The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Thunderbolt333]

Ness for C tier.

I 2nd that.

 

[AvariceX]

I've been saying that since the game came out...

 

[Brinzy]

Ness for staying where he is.

 

[$yperFlame]

thanks straked

 

[Xebenkeck]

I've been saying that since the game came out...

This, people are finally seeing it.

 

[:mad:]

Ness for staying where he is.

Raph is the only sane one here. D Tier at best.

Spoiler

We don't want him out of low.

 

[AvariceX]

Getting Ness out of low tier won't matter that much anyway. Low tier tourneys seem to be very rare in Brawl, and there's good reason for this. Outside of a few characters this game is actually really well balanced compared to say Melee. When Brawl low tiers' average matchups become 5:95 - 15:85 like Melee low tiers then it might actually matter. As it stands right now there's only a few matchups in the entire game that are that bad.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ness deserves a jump in the tier list a heck of a lot more then Pokemon Trainer did. He's not being carried by just one person. He's not C tier, but I do believe he can land in D tier.

Switch Ness and PT's spots and you'd be a lot closer to an accurate tier list. And then you'd have to drop Lucas down a bunch (somewhere around Yoshi, I'd personally say under Yoshi), move Ike up one spot, and drop Falcon under Link.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ness would be a good (if not great) character if not for the grab-release nonsense.

 

[philbobjoe]

Getting Ness out of low tier won't matter that much anyway. Low tier tourneys seem to be very rare in Brawl, and there's good reason for this. Outside of a few characters this game is actually really well balanced compared to say Melee. When Brawl low tiers' average matchups become 5:95 - 15:85 like Melee low tiers then it might actually matter. As it stands right now there's only a few matchups in the entire game that are that bad.

You know your melee!

 

[Kofu]

Ness's gimpable recovery and lack of a good ground game would still hold him back a bit. Having fantastic aerials and no problem killing is definitely a plus though.

Grab releases aren't too bad--look at Wario. Then again, he's far tougher to grab than Ness or Lucas is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

His gimpable recovery and lack of a good ground game would still hold him back a bit. Having fantastic aerials and no problem killing is definitely a plus though.

Ness is not very gimpable.

Grab releases aren't too bad--look at Wario. Then again, he's far tougher to grab than Ness or Lucas is.

Much, much easier to grab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1.Ness is not very gimpable.

2. Much, much easier to grab.

1. ness can avoid getting gimped, but he is still pretty gimpable compared to the rest of the cast.

2. wario is 10 times harder to grab than ness. wario has lagless aerials and absurd airmovement to avoid getting grabbed... ness has.... a really good fair and an AC able dair

 

[HammerBro123]

see if bowser would be played by more people i think he would be in b tier by pika and others i dont think people give him enough credit for what he should have. I mean he has a infinite but the problem is no one can do so if some people could do it that b tier spot would fit him just fine

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

1. ness can avoid getting gimped, but he is still pretty gimpable compared to the rest of the cast.

2. wario is 10 times harder to grab than ness. wario has lagless aerials and absurd airmovement to avoid getting grabbed... ness has.... a really good fair and an AC able dair

1. Not to discredit you, but do you play any good Ness players? It's really easy to say that but at the end of the day you still have to actually gimp him and it isn't that easy.

2. Agreed. It is much much easier to grab Ness than Wario. That's what I said... O_o

 

[Nidtendofreak]

see if bowser would be played by more people i think he would be in b tier by pika and others i dont think people give him enough credit for what he should have. I mean he has a infinite but the problem is no one can do so if some people could do it that b tier spot would fit him just fine

He'd move up a bit, but not that much. I secondary him, his match-ups stink. ICs and D3 pwn him. No advantages in the top tiers.......or high tiers.......not really any in mid tiers either....

 

[da K.I.D.]

the current tier list measures the current abilities of the characters in it. if nobody can currently use all of the tools at bowsers disposal, then it cant be factored into the tier list....

 

[Noraa]

Lucas > ness

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Not to discredit you, but do you play any good Ness players? It's really easy to say that but at the end of the day you still have to actually gimp him and it isn't that easy.

i played a pretty good ness earlier today actually. hes hard to gimp, but everyone is hard to gimp in brawl. instead of just looking at having to actually gimp ness, you should look at having to actually gimp ness compared to actually gimping rob, or mk, or pit, or sonic, or wario. or even ddd.
compared to those guys ness is very gimpable

also the next thing you said is very confusing.

look at Wario. Then again, he's far tougher to grab than Ness or Lucas is.

