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The Official Marth Video Critique Thread

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ZHMT

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Tbh my theory on this is...

Wifi is trash, its good to practice on IF both players dont use wifi bs tactics like spam rolls and excess spot dodging that dont work offline.

Marth is one of the few characters that is tremendously hurt by wifi lag. I dont care if the connection is BLUE, it still sucks.

Wifi matches are decent representations of a players skill if and only if both players attempt to do things they do offline, and when lag messes something up, it will likely be visible and removed from the critique.

I HATE critiquing wifi, and this is coming from someone that plays a lot of wifi (sadly). I know what messes Marth up, and try to point it out in my critiques.

Wifi is bad...it sucks...its trash...if you can play a lot of offline, never do wifi ever...

If you cant, play wifi, its better then lurking the boards and reading stuff all day. Play people that **** you or are at your level (that play offline) and learn from them. Just dont get upset if someone mentions a match being wifi cause it DOES affect gameplay a ton.

The thing is...its hard to do the above if you ONLY play online. If you start playing online and DONT know how the game actually works, you will be ***** in tourney. I myself know how the game works, and played offline FIRST, and developed what I can through wifi, using offline techniques, I got ***** for it when I played "wifi players". This is why sites like aib fail, because so many players do 100% wifi and play weird as heck.

Hopefully you get my point xD. Imma stop typing now.
 

ChaosKnight

Smash Master
Joined
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4,123
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Fairfax , VA
i came here too see if i could critique and i see this yawnnnn *** why even bother trying to help someone inferior to your skill or talent ....

i'll give you 2 no.. ....3 years of online play and you still wouldn't catch up to me ......
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
CK you don't shield

your zone is just god **** bloody red

you're not even good at being "TheCK."

wth?
 

Pr0phetic

Dodge the bullets!
Joined
May 11, 2008
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Hopefully someone posts a vid once I return home to set this thread back on track...

And CK, no need to be selfish, it is a competitive game but there's no competition if everyones bad.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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I think honestly, one usually needs to take marth aspects one bit at a time in terms of perfecting them. Get fair down, get dtilt zoning down, get grab game down, etc.
Of course, I suck due to hardly having a Wii to practice with, so yeah...
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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lol why, because you're not "in charge" any more? Not like you ever were. : P
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
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I'll be posting vids tomorrow HOPEFULLY

OUGA needs to hurry up with dem vids, I have pools vid vs. Zoot Suit Zamoose (was taken to Norfair...****ing GAY)
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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I remember when I used to critique matches.

Lower level play and wifi matches absoloutely bore me and just make me rage.

Then I watch Ankoku's vid against a Fox on final destination and have no idea what the hell he was doing, so I just go "SCREW CRITIQUING". But seriously Ankoku, you had fox at like 180% at grab, an up throw would have ended it.

RAGE.

Also, on another note, you never start off a match with a viable thought process (that I can see). Like, it almost looks like wifi when you start the match and just run forward with a fair (whilst being no where near your opponent) when it's obvious the opponent is just gonna start pew pewing projectiles. Or when you full hop straight above a Fox when it's obvious he has bam bam up smash. And when it's obvious you don't have meta knight's dair.

Oh, but I like your use of jab.
 

Shaya

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"Start of match"
Unless you knew this ZSS throws away all but one piece at the start, you shouldn't have started with a sh fair. Fair only gives you 4 frames, while shffl airdodge -> shield (12 frames of vulnerability) or dash to shield (17 frames of vulnerability but a huge distance cut down) of safety compared to fairs 20+ vulnerability it was a slightly silly move that could have had two pieces thrown at you, the second being glide tossed for easy damage to the ZSS before the match even started.

0:10 - You go for some fair/gimp off stage, ZSS isn't going to get gimped at this low percent, but you left behind an armor piece, which... well, could have gimped him if thrown appropriately. Also watch out for the vertical spacing, you could have hit with fair if you fast falled.

0:18 - You grab the armor piece again but let the ZSS get back to the stage with much ease. I know you wanted to chuck the thing again, but you were close enough to punish with db (13%+ instead of 10%) and then could have followed up with a chucked armor piece for more percent.
~ Plus I'm not sure why you glide toss back both times?

