The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Awww come on guys, Meta Knight isn't that bad, he's got a sword, and he can fly, and he's fast. He should be at least Mid Tier, like.....B Tier.

 

[:mad:]

Awww come on guys, Meta Knight isn't that bad, he's got a sword, and he can fly, and he's fast. He should be at least Mid Tier, like.....B Tier.

You stole that same quote from a troll in the last tier list.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

You stole that same quote from a troll in the last tier list.

lolstalker

 

[:mad:]

lolstalker

How am I... a stalker for a remembering a quote that someone sigged?

 

[Likeness101]

Just wanna know, who has the baiting/punishment game in brawl, is it Wario?

 

[:mad:]

Just wanna know, who has the baiting/punishment game in brawl, is it Wario?

Brawl is a game of baiting/punishing.

Spoiler

And options.

But yes, Wario excels at that.

 

[Noa.]

The thing about Olimars recovery that makes it so horrible is that if the opponent is grabbing the ledge while Olimar is trying to recover there is no way he can latch onto the edge unless he has a purple pikmin, which still doesn't help much. Otherwise, if your opponent is too far away to ledge hug before you up-b its pretty good.

The thing about Olimar's recovery that doesn't make it so horrible is that Olimar doesn't need to grab the ledge to recover.

You are only looking at Olimar's UpB while judging his recovery. Olimar's UpB does suck for recovery.

But when you want to correctly judge a recovery, you also look at the fall speed of the character, how high their double jump is, and if they have any special tools to help them recover.

These special tools include Peach's float, Fox's faircopter (I don't know the correct term) and *gasp* Olimar's whistle.

Olimar's whistle grants super armor frames. These super armor frames protect him from getting gimped while recovering.

Keep in mind, you don't have to go for the ledge when recovering. Olimar can just land onstage directly.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sonic I believe, thrives on the baiting.

 

[:mad:]

I don't think anyone else brought this up about Olimar, but...

His weight?

 

[AvariceX]

Weight alone isn't enough to hold a character back, although it certainly doesn't hurt to be heavy. Look at MK (really light), G&W (2nd lightest in the game) and Melee Jiggs (lightest in the game)...they all do fine despite their weight because they are great characters. If you have the tools to not get hit (MK) then weight becomes much less of a factor.

 

[Nestec]

No way lol. Dedede completely cancels out the viability of some characters (DK etc) and that frankly makes him a force of nature in terms of matchup statistics. In addition with his other decent matchups make him have better matchups than Marth. They are in no way equal to me.

And do you know how many high-tier characters give Dedede a run for his money? Characters which make his high-level gameplay much more of a struggle than Marth's? Dedede has those "cancel-out" match-ups in about five spots. And look at who the victims are. Lol, no one cares. Marth can handle those characters, and many others that Dedede quite frankly has more trouble with.

Which ones carry more weight, low-mid tiers ? or high tiers?

High tiers is the obvious answer which is where marth does better then d3.

This, pretty much.

The thing about Olimar's recovery that doesn't make it so horrible is that Olimar doesn't need to grab the ledge to recover.

You are only looking at Olimar's UpB while judging his recovery. Olimar's UpB does suck for recovery.

But when you want to correctly judge a recovery, you also look at the fall speed of the character, how high their double jump is, and if they have any special tools to help them recover.

If one of the factors holding back Ness is his recovery, then Olimar should be treated in the same regard. I don't see how the heck Olimar is making it back on stage more often than Ness, who is heavier, does not completely rely on the ledge for recovery, has a higher 2nd jump, AND a useful Fair to protect him as he gets back.

 

[Albert.]

Does Marth still beat Wario?

 

[Nestec]

He does better against him than Dedede does.

...If that's not where you were headed with that, then my bad. lol

 

[PhantomX]

Does Marth still beat Wario?

If your spacing is as good as MikeHaze's or Neo's then yes, but not by much... if it's not as good as theirs, then no.

 

[AvariceX]

Until Marth can say this

METAKNIGHT
DIFFICULTY: EVEN - 45:55
​

and this

SNAKE
DIFFICULTY: EVEN - 50:50
​

instead of this

Meta Knight 35:65 Meta Knight

and this

Snake 40:60 Snake

he will not be a better character than Dedede.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If your spacing is as good as MikeHaze's or Neo's then yes, but not by much... if it's not as good as theirs, then no.

Then no problem.

10topsofthemetagames.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Only when you're talking about VERY different chart positions. Basically if you're not comparing MK against somebody that's not S tier it's not valid. The reason is that there's enough info to recognize that the averages have a major difference, and even then it tells so little of the story that it's probably better to ignore it anyway.

Bad information is worse then no information at all.

True enough

Well, that's not quite it.

Smokers have a higher chance of getting cardiovascular disease, but more non-smokers get it then smokers, by a large margin.

By smash logic that means that you should become a smoker to avoid it, which awesomely illustrates my point, yay Reductio Ad Absurdum!

So silly, I was agreeing with the point of your example, not agreeing with the example itself.
*smacks with fan*


@avariceX: IIRC, DDD has very poor matchups against Olimar, the IC's, and Falco.

 

[DMG]

Marth beats Wario. It's not even about superb spacing so much as it is brick-walling appropriately. He has frame traps on Wario sadly that are hard to get around aside from player mistakes.

 

[Kinzer]

Not even with air-plankin' DMG?

 

[AvariceX]

You would be correct Shadowlink. However Falco, Oli, and IC's are all not easy characters to play. Falco and IC's are starting to see more play but are still fairly uncommon (especially good ones). I'm not saying Snake is easy to play either, but he's a lot easier to play at a competent enough level that you can win some games, but MK and Snake are just far more common than any of the other top tiers and that isn't going to change for quite some time (if it even does change).