Much, much easier to grab.

2. Agreed. It is much much easier to grab Ness than Wario. That's what I said... O_o

thats not what it looks like, it looks like you are trying to contradict was kofu said... but i think you might have just read his statement differently and responded to it in a way that doesnt fit with how i read it

 

[ShadowLink84]

the current tier list measures the current abilities of the characters in it. if nobody can currently use all of the tools at bowsers disposal, then it cant be factored into the tier list....

Wrong, a tierlist is to measure the characters abilities in comparison to the others..
Why?

Fox in melee.
He is the absolute BEST character in melee. No matter how you look at it, he i just the best.

Yet he doesn't win, why?
Simply because the difficulty using him is incredible.
It is also why Marth wins tournaments.

Marth is inferior but is MUCH easier to use and as such, it is easier to realize his capabilities and win tournaments with him.
Fox has that massive requirement for technical skill and even after many many years, there is no Fox that consistently wins national tournaments for that very reason.

The argument about the characters potential being realized is flawed.

 

[deepseadiva]

Lucas > ness

Ness works, Lucas does not. I don't know exactly why - but in the end, Ness is far superior. ...for some reason.

i played a pretty good ness earlier today actually. hes hard to gimp, but everyone is hard to gimp in brawl. instead of just looking at having to actually gimp ness, you should look at having to actually gimp ness compared to actually gimping rob, or mk, or pit, or sonic, or wario. or even ddd.
compared to those guys ness is very gimpable

Ness is moderately difficult to gimp, but of worse consequence is that his recovery is very exploitable. Knocking him off stage and forcing him to PKT2 results into either a gimp or much more commonly, a lot of free damage.

 

[AvariceX]

The more Ness mains learn to recover high (like Snake and D3 have been doing for ages) the more people are going to continue realizing just how hard it actually is to gimp him.

Also while Wario is much harder to grab than Ness, Ness isn't exactly easy to grab; in fact he's either the 2nd or 3rd hardest in the game to grab. Also dair is not technically auto-cancellable - it is lagless if you let the animation finish, that is all (I'm not sure on the technicalities here...read Ref's Ness guide if you're really curious).

 

[deepseadiva]

The more Ness mains learn to recover high (like Snake and D3 have been doing for ages) the more people are going to continue realizing just how hard it actually is to gimp him.

Ness isn't capable of recovering high though...

Snake and Dedede both have great recoveries that cover massive vertical distance. Ness just has a good second jump, and a relatively short third jump. At best he can aim above the ledge.

 

[Noraa]

no lucas is better lol, better recovery and better kill moves.....hes just the better version
plus lucas can cg ness lol...doesnt even matter though

 

[da K.I.D.]

but if you whiff a grab with lucas, you kinda leave your self open to take the ****

nesses dash grab however is rediculously fast to grab and end, making it hard to punish, it also has madd range.
its like they gave him his S64 dash grab...

 

[Noraa]

thats why you pivot grab

 

[hotgarbage]

I like when I go out to gimp Ness and mess up the timing, thus eating a PKT2.


FFFFFFFFFFFFFF

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I like when I go out to gimp Ness and mess up the timing, thus eating a PKT2.


FFFFFFFFFFFFFF

had those happen to me before

stage spikes too

 

[Chuee]

Ness is maybe a little better than lucas, but not by that much.

 

[ShadowLink84]

no lucas is better lol

And so it begins.

, better recovery

True

and better kill moves

Ness' Fsmash kills earlier.
Ness also has his Bair, Dair and his Bthow for killing.

iirc, Lucas has Fsmash, Dsmash and Usmash.
His Dthrow doesn't kill until 150%

.....hes just the better version

WHat about the fact that Ness is superior in the air?
Lucas is superior on the ground but s ground game is kinda crap.

plus lucas can cg ness lol...doesn't even matter though

No he can't.

Lucas: 13, 16, 15
Standing grab
Dash grab
pivot grab

 

[AvariceX]

Ness CG's lucas too -_-. Don't even talk about the matchup; it's dumb.

KID is right here too; Ness has the fastest dash grab in the game.

And finally Ness is very capable of recovering high; his second jump goes very high on its own, and PKT2 can be used to shoot yourself straight upwards, after which you have full control over your free-fall (only Ness and Lucas have this). Only moves with really low knockback angles (D3's dtilt) can ever force you to aim for the ledge, and only if you fail to DI up. I really wish some of my recent Ness matches were recorded ><.

