The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[The Nameless Wanderer]

wtf happened to rob???

wasnt he like top 5 in the last list?

Metaknight and Zss.

 

[sasook]

Oh, lol, my bad then.

About D3, lol no, he does not in any way shut down the majority of the cast. There are about 4-5 characters that he SHUTS DOWN that Marth does not. For anyone else, Marth can handle nearly just as well, if not better.

And like I said before, D3 gets beaten by a great deal of the upper tiers, while Marth does not. Marth doesn't get beat by anyone as badly as D3 does by ICs.

My turn to say my bad, then. lol

I dunno, it just seems to me like D3 has a much easier time dealing with many characters. CGs, bairs, utilt, and PSing wrecks a lot of people (of course, thats extremely generalized). I'm not disagreeing with you about the upper tiers, in A and S, I was mostly talking about the C and below when I said majority.

 

[Mota]

I learnt more about DACUS in this thread then any other thread or video guide. Thank you.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It is true that Marth is placing better nowadays. Dedede's placings have been, well, not good lately.

Metaknight and Zss.

MK, maybe, but it has nothing to do with some trash mid-tier character. It has everything to do with ROB's game not advancing, and ROB players not winning tournaments. MK is just icing on the cake and ZSS probably wasn't even a consideration.

What probably doesn't help is that it appears ROB has a footstool probably no more or less severe than Wario's grab-release issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkv6zazgGH4

 

[iDeo]

So Diddy iz S Tier now huh, lol.

Wow ZZS got to B tier, wonder how that happened cause I feel she should be top of C. Oh well surprise surprise.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^

ZSS has alot of very unique tools to deal with the brawl roster. From her combos out of Dsmash, to her over up+b, side+b, and stun gun. While her aerials can be tricky to SH, they are very good and hit hard when they connect.

I learnt more about DACUS in this thread then any other thread or video guide. Thank you.

welp, technically your still better off seeking out character related DACUS threads in order to get their input. Never hurts to do more research.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So Diddy iz S Tier now huh, lol.

Wow ZZS got to B tier, wonder how that happened cause I feel she should be top of C. Oh well surprise surprise.

E tier imo

 

[ShadowLink84]

E tier imo

Diddy for E tier?
@_@

 

[Nestec]

^^ I think he meant ZSS.

My turn to say my bad, then. lol

I dunno, it just seems to me like D3 has a much easier time dealing with many characters. CGs, bairs, utilt, and PSing wrecks a lot of people (of course, thats extremely generalized). I'm not disagreeing with you about the upper tiers, in A and S, I was mostly talking about the C and below when I said majority.

Yeah, he definitely has tools to crush much of the mid-lower tiers. But again, so does Marth.

But yeah, there are some match-ups that Dedede just flat out *****, and not so much with Marth. On the other hand, Marth gets a point for handling the higher tiers better. So at the very least, the two are equal in terms of match-ups.

 

[Nitrix]

But yeah, there are some match-ups that Dedede just flat out *****, and not so much with Marth. On the other hand, Marth gets a point for handling the higher tiers better. So at the very least, the two are equal in terms of match-ups.

No way lol. Dedede completely cancels out the viability of some characters (DK etc) and that frankly makes him a force of nature in terms of matchup statistics. In addition with his other decent matchups make him have better matchups than Marth. They are in no way equal to me.

 

[sasook]

He's not denying that D3 does better against the mid-lower tiers, his point is that Marth does better against the upper tiers. At least I think.

 

[C.box]

He's not denying that D3 does better against the mid-lower tiers, his point is that Marth does better against the upper tiers. At least I think.

This which ones carry more weight, low-mid tiers ? or high tiers?

High tiers is the obvious answer which is where marth does better then d3.

And marth vs mid-low tiers isn't exactly good for them neither.

 

[InfernoAce]

Olimar hasn't moved at all? Pretty depressing, but at least he didn't fall down.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Olimar hasn't moved at all? Pretty depressing, but at least he didn't fall down.

He'll be higher if they find a way to get around his pathetic excuse of a recovery.

And SFP, you were joking when you said ZSS was E Tier, right? Didn't you once say you thought she was one of the top 10 characters in the game?

