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He's a good character, that's universally accepted. The thing is, everyone that's above him is better than he is. King Dedede gets hard countered by a handful of characters, for example Falco and Ice Climbers, and some of these characters such as Falco and Pikachu are fairly prominent in tournaments, thus holding DDD back slightly.
Yeah..... I have trouble believing that Peach has longer grab range than Wario myself...... I wonder how exactly this data was collected.
If i beleive it was tested by the numers of "block-stuffs" the grab range reached. I dont know the block stuff size, but i think it had something to do with mario :D.
Peach has a good grab. Well, except her pivot grab, that's pretty crap...
Some people might not find it accurate but that's the only one I could unfortunatly
.Personally I don't think it's that bad.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236133 Ice Climbers have the 6th worst, and Ganon has the worst.
So his best OoS methods are Grab > SH Uair > Jab?
Wait, that's only true if the UAir comes out right away, which it doesn't. UAir comes out at 7 frame while in the air, and 14 frames from the ground. Unless I'm misunderstanding this. Do jumps avoid shield-drop lag?
Yes; jump OoS instead of shield-drop > jump. Altho note that the frame after the frame you jump... all button-input is ignored. You can call it a frame of "jump-lag". Then you can use an aerial. iirc....
Yep I noticed earlier and forgot to change my post >.<
HA, I know right? Yoshi's still in the wrong tier.
Lol. Wrong tier list thread Jona.
Personal experience obviously
. I've always thought of Peach having "good" grab range and of Wario having "very good" grab range. Hm, there is a slight complication with using the lines on the blocks to measure distance. The lines are on a different plane on the z-axis than the characters, so as the camera angle changes the perceived relation between the character and the line will change. It doesn't sound like he accounted for this.... but perhaps he did.
This could be a bit problematic as well. For one Mario moves around a lot during his idle animation. Due to Brawl's "dynamic" hurtboxes this means that his hurtbox is moving around as well, which could skew results. If a good deal of trials were done with each grab this most probably wouldn't be a crippling issue however.
Roh-ruh. This is a big problem. "Range" is measured from the furthest reaching hurtbox of the character in idle animation before the attack to the furthest reaching hitbox of the attack during the attack. It isn't measured from a completely arbitrary point like someone's "arm". Because of this this data doesn't even truly represent the range of the grabs. It represents the range they have when measured from an arbitrary point.
hm. There are some big differences between this list and the other one. This guy didn't post his method for getting that information either :/.
Though, in this list, you could tell that it's more accurate than the other. It's easy to realize that Ganon, and Falcon have little-to-almost none range on their grabs. If I recall, the other list had Ganon way up in the middle.Personal experience obviously
...I wouldn't come close to describing her grab range as "broken" though. Maybe if you just look at the animation yeah, but the actual grab hitbox falls a bit short of it.
Back to Wario's grab. I did some brief testing and it beats out Peach's, Falco's, Ness', Snake's, and ties/barely loses to Kirby's..... all of which are above Wario on the list. Now this isn't the best way to test raw grab range, as character's differing hurtboxes come into play too much here, but clearly something is wrong with this data.
let's look at the method he used to get this data.....
Hm, there is a slight complication with using the lines on the blocks to measure distance. The lines are on a different plane on the z-axis than the characters, so as the camera angle changes the perceived relation between the character and the line will change. It doesn't sound like he accounted for this.... but perhaps he did.
There's also the problem of judging distance just by looking at something, which will always inject human error into the process. A (hopefully) minor issue, but still an issue nonetheless.
This could be a bit problematic as well. For one Mario moves around a lot during his idle animation. Due to Brawl's "dynamic" hurtboxes this means that his hurtbox is moving around as well, which could skew results. If a good deal of trials were done with each grab this most probably wouldn't be a crippling issue however.
A more pressing issue is Mario's shape. Do his arms have hurtboxes? If so that means that there will be a bias toward grabs that hit mid, because grabs of that height will contact the hurtbox of his arms while grabs that hit high will go over it. If his arms don't have hurtboxes then the bias would be slightly toward grabs that hit high due to his nose sticking out further than the rest of his body.
Mario isn't really a good test subject for this. Ideally you would want someone who doesn't move around a lot and who has a very linear hurtbox. Zelda immediately comes to mind as a possible candidate.
Roh-ruh. This is a big problem. "Range" is measured from the furthest reaching hurtbox of the character in idle animation before the attack to the furthest reaching hitbox of the attack during the attack. It isn't measured from a completely arbitrary point like someone's "arm". Because of this this data doesn't even truly represent the range of the grabs. It represents the range they have when measured from an arbitrary point.
So yeah. There are quite a few problems with the testing methods this guy used :X. Testing like this would be good enough to get a general idea of grab range.... but nothing incredibly specific. As such I really wouldn't give too much heed to it.
hm. There are some big differences between this list and the other one. This guy didn't post his method for getting that information either :/.
I think technically she's placed at the position of whichever is highest... which is inaccurate, because Zelda/Sheik has better match-ups then either alone.
Zelda is in the correct tier (top of bottom, bottom of mid) but could indeed drop a place or two. Ike isn't going anywhere. Bowser is going up if anywhere, and I think the only thing holding him back is a lack of skilled players. PT has some serious potential to go up. Nobody in C is likely to drop a tier.
That's called pivot grabbing. And Peach's pivot grab is pretty crap tbh; it takes THIRTEEN frames for the grab hitbox to appear. Pros can spotdodge that on reaction.
It's not made for that. Pivot grab is for grabbing out of airdodges and grabbing out of aerials like Wario's Dair. Peach can easily pivot grab dair because of her range.
I'm not sure about that. We have been told time and time again that tournament placings don't determine who places where in the tier list. If anything, FOW will be proof that skill is greater than the tier list. Or at the very least that character match-up experience plays a huge part in how well one does. You see FOW win sets against certain characters people use, then simply get mauled by others by losing both matches.
I'm eager to find out what DOES determine placings on the tier list...
I've been told that Mario's only low due to poor tournament results. Which wouldn't make much sense if what Crystal says is true.
