The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Supermodel From Paris]

2 people is a pretty good amount of national levelplayers for one character. it's about the same as diddy.

And Diddy for that matter...

 

[demonictoonlink]

I just dont get how one person=the character actually being good. Sonic still sucks and is bad.

Dont you think there needs to be more people actually doing something other than Espy/X?

Judging by your Avatar, I'm guessing you're one of those guys that just plays a low tier so they can say they do and use it as their john.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

lol... I wonder how many other characters have ever taken m2k to game 5 in grand finals

And another thing... If X's performance doesnt warrant a boost in ther tier list for Sonic, I'd like to know what actually DOES. Its complete and utter *********** that sees other characters go above him, yet couldnt dream of doing what he does regularly with sonic.

hurr durrr

do you know x took m2k to last stock 4 times in 5 matches... in grand finals... and actually took that final stock... TWICE? Including a round on RC if you dont mind.

Statistically support lmao. Who needs stats to show what a character is capable of. You can tell me that sonic has one of the lowest damage outputs per attack in the game, and I can tell you Sonic just got 2nd in a big regional... 27 months after the game has come out. no more MU inexperience johns, that excuse lost all meaning long ago.

The argument is not 'Sonic does well vs m2k therefore he should rise'. The argument is that many of the characters above him (especially Sheik and PT) have never done as well as Sonic, and likely never will. So if the tier list is meant to represent how a character can perform in tournament, in what universe is it accurate to say a character that is proven to place well, should be lower than those which never do anything?

Also, All aboard the sonic hype train. Choo choo!

Two things.

1. He didn't win a set v M2K. you're trying to boost a character becuase he took games off M2K. the foundation of your argument is [or seems to be, sorry if i'm misinterpreting. clarify it if I am] that sonic deserves a rise because he took M2k to last game 4 times and won twice.

But.

He did not win a set. He didn't advance in brackets. To determine viability you have to see how far a character can take you. How far you ADVANCE. He won games and all that's nice, but he didn't advance in brakcets. Coming CLOSE is not enough to boost a character.

if the argument is "Characters above him don't do as well", then that is amazingly hard to verify. you do Know snake doesn't do as well against M2k and others right? where is the cutoff point between knowing the MU and the character just flat out being better?

2. Wow @ MU inexperience not being valid. 27 months of metagame advancement. are you trying to say that MU johns are no longer valid because the game has been out long. The metagame advances. The character is now playing differently. '08 MK and '10 MK are not the same. '08 Sonic and '10 Sonic iare not close to the same. the character has advanced and it's advances often, especially one as gimmicky as sonic.

Not to discredit X.

He did amzing with his character, and I commend him. Taking games off M2K and beating Tyrant + DSF are no easy tasks. I just find it a bit odd that you use anamolies to warrant a character boost.

He's trying to put spin on what's already something generally agreed upon to come off as his own new opinion.

jeez.

This guy sounds pretty smart.

I just dont get how one person=the character actually being good. Sonic still sucks and is bad.

Dont you think there needs to be more people actually doing something other than Espy/X?

This guy also sounds pretty smart.

2 people is a pretty good amount of national levelplayers for one character. it's about the same as diddy.

There are a pretty good amount of national class players for diddy if you can include espy and X as national class players.

ADHD
Gnes
Felix
AZ
not sure if you'll include NL but his diddy is national class level.

it's really hard to define who is national class of a character, because national class [for whatever reason in this community] seems to changed based on the character used and not the player.

 

[~TBS~]

Judging by your Avatar, I'm guessing you're one of those guys that just plays a low tier so they can say they do and use it as their john.

Nope. i blame myself for being bad, not the character. But still, as a character, you should realize that sonic's bad. I really should change the avi since it throws off something that isnt true. =/

wooow pink.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

PF, X got second at that regional. I'm not sure what you're talking about... "not advancing in brackets..."?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I just meant for the instance he used.

He's said, "He took M2K to game five, last hit 4 times and beat him twice!"

but that didnt advance him. Should have specified. My mistake.

He did well, but you cant use winning games, not SETS for a character boost.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think you really need to use M2k to support DJB's opinion though. Sonic DOES place a lot better overall than other characters in his tier, and he continues to do it two years later, and isn't falling off as people learn the match-up or anything.

 

[stingers]

PF, AZ and felix cannot beat the likes of tyrant or dojo, sorry >.>

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I don't agree that Sonic has been placing higher than PT [lol reflex]

sheik yes.

but sheik "has better MUs" v the higher tiers sans Pika and ICs.

