

It triggers it, and we don't get hit, and it cancels our Utilt meaning we can follow up with anything. Including ftilt. Which is better then our OoS options.

EAT THAT.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Snake's Utilt > Lucas's Pk Fire

It triggers it, and we don't get hit, and it cancels our Utilt meaning we can follow up with anything. Including ftilt. Which is better then our OoS options.

EAT THAT.

Isn't FTilt an OoS option?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Isn't FTilt an OoS option?

Yes, but isn't shield dropping 7 frames? So if Utilt cancels the PK fire, then lucas is still in is ending lag, and we can react 7 frames faster than before. I think that is what SuSa was getting at.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Unexpected > powershield > anything.

PK fire is only gonna be unexpected to a complete nub, like all projectiles it takes a LONG time to come out, and that gives use plenty of time to react to it by shielding at the right time.

Only if you refuse to believe that opponent used pk fire for (I think) half a second, you've gotta be amazingly bad at smash.


If you thought I was saying "powershield is greater then anything"...


It was "Powershield->anything" not "Powershield>anything"

"->" is an arrow, it means "to" as in "powershield to anything" which is written as "Powershield->anything".

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, but isn't shield dropping 7 frames? So if Utilt cancels the PK fire, then lucas is still in is ending lag, and we can react 7 frames faster than before. I think that is what SuSa was getting at.

I find that very funny. SuSa doesn't consider Snake's FTilt (4 frames) an OoS option, and yet I remember him calling Ganon's jab (9 frames) one.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I find that very funny. SuSa doesn't consider Snake's FTilt (4 frames) an OoS option, and yet I remember him calling Ganon's jab (9 frames) one.

But snake has uptilt, he has no reason to use ftilt.

Ganon on the other hand... well that's the closest thing to an OOS option he has.

 

[Kinzer]

Yes, it takes 7 frames to drop a shield.

2 frames if you powershield though.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol you guys know you can space PK Fire right?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

But snake has uptilt, he has no reason to use uptilt.

Ganon on the other hand... well that's the closest thing to an OOS option he has.

That may be true, but that still isn't a reason to call it an OoS option. Ganon's grab is his only OoS option, since it doesn't get shied drop lag, and 7 frames start-up isn't that bad. Though, It's too bad it has the worst range amongst all other grabs.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That may be true, but that still isn't a reason to call is an OoS option. Ganon's grab is his only OoS option, since it doesn't get shied drop lag, and 7 frames start-up isn't that bad. Though, It's too bad it has the worst range amongst all other grabs.

What were the frames of ganon's jumping animation? Might his Nair, Bair or Uair be a somewhat decent option apart from the jab and grab? Or are his aerials just as slow as his other attacks?

 

[SuSa]

The problem with OoS ftilt is spacing. It won't hit a properly spaced PK Fire (the only time your opponent should be using it is when spaced well anyways) but if you utilt, you can still punish because there is less lag for you AFAIK*.... it seems be sight, and since I've been able to punish Lucas for doing so. The thing is for Lucas's PK Fire to not hit Snake, you need freakishly good timing... so more often then not I'd like to powershield. I was sort of joking about the up tilt thing... sorta. I do use it, but I do not prefer it.

*Needs to be frame tested, which is what I'm going to be doing very, very soon... once my friend drops off my Wiimote I left at his house. -_-

 

[aeghrur]

That may be true, but that still isn't a reason to call is an OoS option. Ganon's grab is his only OoS option, since it doesn't get shied drop lag, and 7 frames start-up isn't that bad. Though, It's too bad it has the worst range amongst all other grabs.

I thought Sonic had the worst grab range. =/

 

[Chuee]

Hey guys, try to punish a bsticked PKF. Good freaking luck.

EDIT:

But snake has uptilt, he has no reason to use uptilt.

lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

I thought Sonic had the worst grab range. =/

Its actually the IC's. Sonic's grab range is poor but not the worst.

 

[Kinzer]

If you want to be specific Sonic has the 31st best grab-range in the game.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you want to be specific Sonic has the 31st best grab-range in the game.

To save me a lot of time and a lot of pointless searching, what is the link to your source of information on grab ranges?

