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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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Nestec

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@ Flayl

Lol, even if that's the case, he still has next to no considerably advantageous match-ups.

I'm not gonna lie, from what I've heard/read, Bowser sounds like a pretty solid character. But it hasn't exactly been proven that he does not have crappy match-ups.
 

gm jack

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And Zelda can't "out camp" anyone. :laugh:
Actually, she can outcamp DDD, hence why she has anything from a slight to solid advantage against him. I just can't see Mario and Ness being better than her. Yoshi maybe, but that may stem from the last Yoshi I played setting up two footstool gimps on my Sheik in one match... Saying that, I know Mario's cape has some really weird properties, so that could cause him to move up should some really useful applications be found in addition to what they already have.

As for Ike, I think that, like Zelda, while he has limited tools, what he does have is good enough to keep his position.
 

Man of Popsicle

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People who have never played a decent Bowser dicussing he's horrible and giving themselves automatic big advantages in matchup ratios? Well I never.
If DiasFlac is a good bowser, and the match-up ratios I have are correct, I would assume Bowser does not belong in D Tier.
 
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I would like to know why Zelda would have an advantage on DDD.
I am quite serious.
For one, DDD cannot properly CG Zelda, he can only tech chase her. That right there limits a good size advantage that DDD has on most characters.

If you throw in the fact that Zelda has a solid defence game and DDD has a rather poor offensive game I can see how Zelda can win if she isn't forced to advance. So if Zelda does indeed outcamp DDD, you have an advantage to Zelda.
 

gm jack

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Waddle Dees do not stop Din's Fire, and Din's deals considerably more damage (unless it is a Gordo). If Zelda can get some distance and direct the Din's to his feet, he cannot both throw and not take damage if the Zelda spaces right.
 
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Waddle Dees do not stop Din's Fire, and Din's deals considerably more damage (unless it is a Gordo). If Zelda can get some distance and direct the Din's to his feet, he cannot both throw and not take damage if the Zelda spaces right.
I just see of the camping as whoever ends up spamming more and with greater accuracy would win out xD Dins fire interrupts DDD, and Deedledees mess up dins fire.
 

Flayl

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In terms of tier list though there is no reason to have them seperated. We're discussing the height of the metagame, Zelda players should be adept at Sheik and switch against bad matchups at will.

Have them seperated for matchup discussions, but not when measuring their potential.
 

TriforceMaster5282

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In terms of tier list though there is no reason to have them seperated. We're discussing the height of the metagame, Zelda players should be adept at Sheik and switch against bad matchups at will.

Have them seperated for matchup discussions, but not when measuring their potential.
I agree. it doesnt make sense to have the both of them seperated because any good zelda/sheik player uses both as well as they use the other.
 

BRoomer
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zelda is horrible I don't use her unless I want to refresh sheik's moves. lol.

Zelda should be E-teir. She won't be though as long as people keep being really agressive against her. She does have a strong defensive game.

Despite this I think characters that can transform should be counted as one character. because by picking one you have access to both.
 

SuSa

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If you start with Samus, you can switch to Zamus. But not again.

Sheik/Zelda can play an entire game without the other -- that is what I feel counts them as two separate characters compared to PT who is FORCED to switch.
 

Flayl

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I think Samus should be S tier. S standing for Samus, and she'd be in her own tier below Ganondorf.
 

Brinzy

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Shadowlink, my electricity went out, so this is kinda late...

- She forces him to approach. That means she's not approaching as much, if at all. That means she has gotten rid of one of her worst weaknesses.

- She kills him at around the same %s he kills her. That's saying something. It also bears noting that, being a large and slow target, he's not getting out of the Usmash. If he gets out of the Fsmash, he's punishable long enough to be hit by something else. This goes for everyone actually, but I emphasize it here because Zelda does not care about the woes of Fsmash and sometimes Usmash.

- Unless she's knocked away or doesn't know what she's doing, Zelda should be punishing DDD's recovery all the time with Usmash/uair/edgehogging or Din's if she can't reach him for some reason. This is actually a fact of the match-up and not just "theory." Zelda's recovery is exploitable as well, but she has a better chance at getting past DDD (especially on Battlefield and similar stages) than DDD does against her.

- I don't know DDDs true combos, but Zelda has dtilt -> bair on a trip, dtilt - > fair on a trip (in case bair is stale), the above /without a trip if you have the proper frame advantage on him (which stacks up perfectly when a fresh bair will kill), and the usual low % stuff. This means that Zelda has a setup to kill him at 60-80%, depending on stage positioning. This isn't a "rare" thing to do, either. It's very reliable.

- She beats his dair if she can react to it at all times. In fact, for the most part, she can always challenge him in the air and trade or win. The only time she can't do that is against his uair with her dair. Now, you may think that talking about what beats what isn't too important, but when Zelda's aerial game of all characters gives some other characters serious woes, what you end up with is an interesting situation. This, combined with being able to force an approach, means that you can indeed keep Zelda in an advantageous position for the whole match.

