The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[tocador]

That reminds me, I was like O_O when I first discovered the spiking property of Ganon's downB.

/hardly relevant whatsoever

Yeah, discovering it is always awsome :B.

 

[Scott!]

Yeah, discovering it is always awsome :B.

Unless your first experience with it is on the receiving end. That's how I was introduced to it, and I was pretty much O_O.

 

[Gindler]

Theres a video on the net somewhere of a Sonic surviving ness' dair offstage at about 120%, thanks to the spring

Two characters that always laugh at spikes

Sonic and ROB

I spiked rob with ness at 130% and he just flew back up, he ran out of gas but I was still suprised. Later I spiked ROB at 80 with yoshi's POS spike and he died. Ness does have a weird spike (since I've killed snakes at 20%). Ness must have weird meteor cancel timing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

nesss f throw doesnt get weaker with damage, and im fairly sure that his dair doesnt either, its just that both moves have craptastic scaling. So while his f throw will send surprisingly far at low percents, at high percents its sends farther, just not as much farther as you would expect.

I BELIEVE its the same with his dair, where it doesnt get weaker with damage, it just doesnt get THAT much stronger

 

[JayBee]

Theres a video on the net somewhere of a Sonic surviving ness' dair offstage at about 120%, thanks to the spring

was that one of mines? i know there is a vid of me teching a PKT2 on BF. so sexy.

 

[Nitrix]

I don't know how any attentive smasher could ever get spiked by Ness's D-Air.

PK fire is crap. Don't joke like that.

I think Lucas's PK Fire is okay. Sure its not fantastic but it can be used to space and pressure more effectively than Ness's.

Can Ness's PK Fire be DI'd easily?

 

[ShadowLink84]

was that one of mines? i know there is a vid of me teching a PKT2 on BF. so sexy.

Son I warlock punch for an edge guard. Get at me

 

[JayBee]

Son I warlock punch for an edge guard. Get at me

lol you shall be getten.
I dont lose to ganons.
i dont lose to crap.


jk btw

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol you shall be getten.
I dont lose to ganons.
i dont lose to crap.


jk btw

Oh word? Ok lets go, wifi, 3 stock, items, my Ganny vs your MK. I am going to win.

 

[JayBee]

Ill help you out son.

I'll be sonic, so you can dtilt all my approaches.
And I'll use a wiimote.
Auto ban Yoshis.
I get no counterpicks.
And you can you your sword.
What? you mean you can't? It's all for show?
ggs.


+30 OD points for Kojin.
-10 Steak for Shadowlink.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ill help you out son.

I'll be sonic, so you can dtilt all my approaches.
And I'll use a wiimote.
Auto ban Yoshis.
I get no counterpicks.
And you can you your sword.
What? you mean you can't? It's all for show?
ggs.


+30 OD points for Kojin.
-10 Steak for Shadowlink.

I dont need my sword. All I need to do is jab and that will stop everything you do.
Cause Sonic sucks, simple as that m'boy.

Get at my Ganon

 

[hotgarbage]

4. Lucas has PKF which spaces a lot better than ness' fair.

wat

2. Ness' uair kills earlier but not by that much.

Let's compare then. The earliest kill percent on Mario from the top platform on battlefield with no DI in training mode:
Ness: 104%
Lucas: 132%

...that's clearly a significant difference.


Now lets look at the earliest kill percent with proper DI and momentum canceling for good measure:
Ness: 115%
Lucas: 157%

Note how the difference between the two becomes even more pronounced with proper DI. A result of Lucas' uair's crummy launch angle.

So yeah; you don't know what you're talking about here. I also don't understand your constant assertion that Lucas' uair is a good kill move. It's not. You're a Lucas main and you don't realize this?

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, nair is in no way a reliable kill move for ness.
1. Good luck getting someone downwards offstage at 5%.

So?

It works ABOVE that percentage, but it can still kill at that percentage, it's definately an advantage.

2. Ness' uair kills earlier but not by that much.

lolwut

Crummy launch angle means that it kills horribly, especially with DI and momentium canceling.

3. Ness' dair is not a good jab lock setup.

So?

The dair's are useful for different things, ness doesn't have a better dair but he has a better MOVESET.

4. Lucas has PKF which spaces a lot better than ness' fair.

Lolwut

Ness' fair is an amazing spacing move with a good hitbox, little landing lag and great priority,

Lucas' fair has... none of the above. It sucks.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Wario has more balanced matchups overall, he has no real bad matchup. Dedede's matchups against those he can't chain grab are bad overall. But both have the best heavyweight recovery.

Not necessarily. Certain criteria has to be met for the opponent to really give DDD a hard time.

As you read these matchup summaries, you may notice several characteristics that characters with an advantage against King Dedede have. These vary from character to character, but the three biggest trends are:

* Cannot be chaingrabbed
* Can outcamp Dedede
* Can get a somewhat significant amount of free, uninterrupted damage on Dedede (via chaingrabs, locks, etc.)

