The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[GunmasterLombardi]

Link is better close range, Samus is better mid/long range.

 

[Justblaze647]

For the best move in the game... I nominate all of olimar's smashes

 

[Kole]

I nominate Lucas's Zair

 

[#HBC | J]

I nominate Lucas's Zair

I second this obvious nomination.

 

[Kitamerby]

I nominate Lucas's Zair

I third this obvious nomination.

 

[Shaya]

@SFP,
you're too fast, I hope you caught my ninja edit.

Link has great survivability past gimping percent with his momentum cancelling. He has great range (superior to Marth at least in his sword/grounded moves; not sure about MK) and reasonably powerful kill moves. He's also blessed with a great spot dodge. What I don't get is they cursed him with having nothing to do out of a spot dodge... ;\

I commend you on bringing up the whole "his recovery is bad in specific match ups", this is true. However the tier list is most definitely shaped by the best characters in the game. This puts him in a sour position. And his recovery in terms of "second chances" is really lacklustre though; which is what most people probably refer to.

What I find interesting is you saying that ZSS (I assume) can't gimp Link. Can't ZSS tether grab the ledge, predict when Link will up b, then ledge snap and wait out link's recovery with invincibility?

@ For DP.

Just admit people down grade Link so much cause of his recovery. This tier list is already a joke to look at. So admitting parts that lead to this joke is not gonna make it look any worst.

Spoiler

Wow... I would say that more people would agree that you're the joke rather than this list.
I don't think I can actually continue to read your posts DP, they cause me headaches.

It's a never ending predictable cycle with you.
All I can say (but it won't do anything, you never change, I'd put money on a psychiatrist diagnosing you as psychotic [possibly a manic depressant]) is if you think "this" is a joke, you should stop posting here.
You are unable to be debated or reasoned with. Because of this you cause frustration to everyone who tries, which only results in insults; and you don't understand why.

If you say "you boys don't know anything", and/or coupled with "you guys only think he's bad because of his recovery", and someone says "take a look at his terrible oos options and start up speed of his moves", you reply with:

"Just admit people down grade Link so much cause of his recovery." and/or "I don't think those things are bad". Then we go back to "you boys don't know anything" within a few posts. over... and over... and over... and over... and over... and over again... same thing... over and over... and over... and over... I guess I was at least lucky for you to give your opinion on "I don't think his oos options are bad" (which you are just blatantly wrong about), usually you'd cherry pick what you would respond to/acknowledge.

 

[Toby.]

What I find interesting is you saying that ZSS (I assume) can't gimp Link. Can't ZSS tether grab the ledge, predict when Link will up b, then ledge snap and wait out link's recovery with invincibility?

Tether ledge grabs give you a lot less invincibility than a standard ledge grab. I would imagine that ZSS could still gimp link just fine, though.

Want to play smash tonight Shaya?

 

[Dark.Pch]

@SFP,

@ For DP.


Wow... I would say that more people would agree that you're the joke rather than this list.
I don't think I can actually continue to read your posts DP, they cause me headaches.

It's a never ending predictable cycle with you.
All I can say (but it won't do anything, you never change, I'd put money on a psychiatrist diagnosing you as psychotic [possibly a manic depressant]) is if you think "this" is a joke, you should stop posting here.
You are unable to be debated or reasoned with. Because of this you cause frustration to everyone who tries, which only results in insults; and you don't understand why.

If you say "you boys don't know anything", and/or coupled with "you guys only think he's bad because of his recovery", and someone says "take a look at his terrible oos options and start up speed of his moves", you reply with:

"Just admit people down grade Link so much cause of his recovery." and/or "I don't think those things are bad". Then we go back to "you boys don't know anything" within a few posts. over... and over... and over... and over... and over... and over again... same thing... over and over... and over... and over... I guess I was at least lucky for you to give your opinion on "I don't think his oos options are bad" (which you are just blatantly wrong about), usually you'd cherry pick what you would respond to/acknowledge.

Whats up your butt? The post you just quoted was my opinion on why I think people ground grade link to no end. And that would be to his recovery. And that small remark let to this? Then again this is coming from a dude that call me stupid for stating his opinions about Peach and me correcting the with facts from a dude that ACTALLY knows Peach. So I really would not talk if I was you dude and come at me with this.

AND FYI, I check out the speed of his moves. I still dand by what I said when I say his OoS options are not terrible.

Also, when have I said "you boys don't know anything" when talking about this? Man, when I call you "boys" you must have really took that to the heart to even bring it up like THIS. Wha you want me to say sorry for hurting you with that comment? I never would have that something so simple as that could be taken so wrong and seriously.

Once again dude, just admit you and the others think link is so bad cause of his recovery. It's all around that.

 

[RATED]

if mk had warios aerial momentum, ikes jab, samus' zair, foxs usmash, ics grabs, diddys dash attack, warios down b, and charizards side b, he'd be pretty good

you forgot about Snake's Uptilt.