0:36 - It was very easy to see that ZSS was looking for an above stage recovery, the dtilt wasn't needed, as a reflex action less than a second later would have been better. Plus after ZSS goes above you, you shield, a bad habit perhaps? ZSS hadn't of started a down b, so up air strings would have been perfect here.

0:38 - Badly spaced fair on shield for no real good reason?

0:40 - After the throw you start aiming for a space as if a ZSS would challenge you in the air horizontally. Plus you jumped; at this point of time, the ZSS had full view of Marth's glaring weakness of below him.

0:44 - Full hop fair? Is this a habit of your opponent's you're trying to punish?

0:52 - Instead of going for a fair, you could have done better (at least better than not punishing the tech roll at all) with nair, or with slightly more patience an uair as well. Lack of patience cost you a grand opportunity for a kill. And you then get punished for it too.

1:10 - Just like I, I love spamming aerials after a kill, but once ZSS is back, you need to quickly reinstate zoning, which you didn't do, allowing ZSS to properly abuse her invincbility frames to hit you.
Protip: Being too close to the ledge forces you off it, and you lose your shield as well very easily. You stalled within your shield for whatever reason, even though ZSS wasn't within your inner red zone. You could have waited for the platform above to return for safe passage back on stage, or reacted faster to beat out the ZSS.

1:17 - This was completely avoidable. Even with the bad timing so that you didnt sweet spot, I think you may have been able to just di forward onto the stage 'just'.

1:20 - You start your stock going for a grab, easily predicted by the ZSS. Whilst avoiding the grab, at 1:22, ZSS put herself in quite a bad position for punishment (probably far exceeding the 24% you would have gotten for fthrow fsmash).

1:27 - The ZSS has shown so far to mostly recover above the stage (ledge jumps included), ignoring this has so far made you lose out on many opportunities.

1:36 - Players will generally always roll or jump when backed into a stage ledge, it was possible to punish.

1:50 - Eep at getting hit by ZSS's dair ;\ Uair would have done fine...

2:15 - You could have gone for the platform after your up b, no?
2:19 - FFing closer to ZSS after escaping her dsmash could have turned out a lot worse...
2:21 - A fast fall to utilt/upsmash would have most likely worked here. The ZSS air dodged prematurely, noticing this you could have gotten the uair.

2:26 - Cr4sh doesn't seem to dash attack except as a visible punishment (like when you sh too close), yet you space yourself predicting one quite a bit (or a side b); ZSS getting grabs is something I thought to be quite rare...

2:32 - This lack of sweet spotting is DANGEROUS.

2:45 - I think one of your biggest weaknesses is the lack of patience, and you often aiming your sword at places where the ZSS hasn't even shown signs of going to yet... ZSS is punishing badly spaced aggression via dash attacking your short hops.

2:56 - In the spam of 20 seconds ZSS has punished the sh attempts with dash attack like what? 4 times?

3:20 - And once you're at the right percent, punish that short hop with side b for the kill. Zing.

3:31 - Fairs aren't always your best approach, yet you were baited into the dsmash not ONCE, but TWICE (fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...) You going for an uair would have been completely safe, and probably would have killed. Knowing he was about to lose a stock, since he put himself in a bad position, him getting 38% out of it is horrible.

3:38 - I know you're going for that 24% here, and so does the ZSS. She has just left herself wide open, and I'll tell you something, ffuair to upsmash is also a combo at 0% and does 34%. Hell, the reason we go for the fthrow fsmash is because it's a punisher of opponents avoiding our other CRAZY **** we have at 0%.

3:44 - Dash attack to punish sh.
3:47 - Repeat above.
3:48 - ZSS must not think much of you to try for a third time in 4 seconds. Thank god you punished here.

3:53 - Uair <3. Jab was an accident though, right?

3:58+ - You're letting yourself get juggled here by trying to get behind/through ZSS. there's a nice sexy platform safely waiting for you below, or a nice safe ledge because you haven't dolphin slashed as well. Now you lose your jump and are more suspectable to juggling.