 

[Flayl]

In the lastest update of Ankoku's thread R.O.B. has 6 tournament wins while ZSS has 1.

 

[Noa.]

Mountain Tiger, Olimar's recovery isn't really why he won't go up. Good Olimars don't get gimped often. I know that I don't and I've only been playing with Oli since the beginning of Summer. Getting around his recovery isn't difficult Just need to make sure to save your second jump and whistle when you need to. It's also important to just know that you don't have to go for the edge, you can just land on stage since Olimar is floaty.

 

[GwJ]

ROB's getting back up there. He was in a slump, but we're getting results again.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In the lastest update of Ankoku's thread R.O.B. has 6 tournament wins while ZSS has 1.

Do you know how long it has been since any ZSS main submitted any results to Ankoku's fascinating but statistically irrelevant results thread?

@mountain_tiger:

Yes. I was joking. She's F tier.

 

[CRASHiC]

This which ones carry more weight, low-mid tiers ? or high tiers?

High tiers is the obvious answer which is where marth does better then d3.

And marth vs mid-low tiers isn't exactly good for them neither.

Tournament results boy, WHERE YOU AT???

Oh, that metaknight holding you back?
tooooo bad.

don't mind the current results. DDD is consistently higher than you *****es.
Learn to pivot walk, then start rapping.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Tournament results boy, WHERE YOU AT???

Oh, that metaknight holding you back?
tooooo bad.

don't mind the current results. DDD is consistently higher than you *****es.
Learn to pivot walk, then start rapping.

So wait, where are is this mythical tournament results?


Oh, Ankoku's thread, it's not statistically valid to use it like you're using it...


Well, unless you're gonna tell me that you should take up smoking to avoid cardiovascular disease.


Ankoku's thread tracks centralization, not character effectiveness.

 

[BIGM1994]

wolf should be in d tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So wait, where are is this mythical tournament results?


Oh, Ankoku's thread, it's not statistically valid to use it like you're using it...


Well, unless you're gonna tell me that you should take up smoking to avoid cardiovascular disease.


Ankoku's thread tracks centralization, not character effectiveness.

Well it does track character effectiveness to some degree but not very well. It would only be valid for top tier and high tiers.
Even then the whole thing of popularity mucks it up.

@_@

DDD sucks, Marth is better.
He actually has to use more than 3 moves. <_<

 

[Kinzer]

He'll be higher if they find a way to get around his pathetic excuse of a recovery.

And SFP, you were joking when you said ZSS was E Tier, right? Didn't you once say you thought she was one of the top 10 characters in the game?

Mountain Tiger, Olimar's recovery isn't really why he won't go up. Good Olimars don't get gimped often. I know that I don't and I've only been playing with Oli since the beginning of Summer. Getting around his recovery isn't difficult Just need to make sure to save your second jump and whistle when you need to. It's also important to just know that you don't have to go for the edge, you can just land on stage since Olimar is floaty.

Listen to this guy, it wouldn't make too much difference if Olimar had his recovery or MKs, he's still a b**** to fight.

 

[Flayl]

Do you know how long it has been since any ZSS main submitted any results to Ankoku's fascinating but statistically irrelevant results thread?

@mountain_tiger:

Yes. I was joking. She's F tier.

Yes the reason why R.O.B. is getting better results is because ZSS mains get everybody in the tournament to not post the results.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Listen to this guy, it wouldn't make too much difference if Olimar had his recovery or MKs, he's still a b**** to fight.

I'm not saying he's not good, because he's a beast. I'm just saying if his recovery was better he'd be higher, since he's good at most everything else.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes the reason why R.O.B. is getting better results is because ZSS mains get everybody in the tournament to not post the results.

Actually I wasn't saying that at all, I was just saying that Ankoku's thread is irrelevant and you don't have any way of tracking tourney results.

It doesn't matter anyway because ZSS is F tier.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well it does track character effectiveness to some degree but not very well. It would only be valid for top tier and high tiers.
Even then the whole thing of popularity mucks it up.

No, even for the top/high tiers, popularity screws it up so much that it's totally invalid for what people are using it to measure.