Falco, Pikachu, and Ice Climber's met all three with flying colors. Olimar does pretty good at this as well.

But with characters like Fox, Zelda, Sheik-- that cant be chain grabbed they all still have good combing options/multi hit moves to use on DDD.

 

[Nestec]

Lucas PKFire is decent. It's definitely not bad, but to compare it to Ness' Fair is ridiculous.

 

[Brinzy]

iirc, Ness's throws work in reverse. At lower percents, Fthrow goes farther, much farther. It starts to weaken, regardless of whether or not you use it.

Is this true? Because when I put someone at 999% in training mode and F-throw, they most certainly go farther (but it isn't a guaranteed KO).

 

[ShadowLink84]

It i because the growth is extremely small for his Fthrow.
Same with his Dair. The growth isnt very large.

 

[Brinzy]

Well I figured that much. I just wasn't sure if there was like... some odd % like 150 when F-throw actually had poorer knockback.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Well I figured that much. I just wasn't sure if there was like... some odd % like 150 when F-throw actually had poorer knockback.

That would be so bad yet hilarious if that were true. Also, BThrow has next to no knockback at 0%, but has a high knockback growth.

Oh, and on the topic of Ness vs Lucas, Lucas' PK Fire and Ness' Fair aren't comparable. They're far too different. It's like comparing ZSS' jab to Bowser's FSmash.

 

[Gindler]

I don't know how any attentive smasher could ever get spiked by Ness's D-Air.

What?

Snake loves Spikes while recovering.

I've spiked MK out of shuttle loop with ness' Dair.

Bait an airdodge and spike.

Someone is out of jumps and if they airdodge they'll die anyway so they how the spike sourspots............................

Saying ness should never get a spike is just ridiculous.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That would be so bad yet hilarious if that were true. Also, BThrow has next to no knockback at 0%, but has a high knockback growth.

Oh, and on the topic of Ness vs Lucas, Lucas' PK Fire and Ness' Fair aren't comparable. They're far too different. It's like comparing ZSS' jab to Bowser's FSmash.

They are very comparable because their purposes are the same. To space the opponent.
ZSS' jab isnot comparable to Bowser's Fsmash since one is to kill, the other is slap the opponent during a neutral position.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Fair enough I guess. Though I fail to see how anyone could argue that PK Fire is better at spacing. It's slower, laggier, does less damage and is easier to avoid.

 

[Kewkky]

Fair enough I guess. Though I fail to see how anyone could argue that PK Fire is better at spacing. It's slower, laggier, does less damage and is easier to avoid.

... And you powershield and it disappears. Just run in, ps and punish... If they shield, grab. If they don't shield, attack. If they spotdodge, wait it out and grab.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Fair enough I guess. Though I fail to see how anyone could argue that PK Fire is better at spacing. It's slower, laggier, does less damage and is easier to avoid.

PK fire for both of the earthlings is good spacing. Dispite the start-up lag on it and ending lag, it also has good range. Plus, if used after another move it's a good spacing tool. For example, Ness SH Fairs the opponent, pulls away then proceeds to PK fire. If it misses you are more than likely a good distance away still, if it hits than ness can charge in a hit the opponent.

 

[kismet2]

Waba Game Monthly
36 enttrants, $10 entry fee
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206029

1) Kismet2 (Falco)
2) Player 1 (Diddy Kong)
3) Lambchops (Snake)
4) Will_ (Donkey Kong/Metaknight)
5) Rayku (Lucario)
5) Scatt (Snake)
7) Dynomite (Wario/Marth)
7) GTR (Snake)

 

[Matador]

Wrong thread Kismet? lol

 

[Frown]

Fair enough I guess.

Am I the only one who thinks this is funny?

 

[Matador]

Am I the only one who thinks this is funny?

The pun made me lol outloud, but I was too embarrassed to voice it.

You're not alone tho

 

[tocador]

I rofled :B.

IRL.

 

[.Marik]

Look at this huge Ness vs. Lucas debate going on...

I have a better idea.

FOW *****.

Discuss.

 

[Chuee]

So?

It works ABOVE that percentage, but it can still kill at that percentage, it's definately an advantage.

My point is that most of the time your not going to get a kill with nair because
1. Kills late
2. It could be stale since Ness' use nair a lot

So?

The dair's are useful for different things, ness doesn't have a better dair but he has a better MOVESET.

Best moves of each character
Ness: Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair, Uair, grab, jab, PKF, PKT
Lucas: Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair, tether, jab, ftilt, utilt, PKF, PKT

Lolwut

Ness' fair is an amazing spacing move with a good hitbox, little landing lag and great priority,

Lucas' fair has... none of the above. It sucks.