 

[YagamiLight]

you forgot about Snake's Uptilt.

You probably don't need Snake's Up Tilt when you have Fox's Up Smash.

Just sayin'

 

[demonictoonlink]

Nothing ***** Falco's recovery like Snake's Utilt.

Can we give it to him?

 

[Spelt]

snake's utilt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foxes upsmash.
i mean, his upsmash is good and all but compared to snake's utilt it's a joke.
kills earlier, has WAY better range, and speed is about the same with utilt coming out 1 frame faster.
the only situation where usmash is better is oos

 

[Nefarious B]

Tether ledge grabs give you a lot less invincibility than a standard ledge grab. I would imagine that ZSS could still gimp link just fine, though.

Actually we recently found this out that (atleast with ZSS's tether grab) you can wait for a little while then reel in and you gain the standard amount of invincibility iirc. So that would make waiting for link to up b a perfect oportunity to gain full tether invincibility.

I don't know why SFP thinks it's so hard to gimp link with ZS, she has better gimp tools than most of the cast (1st hit fair).

 

[Kitamerby]

Fox's usmash is much stronger than Snake's utilt, sends at a better angle, and can both be done out of a full dash AND directly out of shield.

Snake's utilt has more range, disjoint, and is faster by one or two frames.

 

[Spelt]

i thought both have almost completely vertical knockback?
and aren't you able to DI usmash more?

 

[Kitamerby]

Snake's Utilt sends at around 110 angle iirc, which means you can go faaaaaaaaaar behind him if you DI it. Fox's usmash is ever so slightly more vertical, but sends towards his front instead of behind him iirc.

Not like it matters much when you have a move that kills DDD at like 112 with DI.


Fox's usmash is really, really **** good. Definitely one of the best killing attacks in the game.

 

[Spelt]

Not like it matters much when you have a move that kills DDD at like 112 with DI.

and which one is that? xD

maybe you can di the utilt more than usmash

 

[Kitamerby]

and which one is that? xD

maybe you can di the utilt more than usmash

Fox's Usmash kills everyone with DI iirc between 80-112.

As I recall, Lucario's magic number is 94, which can be made even lower by comboing into the usmash from a dair. :V

I should look up the specific numbers again later or look into them myself at some point...

 

[Spelt]

ohh ok.


I still think utilt is better, but maybe that's because i play snake all the time and think his utilt is stupid frustrating.


when i play fox i barely ever kill with a hyphen smash, oos is always more convenient and a better option to me. and it's very hard to use it oos when your opponent has good spacing.

 

[Shaya]

Fox' usmash is pretty good.

But Snake's utilt imo is a "better" move. A lot less lag comes into play on that one.
The cool down on fox's up smash is horrendous

 

[demonictoonlink]

lol at Snake's Utilt being stronger then Fox's Usmash.

Meh, what if we gave MK both for each thing? Like for his Usmash, Fox's Usmash and Snake's Utilt come out.

 

[Spelt]

i nominate jigg's utilt.
kills faster than her usmash.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Man, if all this happened to MK, I'd probablypick up Yoshi.

 

[Kitamerby]

If all this happened to MK, I'd probably pick up MK.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

This guy is dumb.

He'd obv get banned.

 

[Kitamerby]

Make as much money as you can until he does!

 

[YagamiLight]

Pink Fresh has a legitimate thought process going, though.

Assuming our FrankenMK would be the combination of every desirable move from every character in the game, everyone would know how to combat that particular move from that character. As such, nobody would know how to play against any part of Yoshi (and only Yoshi).

Do you know why? Because nobody wants any part of Yoshi's moveset.

 

[Spelt]

i wouldn't mind egg lay, but i wouldn't give up tornado for it

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

He could have Yoshi's second jump.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Make as much money as you can until he does!

That sounds vaguely familiar...

Pink Fresh has a legitimate thought process going, though.

Assuming our FrankenMK would be the combination of every desirable move from every character in the game, everyone would know how to combat that particular move from that character. As such, nobody would know how to play against any part of Yoshi (and only Yoshi).

Do you know why? Because nobody wants any part of Yoshi's moveset.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF... found out my plan.

Welp, glad that'll never happen.

He could have Yoshi's second jump.

Nah, MK's second jump is ideal for his stupid... well stuff lol.

the vertical he can gain and can lose quickly is necessary for juggling and other crap D:.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What I find interesting is you saying that ZSS (I assume) can't gimp Link. Can't ZSS tether grab the ledge, predict when Link will up b, then ledge snap and wait out link's recovery with invincibility?

As far as I know the invinc doesn't last long enough. If she's over 100% she can tap A halfway through Link's recovery. That **** stays out a surprisingly long time, though. Also, her fair and bair don't beat link's up+b making it hard to hit him out of it. If Link recovers low and makes good use of his specials he should make it back each time vs. ZSS.