- There's the other thing that Zelda doesn't get chaingrabbed. Yes yes, he can do other stuff, but getting rid of one thing of his >>> nothing.


There are plenty of videos of this match-up on the Internet. For the most part, this is how a lot of them go:

- Zelda harasses with Din's, sometimes taking a little damage, sometimes not
- Zelda waits for the inevitable ftilt because that's all he can do... that or she can just wear his shield down and get an easy poke thanks to him being so big
- Zelda gets a lot of damage in
- Someone gets knocked away, and it repeats again as necessary depending on the player
- Stock either ends below 100% because lightning kicks are ridiculously easy to land on him, or it ends below 150% because the DDD is doing his best to not get hit by them, even though it's still easy to get shieldstabs on him


Obviously this isn't how it goes for every single stock, but during all of this, DDD has to play his typical bair/grab game because Zelda can scrap the rest of his stuff with Din's or ridiculously strong aerials. Being slower than Zelda in everythign but falling speed doesn't help. The match-up is at least 6:4 in her favor. If more Zeldas start implementing their guaranteed lightning kick setups and if more Zeldas played a super campy game for once (since she can't out camp most of anything), the match-up is a lot worse.
 

JayBee

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In terms of tier list though there is no reason to have them seperated. We're discussing the height of the metagame, Zelda players should be adept at Sheik and switch against bad matchups at will.

Have them seperated for matchup discussions, but not when measuring their potential.
if you want to do zelda/shiek, then zelda , then sheik separate, that's not a problem. however, its not totally fair to force tier list discussions as if you are fighting them both at once. Also, people have the option of never transforming, which limits the legitamacy of this argument. I also feel there is no way to properly evaluate them in total, if we don't consider them as separate optional characters primarily. Lastly, Being a great zelda player doesn't mean being a great shiek, and vice versa. Discussions get rather muddy whenever people want to throw out the "shiek makes up for zelda's flaws" phrase from what i have seen in the sonic boards for example, while at the same time we forget that the best this combo can do anyway, is try to vie for lower mid tier status.

especially when the "true potential" of either character is at the moment not fully realized. it just seems to me that you make it harder to pinpoint either character's potential when you are concerned with Down B as the primary argument.

that's how i feel about it anyways.
 

-=Untamed-Beast=-

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if you want to do zelda/shiek, then zelda , then sheik separate, that's not a problem. however, its not totally fair to force tier list discussions as if you are fighting them both at once. Also, people have the option of never transforming, which limits the legitamacy of this argument. I also feel there is no way to properly evaluate them in total, if we don't consider them as separate optional characters primarily. Lastly, Being a great zelda player doesn't mean being a great shiek, and vice versa. Discussions get rather muddy whenever people want to throw out the "shiek makes up for zelda's flaws" phrase from what i have seen in the sonic boards for example, while at the same time we forget that the best this combo can do anyway, is try to vie for lower mid tier status.

especially when the "true potential" of either character is at the moment not fully realized. it just seems to me that you make it harder to pinpoint either character's potential when you are concerned with Down B as the primary argument.

that's how i feel about it anyways.
:crazy:

9001char
 

Morrigan

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It's a pity they didn't program DownB to allow an insta-transformation between Sheik and Zelda; it would have given the character combo more dynamism and people would probably rely more on the switching rather than staying as one character or getting the opponent to high % with Sheik, send them flying away and pray for the Wii to load fast.
 

sasook

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Zelda and Sheik being separated is fine. They don't need the same tier list positions. If you switch, you simply switch to a different tier list position. Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.
 

gm jack

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Zelda and Sheik being separated is fine. They don't need the same tier list positions. If you switch, you simply switch to a different tier list position. Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.
In many matchups, playing as a combination of the two is far superior to playing as one or the other. For example, the classic Sheik damage rack and Zelda kill setup is very effective if Sheik misses the Ftilt -> Usmash window. Together, they are greater than the sum of the parts.

It is not melee where Sheik ***** and Zelda fails. Sheik is more flexible, but lacks killing power. Zelda has plenty of it, and some of them are quick enough to punish tiny mistakes with a kill.
 

Nestec

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You go to your local Animecon and buy a Power Suit. You come back and put it on.

Wallah, playing as Samus.
lol, that was rich.

sasook said:
Zelda and Sheik being separated is fine. They don't need the same tier list positions. If you switch, you simply switch to a different tier list position. Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.
I agree with this, actually. Eliminates any possible complications. And nobody likes complications. -____-
 

Brinzy

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There's really nothing complicated about it.

Just put them in bottom of S-tier, because it's always fun to spite Marth.
 
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