Something that bothers me is the popularity of the character. Sonic is extremely popular compared to characters of the tier. it's more likely for a sonic to place well than it is, forrr bowser.

bleh. I just wanted to refute the opinion of DJB tbh. I just cant agree with his reasoning

@ stingers: So a national class player is someone who can beat said people in their own region, not place well in nationals?

 

[Suspect]

Dojo hasn't even lost to a sonic o.0

 

[stingers]

a national class player is someone who can beat other national class players i'd say, yeah. X just got 2nd at SIN2 and espy...idk, does he go to big things? lol he beats really good people in any case =/

 

[Blacknight99923]

hurr durrr

do you know x took m2k to last stock 4 times in 5 matches... in grand finals... and actually took that final stock... TWICE? Including a round on RC if you dont mind.

Statistically support lmao. Who needs stats to show what a character is capable of. You can tell me that sonic has one of the lowest damage outputs per attack in the game, and I can tell you Sonic just got 2nd in a big regional... 27 months after the game has come out. no more MU inexperience johns, that excuse lost all meaning long ago.

The argument is not 'Sonic does well vs m2k therefore he should rise'. The argument is that many of the characters above him (especially Sheik and PT) have never done as well as Sonic, and likely never will. So if the tier list is meant to represent how a character can perform in tournament, in what universe is it accurate to say a character that is proven to place well, should be lower than those which never do anything?

Also, All aboard the sonic hype train. Choo choo!

1. 2nd paragraph is purly opinion, when I ask for an objectionable arguement I expect results. Is sonic a good character or do we have a San who does well with a mediocre character? spouting your opinion doesn't futher the debate. Maybe sonic sucked for 27 months because there wasn't a rapid progression in his metagame.... things need to be taken into account.

2. 3rd paragrapgh- again data. Is it jsut X placing well or is it a multitude of sonics.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Judging by your Avatar, I'm guessing you're one of those guys that just plays a low tier so they can say they do and use it as their john.

Uh, he isn't, hes actually really really good with Sonic, your talking to him like hes a random, wtf.

 

[<π]

So.. the proof isn't in the pudding then? If I win a national with sheik it wouldn't matter? lame.

 

[Browny]

</3 you too shaya

Two things.

1. He didn't win a set v M2K. you're trying to boost a character becuase he took games off M2K. the foundation of your argument is [or seems to be, sorry if i'm misinterpreting. clarify it if I am] that sonic deserves a rise because he took M2k to last game 4 times and won twice.

But.

He did not win a set. He didn't advance in brackets. To determine viability you have to see how far a character can take you. How far you ADVANCE. He won games and all that's nice, but he didn't advance in brakcets. Coming CLOSE is not enough to boost a character.

As SFP said, a rather key word was GRAND FINALS. Thats an extremely important fact for you to ignore. Not only did a sonic actually beat multiple #1 ranked PR players to get to winners and grand finals, Sonic actually took 2 matches off when the pressure is at it its absolute highest. You cant even begin to compare a random bracket match to grand finals of a regional... just stop. Well, when you find an example of a lucas getting into grand finals in a regional with some of the best players, then you can continue.

if the argument is "Characters above him don't do as well", then that is amazingly hard to verify. you do Know snake doesn't do as well against M2k and others right? where is the cutoff point between knowing the MU and the character just flat out being better?

the cut off point is when Sonic is placed below a character that can do as well as he can in the right hands. I look at the list and see the cut-off point being PT/sheik and vomit in my throat.

2. Wow @ MU inexperience not being valid. 27 months of metagame advancement. are you trying to say that MU johns are no longer valid because the game has been out long. The metagame advances. The character is now playing differently. '08 MK and '10 MK are not the same. '08 Sonic and '10 Sonic iare not close to the same. the character has advanced and it's advances often, especially one as gimmicky as sonic.

Hahaha. You seem to know sonic better than the people who play him. Anyone will accurately tell you that X's sonic is VERY '08. Im saying no top player, no one who holds top spots on PR lists can claim MU johns this far into the game. Thats just a blanket excuse to cover a whole range of potential issues, the least worrying being that the character is better than given credit for.

Not to discredit X.

He did amzing with his character, and I commend him. Taking games off M2K and beating Tyrant + DSF are no easy tasks. I just find it a bit odd that you use anamolies to warrant a character boost.