 

[CRASHiC]

Luigi is C tier only cause its green.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ness CG's lucas too -_-. Don't even talk about the matchup; it's dumb.

KID is right here too; Ness has the fastest dash grab in the game.

Kinda sorta.
It ends faster than peach's, though hers lands more quicly.

 

[Chuee]

KID is right here too; Ness has the fastest dash grab in the game.

mk says hello.

And finally Ness is very capable of recovering high; his second jump goes very high on its own, and PKT2 can be used to shoot yourself straight upwards, after which you have full control over your free-fall (only Ness and Lucas have this). Only moves with really low knockback angles (D3's dtilt) can ever force you to aim for the ledge, and only if you fail to DI up. I really wish some of my recent Ness matches were recorded ><.

If you PKT2 up with ness, you get hit. That is it.


@shadowlink: No, lucas has better kill moves overall. Ness has bthrow and possibly bair. Thats it. Lucas has dtilt locks, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, possibly Uair.
Plus lucas can ftilt ness out of GR, while ness can't do anything to lucas.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Obviously Lucas is not performing as well right now but I have an inkling with no support or evidence that Lucas has a very bright future. Just thought I'd throw that out there so that I can be flamed.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@shadowlink: No, lucas has better kill moves overall. Ness has bthrow and possibly bair. Thats it.

Lucas has dtilt locks, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, possibly Uair.
Plus lucas can ftilt ness out of GR, while ness can't do anything to lucas.

I am sorry i fail to see the logic here.
On what basis are you disregarding Ness' Dair and Fsmash?
if its speed it makes no sense since Lucas has his Usmash at 28 frames.
So clearly Ness' Fsmash cannot be ignored.

Ness' Dair is the second most powerful spike in the game. Losing out to Ganon's after 23%.
So unless you are Sonic or MK or another charatcer with an incredible recovery, you are most likely going to die if it hits you.

If you are referring to setups, its the same issue cause again, Ness's Usmash with its 28 frames of wait.

As for the GR: Thats facing Lucas vs Ness matchup wise, its not comparin the characters.

 

[AvariceX]

mk says hello.

Ness' is faster. I don't feel the need to go any further into this as frame data proving this has been posted a long time ago.

If you PKT2 up with ness, you get hit. That is it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177795
This is my region's Power Rankings. In my last 4 tournaments I have played against 6/10 of the PR members and 2 of the Up&Comers as Ness. Not one of them has gimped me out of Ness' recovery - once - including KingAce. M2K said something very true some time ago - this isn't Super Theory Brothers. What happens in practice is far more important than your theories, and in practice none of these high-top level players have gimped my Ness in recent days since I learned to recover properly.

@shadowlink: No, lucas has better kill moves overall. Ness has bthrow and possibly bair. Thats it. Lucas has dtilt locks, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, possibly Uair.
Plus lucas can ftilt ness out of GR, while ness can't do anything to lucas.

Ness can dash-grab Lucas out of GR; this is why I said don't talk about their really dumb matchup with each other. Ness kill moves in (rough) order of killing power (since you are quire clearly clueless here): sweetspot dair off-stage > PK-Flash > bthrow > tipper fsmash > sourspot dair > sweetspot bair > uair > non-tipper fsmash > sweetspot dair on-stage > sweetspot nair > ftilt.

(italics are not very useful kill moves)...in fact uair might actually be better than sweetspot bair.

 

[-Mars-]

I think maybe the fact that Lucas has actual setups into his KO moves might be a reason for him having better KO potential?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@SL84:
Lucas has an advantage in terms of the number of moves he has that kill (or potentially kill). That doesn't necessarily mean he has an easier time killing of course, but I think he probably does. Lucas kills very early and his kill moves aren't as narrow or telegraphed. He just has more options at high percents than Ness does, although you could argue that Ness' few options are more flexible. It probably just comes down to how you play.

Lucas' moves are strong, fast, and many of them kill very early, but their uses tend to be quite narrow and so the few "general" kind of moves he has (nair, fair, jab, dtilt, etc) tend to be spammed and thus end up stale. It takes a very smart player to work around characters that suffer from stale move negation, and these players are rewarded with Lucas.

The recovery options are nice of course as well.

 

[Browny]

Ness can gimp ness better than anyone by intercepting the others PKT with his own lmao