4:01 - You're FALLING TOWARDS ZSS from above her. See the problem here? Luckily you air dodged through it :D

Over all I'm seeing a bit of "memory'd" play at the moment, instead of a reactive one. Realising that things like shield can be left to the last moments (comes out in 1 frame) or awaiting to see what your opponent does when they are in a bad position instead of trying to predict wrongly and fail... Is something you need to work out.
Also your own predictability and how predictable cr4sh was in outsting you for it was pretty painful. How many times would have a retreating sh/shff shield saved you and allowed you to punish BEFORE you get into kill percents and ZSS starts spamming side b to finish you off while you're trying to short hop?


I'm going to be a lot more brief for the second match, as I'm pretty sure I covered a lot of your issues already.

Match 2!

4:22 - So it is a habit. Every habit on everyone not using meta knight is punishable.

4:37 - Much better vertical spacing. How awesome are 'empty' aerials covering where ZSS could only hit you with a jump of her own (and not win) to a fast fall punish!? :D

4:47 - Work on only doing one side b. There's 22 frames of hitstun after the first hit (14 if they're in the air), you have the time to chill if you miss the first hit as to not get punished by the roll.

6:00 - Getting better at avoiding the really simple punishment ZSS has on your short hops. Slip ups are a-okay.

7:18 - I noticed this towards the end of the first match, instead of always ledge jumping, ZSS started to mostly do get up attacks. The shift was possible to note much earlier.

7:34 - Hold it for a moment there MISTER. Did I just see what I thought you did? You gave up a perfect position, especially against ZSS by allowing her to just dash under you? WAH!? You had complete control, and a bit of patience would have followed with opportunities as ZSS 'struggles' to get past the unfavourable position.

Over all my end of match 1 comment applies. Your Marth is good, you know how he works, HOWEVER, your biggest weakness is the lack of patience. Being patient doesn't mean going slower, it means not doing anything stupid/punishable in a moment that should have been the other way around.
Sorry if I'm overly harsh, I do that, but I definitely liked watching your Marth.
 

BBoyindo

Smash Ace
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So this match is IRL not wi-fi... but it's scrubbery. The match I played next was better, but I didn't get it recorded... ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuR79mexABs&fmt=18

Critiques por favor? Not mah best work but oh well...
Some things i picked up.

Big stuff:
-Your walls were built up badly. You only did SHdouble Fair, SHFastfall fair is good to mix it up. Also, Fsmash shouldn't be on of your walls' main attacks, it is too laggy and you should safe it for kills. Replace it with a Dtilt instead.
-Less Fsmash in general.
-You let Link get in way too easily. You should pressure him with fairs, Dtilts and other moves while staying at your optimal range, tipper range. Letting someone get inside your zoning makes you resort to unsafe or retreating options, which brings me to the next point...
-Don't roll so much! It can get punished very easily by smart players. Also, when you roll, you often roll behind the opponent. This is BAD for Marth. His roll is short, slow, easily punished and it puts you in a bad position. Rolling backwards is harder to punish and you can reset your spacing. You shouldn't let your opponent get in anyway so that you don't even HAVE to roll.

Little tips:
-Fthrow to Fsmash only on 0-4% or if you conditioned someone into falling into it.
-Finish your DB unless you cancel it after DB1.
-Ftilt is an anti air move, and it is too slow to be used as an GTFO move. Use Jab instead or just reset spacing.
-Shorthop Nair doesn't usually hit if you do it out of a shorthop immediately. Wait a sec and Nair then fastfall.
-Watch out when link is above you, his dair is a powerful tool and you got lucky your opponent didn't know how to use it.
-Don't go for a spike too often.

I recommend you to read EL's thread on traps and brickwalls, Steel2nd's thread on Zones and maybe EL's thread on Dancing blade.
Your Marth definitely needs a lot of work but just keep practising and you'll get there!
 

The Marth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
153
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Some things i picked up.