I acknowledge this is an anomaly, but the issue is how much bigger of an anomaly it is that PT/sheik/others are above sonic with absolutely... nothing to prove it. If there were an equal amount of anomalies of amazing results from characters in his tier level, I wouldnt have a problem. but there is an ENORMOUS rift between sonic and characters near him. It is larger than an entire tier.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

a national class player is someone who can beat other national class players i'd say, yeah. X just got 2nd at SIN2 and espy...idk, does he go to big things? lol he beats really good people in any case =/

That's not how you define something.

You're saying a national player is established when they beat someone that is national level.

How did the first nationcal class player become a national player? They didn't have any national players to beat, because none were established. The answer to that question will probably the actual definition.

but uhm.

I'm not saying espy and X aren't national level. The last national I re,e,ner Espy attending was Whobo2 where he placed 13th. He beat razer recently.

I just wonder how AZ and Felix arent national, because they might not be able to beat Tyrant/Dojo.

Edit :O

As SFP said, a rather key word was GRAND FINALS. Thats an extremely important fact for you to ignore. Not only did a sonic actually beat multiple #1 ranked PR players to get to winners and grand finals, Sonic actually took 2 matches off when the pressure is at it its absolute highest. You cant even begin to compare a random bracket match to grand finals of a regional... just stop. Well, when you find an example of a lucas getting into grand finals in a regional with some of the best players, then you can continue.

He... didnt win the set. He won other sets. look into that. Don't look at a set he ALMOST won.

Look at the other sets, not one he lost.

wow @ bringing up lucas like he's above sonic lol. I'm not even sure why that was said ._.

the cut off point is when Sonic is placed below a character that can do as well as he can in the right hands. I look at the list and see the cut-off point being PT/sheik and vomit in my throat.

That "In the right hands" goes a long way. who're the right hands? I'm sure reflex could do as well as any sonic in a national. idk about sheik though lol.

Hahaha. You seem to know sonic better than the people who play him. Anyone will accurately tell you that X's sonic is VERY '08. Im saying no top player, no one who holds top spots on PR lists can claim MU johns this far into the game. Thats just a blanket excuse to cover a whole range of potential issues, the least worrying being that the character is better than given credit for.

I do not claim to know sonic better than the people who play him ._.

I heard people on the stream saying he's doing alot of '08 sonic stuff, but I don't really follow his meta; I just happen to have one of the best Sonic's in my crew and we play all the time, so I'm pretty experienced in the MU, and have a good base knowledge of the character.

I died at nobody that holds the number one spot can claim MU johns.
low/mid tier characters are scarce. are you telling me that people should know the JIGGZ and ZELDA mu because they're number one in their respective region?

how many people honestly know the lucas and bowser MU?

PT?

The characters are scarce at a high level.

I acknowledge this is an anomaly, but the issue is how much bigger of an anomaly it is that PT/sheik/others are above sonic with absolutely... nothing to prove it. If there were an equal amount of anomalies of amazing results from characters in his tier level, I wouldnt have a problem. but there is an ENORMOUS rift between sonic and characters near him. It is larger than an entire tier.

There are significantly more high level sonic players than PT/sheik players. the likely hood of said anaomlies are increased. if you take a ratio of top sonic players to top PT/Sheik players, THEN the amount of anamolies are still ENORMOUS, then I can reasonbly see a reason.

bleh.
This is too much for me >.>

 

[Blacknight99923]

</3 you too shaya



As SFP said, a rather key word was GRAND FINALS. Thats an extremely important fact for you to ignore. Not only did a sonic actually beat multiple #1 ranked PR players to get to winners and grand finals, Sonic actually took 2 matches off when the pressure is at it its absolute highest. You cant even begin to compare a random bracket match to grand finals of a regional... just stop. Well, when you find an example of a lucas getting into grand finals in a regional with some of the best players, then you can continue.


bad logic. M2K could have been facing the same pressure. this isn't a valid arguement
the cut off point is when Sonic is placed below a character that can do as well as he can in the right hands. I look at the list and see the cut-off point being PT/sheik and vomit in my throat.



Hahaha. You seem to know sonic better than the people who play him. Anyone will accurately tell you that X's sonic is VERY '08. Im saying no top player, no one who holds top spots on PR lists can claim MU johns this far into the game. Thats just a blanket excuse to cover a whole range of potential issues, the least worrying being that the character is better than given credit for.

again I have to disagree, if you are playing a top player of a mid/lower tier character their metagame is different than that of a random. quite simply the character evolves and so does the match up making this is bad logic. I cannot however comment on _X_ sonic

I acknowledge this is an anomaly, but the issue is how much bigger of an anomaly it is that PT/sheik/others are above sonic with absolutely... nothing to prove it. If there were an equal amount of anomalies of amazing results from characters in his tier level, I wouldnt have a problem. but there is an ENORMOUS rift between sonic and characters near him. It is larger than an entire tier.
so ike and ness should automatically be jumped to a higher tier then right?

my opinons in red

 

[Spelt]

Can we go back to talking about Meta Knight? Sonic doesn't deserve this much attention.