Don't get me wrong, it's definitely useful, but NOT FOR THIS.


And anyone who tries to use it that way....

u phail statistics 4eva.


If you don't believe me, check out the counter-example that I linked to, it proves by that, by the same logic as we use tournament results, if you wanna avoid cardiovascular disease, you should take up smoking. I'm not kidding, you can double-check the math if you want.

If that doesn't prove "tournament results" don't tell us anything about character effectiveness (at least as currently collected), then EPIC STATISTICS PHAIL!

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, even for the top/high tiers, popularity screws it up so much that it's totally invalid for what people are using it to measure.

I have to disagree somewhat, it does provide some valid reason as to the characters palcement.
For example, due MK being so incredibly dominating, Marth's tournaments have been lack luster.


Otherwise I completely agree with your statement about the usage of he ournament results.

ed to, it proves by that, by the same logic as we use tournament results, if you wanna avoid cardiovascular disease, you should take up smoking. I'm not kidding, you can double-check the math if you want.

If that doesn't prove "tournament results" don't tell us anything about character effectiveness (at least as currently collected), then EPIC STATISTICS PHAIL!

Yeah I saw it, where non smokers had a higher chance of cardiovascular disease than smokers.
Its hilarious and its quite true.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I have to disagree somewhat, it does provide some valid reason as to the characters palcement.
For example, due MK being so incredibly dominating, Marth's tournaments have been lack luster.

Otherwise I completely agree with your statement about the usage of he ournament results.

Only when you're talking about VERY different chart positions. Basically if you're not comparing MK against somebody that's not S tier it's not valid. The reason is that there's enough info to recognize that the averages have a major difference, and even then it tells so little of the story that it's probably better to ignore it anyway.

Bad information is worse then no information at all.

Yeah I saw it, where non smokers had a higher chance of cardiovascular disease than smokers.
Its hilarious and its quite true.

Well, that's not quite it.

Smokers have a higher chance of getting cardiovascular disease, but more non-smokers get it then smokers, by a large margin.

By smash logic that means that you should become a smoker to avoid it, which awesomely illustrates my point, yay Reductio Ad Absurdum!

 

[Nitrix]

I have a question, what is keeping Olimar from rising in the tier list if his recovery doesn't hold him back? I've never really delved into his metagame, but on the surface he seems like a very strong character.

All I really know is that his Pikmin are incredibly annoying

Well, that's not quite it.

Smokers have a higher chance of getting cardiovascular disease, but more non-smokers get it then smokers, by a large margin.

By smash logic that means that you should become a smoker to avoid it, which awesomely illustrates my point, yay Reductio Ad Absurdum!

So your essentially saying that the logical way to analyze the results are to take into account the amount of people who play each character?

 

[AvariceX]

Olimar's recovery does hold him back unfortunately. He has ways of making his recovery not quite as bad as it could be but even then the bottom line is he has the second worst recovery in the game.

Also the fact that the pikmin you pluck come up randomly means that you will often not be able to fully capitalize on some situations because you either neglected to switch them around or didn't have time (face it, in a tournament match you don't always have time to be mashing down-b). Olimar also has a few blindspots where he has trouble stopping approaches, and some characters have moves that let them almost harmlessly move through Oli's wall of spam (Peach's dair, Ness' and Peach's nair for example).

Oli's a great character though, and if not for those few flaws he could easily be top tier, but the fact is he is flawed.

 

[tocador]

DDD sucks, Marth is better.
He actually has to use more than 3 moves. <_<

If a character that has only 3 moves is able to shut up about half of the cast, and do good against the other half(with minor exceptions) then this must be a good character.

 

[CRASHiC]

So wait, where are is this mythical tournament results?


Oh, Ankoku's thread, it's not statistically valid to use it like you're using it...


Well, unless you're gonna tell me that you should take up smoking to avoid cardiovascular disease.


Ankoku's thread tracks centralization, not character effectiveness.

I'm sorry, I forgot that Lain, Atmosk, and Co18 getting on the top 5 at 3 separate major national tournaments was all in Ankoku's thread.
I remember when I saw a marth in the top 5, that was awesome, when it never happened.