Incidentally I think the Link/ZSS match-up is probably in Link's favor on neutrals because his camp game (which usually just OK) is very effective vs. ZSS for basically the same reason Falco's is, and his ground game is very very good, and juggling him is risky because of dair.

 

[MagicJosh]

if mk had warios aerial momentum, ikes jab, samus' zair, foxs usmash, ics grabs, diddys dash attack, warios down b, and charizards side b, he'd be pretty good

to do IC's grabs, you'd need another MK...

Spoiler

sounds good to me

 

[smashkng]

As far as I know the invinc doesn't last long enough. If she's over 100% she can tap A halfway through Link's recovery. That **** stays out a surprisingly long time, though. Also, her fair and bair don't beat link's up+b making it hard to hit him out of it. If Link recovers low and makes good use of his specials he should make it back each time vs. ZSS.

Incidentally I think the Link/ZSS match-up is probably in Link's favor on neutrals because his camp game (which usually just OK) is very effective vs. ZSS for basically the same reason Falco's is, and his ground game is very very good, and juggling him is risky because of dair.

I think the reason it's risky is because ZSS's Uair isn't disjointed compared to other Uairs like Marth, MK and Wario which can hit through Link's Dair if spaced well enough. I've also seen in a vid a Falco using Uair which could also go through it. Link may go even with ZSS but that's only that's only one matchup with someone who is isn't seen very often in tourneys, and the MK matchup is still ridiculously bad. But if Link does so well vs ZSS because of his ground game, shouldn't Snake and Olimar **** ZSS then, who both have a much better ground game than Link?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

1. Uair doesn't even come into play when gimping link
2. No, because they are both garbage in the air compared to Link's dair and very very easy to juggle, and ZSS can jab combo Olimar, and she can very very easily abuse both of their recoveries

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

ZSS can easily juggly Link's dair, it's just so risky and the timing/spacing is harder because she accelerates very fast.

 

[YagamiLight]

As a general rule, even if you CAN stop Link's Dair during the hitbox phase, try to avoid it and punish the postlag.

Making a mistake during the hitbox phase will result in you dying very early. Making a mistake during the time where Link is in cooldown will mean you just didn't punish him. And, some of you, don't try to pretend like it's impossible to botch up that sort of thing. People make mistakes unpredictably and with varying magnitude, so why not take some precaution and minimize the risk?

It's similar advice to what I give people who try to stop Ike's Aether when he is 'in position' (namely close the the optimal distance for a reverse Aether to have the apex of the move at the ledge or, less specifically, below the stage and close to the ledge): If you are not 100% positive in the outcome of what's going to happen should you choose to pick that fight, don't be surprised if the one getting killed is you.

This isn't to say don't ever take the opportunity to beat Link's Dair or Aether but this is simply a cautionary message that sometimes you should be patient and wait a little. Link using Dair means he's above you and that's a poor position. Ike using Aether means he's recovering and that's a poor position as well. Simply: If you have the positional advantage, why are you doing something you don't have to and ****ing it up?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

good links are gonna mind game their FF with dair. Which is why i typically shield, angled up then when they fully commit i spot dodge oos so they hit the floor in delay

 

[Kitamerby]

People taking unnecessary risks is a good 80% of the reason most low tier players are able to win matches.

What????



So when I say "you boys" people get upset and think I am putting them down? WTF? Ok, when I say that I dont mean anything by it. It's like saying "you dudes, You People, you smasher, etc.

Hey Dark.Pch

Just a tip? If you want people to stop taking you so seriously, change your avatar to this.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9656/2943e84e29b6d328947e816.jpg

 

[Spelt]

i find that picture insulting. ):<

 

[Clai]

....have you ever played a samus main? zair is easily one of the best moves in the game. Yay missiles can be powershielded, do you realise samus has tons of frame-traps from that?

Samus IS terrible, but missiles & zair are great & don't rank among her weaknesses. UbB can be SDI'd out of on the first 3 and last 3 hits, that's all. It's not great but it's not terrible either.

I train with a Samus main all the time, and while I admit he's not a good indicator of Samus' true abilities, I've conditioned myself to be able to handle whatever Samus can throw at me.

As for her missiles, it's not that hard to find out when Samus is using them to frame trap you, and thus you can position yourself to avoid such traps.

Missiles and Zair are definitely not part of Samus' weaknesses, but the way that she's designed makes her horribly one-dimensional (She's certainly not going to be using that Zair to create offensive pressure, while Link can use his Zair for that thanks to his fall speed and less knockback on the move), so people who want to beat Samus just have to prepare for that one dimension and when they do, Samus will have nothing to fall back on.

As for up-B, any move that serves as a GTFO Close-Combat move but gets her punished for landing said move is a failure in design. There's really no other way to put it.