Big stuff:
-Your walls were built up badly. You only did SHdouble Fair, SHFastfall fair is good to mix it up. Also, Fsmash shouldn't be on of your walls' main attacks, it is too laggy and you should safe it for kills. Replace it with a Dtilt instead.
-Less Fsmash in general.
-You let Link get in way too easily. You should pressure him with fairs, Dtilts and other moves while staying at your optimal range, tipper range. Letting someone get inside your zoning makes you resort to unsafe or retreating options, which brings me to the next point...
-Don't roll so much! It can get punished very easily by smart players. Also, when you roll, you often roll behind the opponent. This is BAD for Marth. His roll is short, slow, easily punished and it puts you in a bad position. Rolling backwards is harder to punish and you can reset your spacing. You shouldn't let your opponent get in anyway so that you don't even HAVE to roll.

Little tips:
-Fthrow to Fsmash only on 0-4% or if you conditioned someone into falling into it.
-Finish your DB unless you cancel it after DB1.
-Ftilt is an anti air move, and it is too slow to be used as an GTFO move. Use Jab instead or just reset spacing.
-Shorthop Nair doesn't usually hit if you do it out of a shorthop immediately. Wait a sec and Nair then fastfall.
-Watch out when link is above you, his dair is a powerful tool and you got lucky your opponent didn't know how to use it.
-Don't go for a spike too often.

I recommend you to read EL's thread on traps and brickwalls, Steel2nd's thread on Zones and maybe EL's thread on Dancing blade.
Your Marth definitely needs a lot of work but just keep practising and you'll get there!
Muy gracias. Thanks for the roll advice, I thought roll was epic win lol. And the link didn't know how to play, it's been a few months for him. I can try to get a new vid up in a week or so, depending on how gay the weather is.

Links to the threads? Walls specifically, that match was the first I've tried implenting too much fair lol

EDIT: How was my spacing? I thought I did a halfway decent job, but I'm not one to judge.
 

The Marth

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 19, 2007
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You can find the threads in the Marth guides thread, it is stickied.
About your spacing you didn't weave your aerials enough and you need to use Dtilt.
Yeah weaving is my biggest weakness, and I just recently figured out the wonders of Dtilt. Is it just me or does the Brawl Dtilt come out faster than the melee dtilt?
 

BBoyindo

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
672
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Lets see...

Brawl Dtilt:
Hit: 7-13
End: 47
IASA: 21

Melee Dtilt:
Total: 49
Hit: 7-9
IASA: 20 (CAN'T INTERRUPT W/ SHIELD)

So Melee Dtilt comes out at the same time but has a shorter ladting hitbox, can be interrupted 1 frame earlier but not with shield, and the full animation is 2 frames longer.
No big difference.
 

The Marth

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 19, 2007
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>_< Get a tripod for the camera, I got naseous halfway through the video.

Your Fsmashing isn't as bad as mine, though I doubt anybodys is :p Just remember, depending on the person, they may not know how to punish lag appropriatley. MK is probably the worst char to Fsmash against though... His Dsmash *****.

First Video:

Nice first stock in the first video. Try and work on weaving your fairs, you got shieldgrabbed often because of it. At around 3:54, you did the get up off ledge attack over 100% Bad idea because of your Dsmash happy MK friend. Instead try rolling or ledge hopping a fair or even counter if your sure hes going to attack. Though, admittedly, Marth has an awful ledge game. You are also very aggressive vs. MK. This works for most characters, but an aggro Marth vs. MK will usually get you pwned. You did a good job pulling it off though, but keep this in mind when you go to a tournament.

I noticed that you DS out of nowhere sometimes. I'm guessing this was an effort to blow MK out of his tornado ( 4:11, 4:21), but next time, try DS OOS. It's faster, and gives you invincibility frames =D Nice Dtilt at 5:21. Also, if MK is at the higher percentages, don't try to just regrab him, try to throw him. 5:24 was good oppurtunity for Dthrow. Other than that though, it was a decent game and fun to watch :laugh:



Overall:
- Don't spam punishable moves like Fsmash and DS unless you KNOW they will connect.
- Work on DS OOS vs. Tornado
- Less Aggro vs. MK

_______________________________________
(WOOT! First wall of text!)
 

Drews0

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 21, 2008
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84
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Would someone amazingly awesome post a video they want criticed/direct me to a vid containing a good example of weaving where it is painfully obvious what people are talking about? Because as far as I can tell this is my biggest problem as Marth and I can't recognise what people mean without visual.
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
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Apr 17, 2009
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Hello Marths, here are my failures in high quality!