 

[Browny]

youre going to attempt to call me out on bad logic, and then begin by comparing the pressure of a random bracket match vs grand finals of a regional. ok.

 

[Nefarious B]

X is not an anomaly wtf. He's done very well the times when he's gone to Cali as well, for a long period of time. How on earth does an anomaly happen when we're considering 3 of the top MK's on the planet? X is a beast, for sure, but you can't get to #2, beating multiple good players, only to do respectably against the best player in the game, and call it a fluke.

You guys are just proving what SFP and others have been saying, that we hold characters to much higher standards than what we should when considering a rise in the tier list.

 

[Browny]

I think the results of this prove one thing for certain...

Pits potential hasnt even been reached yet, and the next tier list should reflect his future rise.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

X is not an anomaly wtf. He's done very well the times when he's gone to Cali as well, for a long period of time. How on earth does an anomaly happen when we're considering 3 of the top MK's on the planet? X is a beast, for sure, but you can't get to #2, beating multiple good players, only to do respectably against the best player in the game, and call it a fluke.

You guys are just proving what SFP and others have been saying, that we hold characters to much higher standards than what we should when considering a rise in the tier list.

a·nom·a·ly

   /əˈnɒm

ə

li/ Show Spelled[uh-nom-uh-lee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -lies. 1. a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.

2. someone or something anomalous: With his quiet nature, he was an anomaly in his exuberant family.

3. an odd, peculiar, or strange condition, situation, quality, etc.

4. an incongruity or inconsistency.

5. Astronomy . a quantity measured in degrees, defining the position of an orbiting body with respect to the point at which it is nearest to or farthest from its primary.

6. Meteorology . the amount of deviation of a meteorological quantity from the accepted normal value of that quantity.

7. Grammar . irregularity.

The person.

X

is an anomaly,

Unless most Sonic players are as consistent as X.

 

[Nefarious B]

But this placing is not an anomaly in the context of X, as weird as that sounds. That's what I was referring to, you hopefully could have figured that out without a dictionary.

 

[theunabletable]

^I don't remember him ever beating Tyrant in a full set before (he's taken games, but I don't ever recall him taking a set). So that's a first for him, I think.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

X is not an anomaly wtf. He's done very well the times when he's gone to Cali as well, for a long period of time. How on earth does an anomaly happen when we're considering 3 of the top MK's on the planet? X is a beast, for sure, but you can't get to #2, beating multiple good players, only to do respectably against the best player in the game, and call it a fluke.

You guys are just proving what SFP and others have been saying, that we hold characters to much higher standards than what we should when considering a rise in the tier list.

X is not an anomaly wtf. He's done very well the times when he's gone to Cali as well, for a long period of time. How on earth does an anomaly happen when we're considering 3 of the top MK's on the planet? X is a beast, for sure, but you can't get to #2, beating multiple good players, only to do respectably against the best player in the game, and call it a fluke.

X is not an anomaly wtf. He's done very well the times when he's gone to Cali as well, for a long period of time. How on earth does an anomaly happen when we're considering 3 of the top MK's on the planet?

X is not an anomaly wtf.

X is not an anomaly wtf.

The person.

X

is an anomaly,

Unless most Sonic players are as consistent as X.

But this placing is not an anomaly in the context of X, as weird as that sounds. That's what I was referring to, you hopefully could have figured that out without a dictionary.

That's what I was referring to

X is not an anomaly wtf.

Just hoping you know what you said, bro.

 

[Browny]

Rofl.

Yes, that is exactly what NB stated. X is not an anomaly, this is a fact. Continue...?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually I think time will show that Ness is a better, more flexible character than GaW with better match-ups with good characters, but we aren't there yet.

I have a lot of issues about the community's perception of certain characters and how inflexible we tend to be when shown evidence that a character might be better than our pre-conceived notions. We have a lot of "sacred cows" in this community; first, it was Captain Falcon, then it was ZSS, now it is Link and Ness (and to a lesser extent Ike, people are pretty split on Ike).

It's entirely possible that a character can be way, way better than we think it is. It's even possible that they could be several tiers better. There is no way a low or low-mid level character could compete with top players who know the match-up more than once or twice and still win, and yet Shaky and FOW do it. Ness is legit, he has an amazing moveset and workable match-ups. I don't subscribe to the idea that one or two bad match-ups ruins a character anyway.