 

[Kinzer]

I don't think I'll be able to save you that trouble, because whenever I try and search to retrieve that thread that had that information, I get this blank page:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4388/loadingfailure.jpg

 

[justaway12]

Well, to save everyone the trouble, here it is:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7521393#post7521393

Tether Grabs (Grabs disjointed from the character)
1.Olimars Blue Pikmin 10.1
2.Olimars White Pikmin 10.0
3.ZSS 9.75
Olimars Red Pikmin 9.75
5.Olimars Yellow Pikmin 9.6
6.Samus 9.2- 4 (I couldnt really tell so I took the range)
7.Link 8.25
8. Olimars Purple Pikmin 7.5
9. Lucas 7.25
10. Toon Link 7
11. Yoshi 6.75
12. Ivysaur 6.1

Non-tether grabs
*Note: None of these characters grabs were longer than the tether-grabbers although DDD came very close to surpassing Ivysaur.

13. DDD 6
14.Charzard 5.5
15. Zelda 5.3
16. Donkey Kong 5.1
17. Squirtle 5
18. Marth 4.75
Diddy 4.75
Snake 4.75
21. Kirby 4.5
ROB 4.5
23. Peach 4.25
Fox 4.25
Falco 4.25
Ness 4.25
27. Wario 4.1
28.Bowser 4
Pit 4
MK 4
Jigglypuff 4
Ike 4
Sonic 4
34. Pika 3.9
Sheik 3.9
36. Lucario 3.75
37.Wolf 3.5
ICs 3.5
Mario 3.5
Luigi 3.5
G&W 3.5
42. Captain Falcon 3.25
43. Ganon 2.75

Ganon's is the worst. This is where I got my statistics, hope it helps.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh?

Jigglypuff has a stupid long grab range, to compare her to Sonic's is just crazy.

I find that hard to believe, but if that IS right, then I can't really argue...

Is there no other resource?

Thank you for going through the trouble though.

 

[justaway12]

I do think it's accurate, but just in case I'm going to look for others.

Edit: Can't search for some reason, unless someone else posts somthing else up, that's all you have

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its acurate, its because sonic's grab extends a little further than it appears.

 

[Kinzer]

Edit: Can't search for some reason, unless someone else posts something else up, that's all you have

Glad to see I'm not the only one having problems.

Its accurate, its because Sonic's grab extends a little further than it appears.

Okay then, good to know.

Even if I was a little bit off, I was right when I said he was the 31st best grab-range... since he ties with a buncha other chars. :D

 

[Yonder]

Weegee is a beast when he is, though like many other characters suffer hard from counters.

Yep, that's true. I say he's upper mid at best. He's an above average mid tier. I sorta though he could be dead bottom of the high, but the more I learn about him lately, the more I learn it isn't happening

 

[adumbrodeus]

That may be true, but that still isn't a reason to call is an OoS option. Ganon's grab is his only OoS option, since it doesn't get shied drop lag, and 7 frames start-up isn't that bad. Though, It's too bad it has the worst range amongst all other grabs.

Marth's F-smash is an OOS option, it's just not a particularly good one.

Realistically, because Brawl offers so little shield stun, 17 frames DOES punish a lot of stuff, so it is an OOS option. Snake just has better.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This game is sad *nod nod*

 

[thanortinzak]

Dedede should be higher.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Dedede should be higher.

Wh y?

 

[thanortinzak]

Wh y?

Chaingrab, good projectile (useful for blocking other projectiles, plus Gordos can KO), great killing power, strong, amazing Up-tilt and Back-Air (arguably the best in the air), furthest reaching f-tilt in the game, speedy D-tilt, great aerials, most damaging grabs in the game.

I don't mean he's better than Metaknight, I'm just saying he should be like one or two spots higher.

 

[:mad:]

Chaingrab, good projectile (useful for blocking other projectiles, plus Gordos can KO), great killing power, strong, amazing Up-tilt and Back-Air (arguably the best in the air), furthest reaching f-tilt in the game, speedy D-tilt, great aerials, most damaging grabs in the game.

I don't mean he's better than Metaknight, I'm just saying he should be like one or two spots higher.

He was originally third.

He's in S Tier. You can't get much higher than that.