And man, Olimar is one weird mother ****er.
Boy either gets rapped, or ***** completly. There is no middle grown. Boy kills Snake and DDD.

 

[tocador]

And gets ***** by peach and GaW(i think).

 

[aeghrur]

So your essentially saying that the logical way to analyze the results are to take into account the amount of people who play each character?

Nope.
Last I checked, he said get the top players for every character and follow them through tournaments to compare their placings.
Ex. Compare Fiction's placings to Dazwa or Snakeee's for 3 months.
Although, I think this could be flawed due to the skill level gaps between the top players like M2K and the top Ganon player. =/

 

[Noa.]

Olimar has two major weaknesses.

His first is his recovery. Known by most people, Olimar's recovery isn't good. But his recovery isn't that bad. If you have good DI and you're a smart player, you should never get gimped. The only exception is Mk, but Mk's amazing at gimping anyway. If he had a better recovery, he may move up a spot or two, but he still won't make top tier.

Recovery is only Olimar's second biggest weakness. His first and biggest weakness is priority. His priority is pitiful. His smashes get beaten very easily and not having grab armor hurts.

If Olimar had decent priority or grab armor, he would probably be in top tier. He doesn't even need a better recovery. It's good enough for a top tier.

As of right now, I think Olimar belongs over Pikachu. We have better top tier matchups, we camp better than Pikachu, and have an easier time killing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So your essentially saying that the logical way to analyze the results are to take into account the amount of people who play each character?

RELEVANT people. Randoms don't matter to the metagame.

I'm sorry, I forgot that Lain, Atmosk, and Co18 getting on the top 5 at 3 separate major national tournaments was all in Ankoku's thread.
I remember when I saw a marth in the top 5, that was awesome, when it never happened.

You never actually addressed my point.


This isn't about Marth vs. DDD, this is about the fact that "tournament results", at least the methodology we're generally using, is not statistically valid.

Which basically means that any conclusions drawn from it are basically BS.

Basically, it's about getting better evidence.


BTW, Ankoku agrees with me on this point.

Nope.
Last I checked, he said get the top players for every character and follow them through tournaments to compare their placings.
Ex. Compare Fiction's placings to Dazwa or Snakeee's for 3 months.
Although, I think this could be flawed due to the skill level gaps between the top players like M2K and the top Ganon player. =/

Well, not individual players, as many people at the top of the metagame as possible.

The unfortunate problem of all tournament results is that people aren't evenly skilled, but the basic philosophy is to get enough people so it averages out and becomes about characters.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm sorry, I forgot that Lain, Atmosk, and Co18 getting on the top 5 at 3 separate major national tournaments was all in Ankoku's thread.
I remember when I saw a marth in the top 5, that was awesome, when it never happened.

MikeHaze pulled 3rd at evo. second only to ally (whom he did beat in a set) and M2k. and besides that, he has been generally ****** the california tourney scene for about 2 months now.

 

[Chuee]

Olimar has two major weaknesses.

His first is his recovery. Known by most people, Olimar's recovery isn't good. But his recovery isn't that bad. If you have good DI and you're a smart player, you should never get gimped. The only exception is Mk, but Mk's amazing at gimping anyway. If he had a better recovery, he may move up a spot or two, but he still won't make top tier.

Recovery is only Olimar's second biggest weakness. His first and biggest weakness is priority. His priority is pitiful. His smashes get beaten very easily and not having grab armor hurts.

If Olimar had decent priority or grab armor, he would probably be in top tier. He doesn't even need a better recovery. It's good enough for a top tier.

As of right now, I think Olimar belongs over Pikachu. We have better top tier matchups, we camp better than Pikachu, and have an easier time killing.

The thing about Olimars recovery that makes it so horrible is that if the opponent is grabbing the ledge while Olimar is trying to recover there is no way he can latch onto the edge unless he has a purple pikmin, which still doesn't help much. Otherwise, if your opponent is too far away to ledge hug before you up-b its pretty good.

 

[Browny]

The sheer amount of characters who have Olimar as their worst matchup, and the amount of advantages he has across the cast including many top tier characters like Snake and DDD, is indicative of a top tier character imo. Not in the same tier as MK/Snake though...