I don't think Ness is a tough one at all, and I'll explain why.

In this community, we expect a lot more from low and mid tier characters than we do high tier characters when it comes to evaluating how good or bad they are. This isn't really logical. If, say, Ike placed top 10 consistently at regionals and nationals for six months, we'd say "hey it's just the player" even though we already only really have a sprinkling of, say, Pikachu players placing top 10 anywhere. If Ike suddenly got top 3 at a national, we'd change our thinking and maybe move him up five places. For the six months prior, this theoretical character was placing top 10, consistent with other high tier characters (who oftentimes don't really place top 10, most of the time we see a lot of Snakes, MKs, a random Falco and Wario and a Diddy maybe) but we didn't move him at all. This is a little bizarre and tragic. We require characters to dramatically outperform their capabilities to even consider that they might be better than where we've placed them, even though their real rank could be somewhere between those two extremes (and oftentimes is).

I think Ness, ZSS, Link, etc. are really good examples of this and hope that we can move past this in tier list 5.

Nefarious is absolutely correct^^^^^

 

[Browny]

Is there a more definite word than 'absolutely'? coz thats what that is.

Pre-conceived notions will be the death of us all. Where by that I mean, the SBR tier list's credibility.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

He said the placing from X isn't an anomaly in one post.

in another, he said X's PLACING isn't.

His placing, I agree.

X, the person, the sonic player in the grand scale of ALL sonic players, is an anomaly.

 

[Nefarious B]

Sorry, I thought considering what just happened it'd be pretty obvious what I was talking about.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

No problem!

be a bit more clear next time.

I agree with what you meant. :D

Edit: Ehhh. i feel like I'm talklling down to you. or it may come off that way. I'm not thoughhh! Just trying to avoid confusion D:

 

[Browny]

If X is an anomaly, so is just about every other top character mains, especially snake. Theres not much separting the best sonics if you were to rank them, so hes simply the best. not an anomaly.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think the results of this prove one thing for certain...

Pits potential hasnt even been reached yet, and the next tier list should reflect his future rise.

But Pit sucks. Him rising last tier list was silly. He'll go down again imo.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

If X is an anomaly, so is just about every other top character mains, especially snake. Theres not much separting the best sonics if you were to rank them, so hes simply the best. not an anomaly.

D:

whaaa?

X.

looks at his placings. the only sonic comparable is espy.

compared to every sonic.

X's placings are outrageous in his region.

look at snake.

Consistent top 8 placings.

across the country.

I see what you're saying, and I would agree if, and only if, Sonics were placing as well as he is.

The 'best' snakes place about the same in their respective regions.

I would consider X, San, reflex, and Shaky anomalies. One main. in one region. out of alllllllllllllllll the other people playing them.

but of course they are the best with their character lol. I can't deny that.

can't they be the best and be anomalies? D:

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Only if ADHD and Ally are anomalies, since no one else really place as well as they do with those characters. (Gnes lately I guess)

 

[Browny]

I see what you're saying, and I would agree if, and only if, Sonics were placing as well as he is.

What do you expect? for one low tier character to have multiple national-level players?

How many other characters have this? Even top tiers like marth, IC and DDD dont have this lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sheik is much better than Sonic. I'm not sure how anyone could argue against this.

Sonic requires a specific playstyle that you can't really get with any other character. Squirtle is pretty similar to Sheik, I feel. Ivysaur is...unique, but in a bad way, mostly. Charizard often ends up getting played like a worse ROB/DK. Sheik is simple.

Perhaps players prefer the extra work and thought they have to put in, or maybe they're just furry fanboys. *shrugs*

 

[Shaya]

Eh i'm not sure about sheik/sonic.

I think they're around the same, yet at least sonic is more "spread out" in terms of match ups; sheik has perplexities in many of hers.
Like I can tell you now, Sheik is going to have a hard time against JIGGLYPUFF. Her character design just has... issues with her. Top it off with Ice Climbers and Pikachu, and things are awkward.

Sonic is just plain ol 45:55/40:60s with most characters. He just has to outplay the opponent to win (I guess the same can be said for most characters, but I hope the succinctness of the point is implied). Sheik is often not so lucky.

 

[Browny]

Sheik is much better than Sonic. I'm not sure how anyone could argue against this.

Im not sure how anyone could argue that Sheik is better than Sonic.

See what I did there?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sheik is much better than Sonic. I'm not sure how anyone could argue against this.

Call me when Sheik players are getting second in regionals and top 10 in anything.