First of all, I would hereby acknowledge the following mistakes I made:

- Too little dtilt
- No DS OoS (for some reason I forgot about it, which is incredibly stupid)
- No match control
- End of match 4 a failed grab release, which was fail.
- Jumping into the ****, caused by bad reflexes at the time
- Failed attempts to counter.

I also have the feeling I should become better at shielding attacks, please note what I missed here.

Any advice against the turtle?

EDIT: Yes, spike attempts are lame. I'll never do it again.

Kaak is an awesome G&W, a major figure in the Netherlands. I never expected to really win against him due to my inexperience with most of the cast including G&W, but I can feel happy I got him down to 1 stock at least once. Obviously I will practice and become better, but I would like your opinion on the matches.

I was actually a MM best of 5, but we played all of them anyway.

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2LBUh9iqok&feature=channel
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVxBszVg0dw&feature=channel
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxvU6vetimE&feature=channel
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flv5ZSZyrks&feature=channel
5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gdl8evJEIs&feature=channel
 

Kolia

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
8
@ Lord_Chair

I watched the first two videos, and the biggest thing I noticed is how you stand still a lot. Both times when you were down by 2 stocks, you started imposing your spacing and pressuring the G&W. That was way better play. I wanted to see more of that. Also, you went for the spike EVERY time you could. Most times when it was not available. You could have used those times as an opportunity to at least try to control the stage.
 

Asimio

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
81
>_< Get a tripod for the camera, I got naseous halfway through the video.

Your Fsmashing isn't as bad as mine, though I doubt anybodys is :p Just remember, depending on the person, they may not know how to punish lag appropriatley. MK is probably the worst char to Fsmash against though... His Dsmash *****.

First Video:

Nice first stock in the first video. Try and work on weaving your fairs, you got shieldgrabbed often because of it. At around 3:54, you did the get up off ledge attack over 100% Bad idea because of your Dsmash happy MK friend. Instead try rolling or ledge hopping a fair or even counter if your sure hes going to attack. Though, admittedly, Marth has an awful ledge game. You are also very aggressive vs. MK. This works for most characters, but an aggro Marth vs. MK will usually get you pwned. You did a good job pulling it off though, but keep this in mind when you go to a tournament.

I noticed that you DS out of nowhere sometimes. I'm guessing this was an effort to blow MK out of his tornado ( 4:11, 4:21), but next time, try DS OOS. It's faster, and gives you invincibility frames =D Nice Dtilt at 5:21. Also, if MK is at the higher percentages, don't try to just regrab him, try to throw him. 5:24 was good oppurtunity for Dthrow. Other than that though, it was a decent game and fun to watch :laugh:



Overall:
- Don't spam punishable moves like Fsmash and DS unless you KNOW they will connect.
- Work on DS OOS vs. Tornado
- Less Aggro vs. MK

_______________________________________
Sorry about the quality, it was actually made on a camera phone.

Yeah, I tend to DS when he's coming with his tornado. It's just that MK was puts a lot of pressure on my shield so I'm always looking to get him before he lands a hit on me, but yeah it's certainly not viable because he goes back and then wacks me when i'm coming down.

I feel my marth gets really pounded when in the air. I'm always coming down with air dodges and MK variates between his Up-b and simply standing there and then Dsmashing me. Should I just try landing away from him? When I do that he usually comes with his tornado, but I guess a counter could solve that.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
@ Lord_Chair,

1) You roll, waaaayyyyy too much. so many times you were in a good situation and just rolled away allowing him to get it back together. Not only that, but your rolls are predictable.
2) You counter so much. Counter is an attack like dash attack.. it shouldn't be done. And if you do do it, you should use it like once a match. It's easily predicted and he punished you hard for it the majority of the time
3) You always use the green variation as the last hit for DB. It's easily DIed out of and once they do get out of it you give them a huge chance to punish you for it.
4) You use dair too much. It is really laggy and not really worth it.

To answer your question about the turtle, shield it, and DS OOS. You should probably read the stickies and such. Also, more dtilt.
 
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