 

[DMG]

Wario CAN win on some stages by flat out running away. Stages like Rainbow Cruise, Japes, gay stages.

BUT, Wario has to get the lead first. Which even on those stages is hard to do.

So overall yes, Marth wins even with aircamping.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You would be correct Shadowlink. However Falco, Oli, and IC's are all not easy characters to play. Falco and IC's are starting to see more play but are still fairly uncommon (especially good ones). I'm not saying Snake is easy to play either, but he's a lot easier to play at a competent enough level that you can win some games, but MK and Snake are just far more common than any of the other top tiers and that isn't going to change for quite some time (if it even does change).

That was...confusing.
Falco, IC's and Oli are hard t play which contributes to them not mattering as much? No wait that makes no sense.
The difficulty in using the character is unimportant, e look a the top of the metagame while tkaing into account those characters abilities.

The matchup isnt going to change.

It is understandable because the IC's, Olimar and Falco matchups do not weigh as much sa the Snake and Meta KNight matchups due to those respective characters being high up.
As such it would hit Marth harder.

But the argument of ease of use is hardly allowable.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Toon Link MUST move up to 12th spot by the next tier list!

 

[Frown]

Toon Link MUST move up to 12th spot by the next tier list!

Too little KO power, sorry.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Too little KO power, sorry.

thught it was the fact that he had no good setups for his KO moves.
his KO moves have decent strength

 

[Frown]

thught it was the fact that he had no good setups for his KO moves.
his KO moves have decent strength

You're right. Range is probably a bigger problem.

 

[Noa.]

If one of the factors holding back Ness is his recovery, then Olimar should be treated in the same regard. I don't see how the heck Olimar is making it back on stage more often than Ness, who is heavier, does not completely rely on the ledge for recovery, has a higher 2nd jump, AND a useful Fair to protect him as he gets back.

When I mean holding him back, I mean Olimar's recovery doesn't stop him from being top tier. If we gave Olimar's G&W recovery, Then I could imagine him moving up above G&W and Marth but still not breaking into top tier.

But what's holding Olimar back from top tier is his low priority. If he had decent priority, then he would be top tier even with his bad recovery.

And I thought that what was holding Ness back was his problems in dealing with high priority disjointed hitboxes. And a little bit to his grab release issues. I was sure that Ness players learned not to get gimped more than once in a set at least.

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, if you know how to space and when to punish Marth, he can't brickwall you very effectively at all. He has to keep you at bay with tippers.

 

[Nestec]

You would be correct Shadowlink. However Falco, Oli, and IC's are all not easy characters to play.

This has nothing to do with anything.

Falco and IC's are starting to see more play but are still fairly uncommon (especially good ones). I'm not saying Snake is easy to play either, but he's a lot easier to play at a competent enough level that you can win some games, but MK and Snake are just far more common than any of the other top tiers and that isn't going to change for quite some time (if it even does change).

That still does not change the fact that Dedede is being hurt by higher tiers, and Marth is not.

When I mean holding him back, I mean Olimar's recovery doesn't stop him from being top tier. If we gave Olimar's G&W recovery, Then I could imagine him moving up above G&W and Marth but still not breaking into top tier.

Aah, okay, I understand what you mean.

And I thought that what was holding Ness back was his problems in dealing with high priority disjointed hitboxes. And a little bit to his grab release issues. I was sure that Ness players learned not to get gimped more than once in a set at least.

No, Ness has a high-priority, disjointed hitbox of his own: Fair.
Yeah, the grab-release business is hurting him, and his tourney representation (but this seems to be improving). People have considered his recovery a major problem, but I say it's no more of a problem than Olimar's recovery.

 

[$yperFlame]

whats the good tier list

 

[:mad:]

whats the good tier list

Trick question, there isn't one.

This probably isn't what you'd like to see, but it's as accurate as it gets. (in high tier)

 

[Nestec]

Tier List 3.0 in this thread is the only real one right now.

You might've seen Ankoku's Ranking List, which is purely tournament results, not a tier list.

EDIT: lol, listen to straked.

 

[tocador]

Too little KO power, sorry.

Ganon hez teh KO pauar, can he hez top tire nao?

I think TL dosent go up because characters that can easily pass his wall of projectiles own him, like DK or Falco(forces approach :D)

 

[Noa.]

No, Ness has a high-priority, disjointed hitbox of his own: Fair.
Yeah, the grab-release business is hurting him, and his tourney representation (but this seems to be improving). People have considered his recovery a major problem, but I say it's no more of a problem than Olimar's recovery.

Okay, that was my mistake. Ness has problems dealing with characters who have a lot of high priority long ranged aerials. I think that would be correct. That shuts down his aerial game and his ground game it mediocre at best.

 

[Nestec]

Yeah, I'd probably have to agree with that then.

 

[SOVAman]

why Ike WHY

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What do you think has contributed DKs fall from grace? He has fallen like 8 spots between the first tier and the current one. Once thought to be high tier is now hanging around the mid tiers.

 

[SuSa]

Lack of rep. D3 infinite.

 

[AvariceX]

Regardless of ease/difficulty of use, MK and Snake are far more common (due obviously to being significantly better characters) than Falco, Oli or IC's in the tournament scene. MK and Snake holding Marth back is far more of a hindrance than Falco, Oli and IC's doing the same to Dedede; this is very relevant.

Also in my defense, look at C.Viper in SFIV; everybody acknowledges her as a great character yet she's stuck in mid tier because she's so hard to use that nobody except maybe Combofiend can use her properly.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Ness for C tier.