Sir, you obviously don't know about lucas if you think his fair is that bad.
His Fair can space, has a good hitbox, & can be autocancelled.
It may not have good priority but it can combo into a number of lucas' ground options while Ness' can only combo into jab.

wat
Let's compare then. The earliest kill percent on Mario from the top platform on battlefield with no DI in training mode:
Ness: 104%
Lucas: 132%

...that's clearly a significant difference.


Now lets look at the earliest kill percent with proper DI and momentum canceling for good measure:
Ness: 115%
Lucas: 157%

Note how the difference between the two becomes even more pronounced with proper DI. A result of Lucas' uair's crummy launch angle.

So yeah; you don't know what you're talking about here. I also don't understand your constant assertion that Lucas' uair is a good kill move. It's not. You're a Lucas main and you don't realize this?

K ill give you that, but I never said his Uair was a good kill move. I meant it's good for kills if your opponent in its kill range since its faster than lucas' best kill moves and has decent priority.

 

[.Marik]

^ On second thought, Lucas Vs. Ness is probably going to continue...

:D

Anybody want to talk about Yoshi or Luigi?

 

[Nanaki]

Luigi is so **** against noobish people. As competition gets better, his lack of options kinda holds him back, though. If he had Mario's fireball or cape he'd be ridiculous.

I'd say his tier list position is good where it is.

 

[kismet2]

Wrong thread Kismet? lol

Yeah sorry about that, I'm a little tired.

 

[Chuee]

^ On second thought, Lucas Vs. Ness is probably going to continue...

:D

Anybody want to talk about Yoshi or Luigi?

Ok, lets talk about weegee

 

[Brinzy]

PK fire for both of the earthlings is good spacing. Dispite the start-up lag on it and ending lag, it also has good range. Plus, if used after another move it's a good spacing tool. For example, Ness SH Fairs the opponent, pulls away then proceeds to PK fire. If it misses you are more than likely a good distance away still, if it hits than ness can charge in a hit the opponent.

I don't know about Lucas, but I'm pretty sure that I have been at max distance for Ness's PK Fire with Zelda, reacted to the start up, evaded the attack, and lightning kicked. I do this fairly consistently... with Zelda. It's seriously that punishable on the ground. It should be used defensively unless your opponent is in lag and can't punish it like that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

My point is that most of the time your not going to get a kill with nair because
1. Kills late
2. It could be stale since Ness' use nair a lot

Dair... DAIR

Best moves of each character
Ness: Fair, Nair, Bair, Dair, Uair, grab, jab, PKF, PKT
Lucas: Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair, tether, jab, ftilt, utilt, PKF, PKT

Overall, they may both have good moves, but Ness' function more synergistically.

Again, ness has a spacer, ways to rack, and kill moves. Lucas is missing the all-important ability to kill, so Ness' moveset is inferior.

Sir, you obviously don't know about lucas if you think his fair is that bad.
His Fair can space, has a good hitbox, & can be autocancelled.
It may not have good priority but it can combo into a number of lucas' ground options while Ness' can only combo into jab.

...

Wow, crazy mistype on my part.

I meant PK fire, I must've REALLY zoned out there, Lucas' fair never came up, we were comparing PK fire to fair as spacers.

K ill give you that, but I never said his Uair was a good kill move. I meant it's good for kills if your opponent in its kill range since its faster than lucas' best kill moves and has decent priority.

Ok, but so what?

 

[DanGR]

Lucas doesn't have a problem killing. Dair is a good setup for a dtilt lock from about 90-100% onwards if it's undiminished- about 110-120 if it is diminished. Fsmash kills ridiculously low. It's fast enough and has enough range to be usable. (Imo, in top 3 of all fsmashes) Backthrow kills decently for a throw if you can get a grab in. His edgeguarding is pretty good as well.

 

[.Marik]

Luigi is so **** against noobish people. As competition gets better, his lack of options kinda holds him back, though. If he had Mario's fireball or cape he'd be ridiculous.

Yeah, 10 aerials after the other and a Jab>UpB.

But, I also agree with the second part of your sentence. As competition gets harder, better characters are often used, and Luigi gets ***** by Meta Knight and Marth. Dedede and Snake give him problems too, but he does quite well against Diddy Kong and most characters ranked lower than said character.

I'd say his tier list position is good where it is.

Same.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lucas doesn't have a problem killing. Dair is a good setup for a dtilt lock from about 90-100% onwards if it's undiminished- about 110-120 if it is diminished. Fsmash kills ridiculously low. It's fast enough and has enough range to be usable. (Imo, in top 3 of all fsmashes) Backthrow kills decently for a throw if you can get a grab in. His edgeguarding is pretty good as well.

Reletively speaking.

Though, honestly, this discussion is probably better put into match-ups, because that's what really defines characters position, attributes in the aether don't tell much.