MK sorta takes care of DK's Dedede MU anyways, doesn't he?
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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Shaya
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YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Well, Meta Knight beats King D3 but keep in mind that the very existence of King D3 means that you can play Donkey Kong viably for a whole set or for a double blind starter pick. That pretty severely limits the character.
Ussi
Smash Legend
its like what Happened to ook except he didn't lose...
Except the stage was just so.....
I don't understand how a single bad MU is enough to put DK so low when he's such a good character otherwise. I mean, ICs have Snake to deal with, don't they? And Dedede himself has MK, not to mention ICs.
REL38
Smash Lord
Except none of those examples are as drastic as D3's grab
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Falco's matchup with both PIkachu and ICs is pretty much unwinnable, I've heard.
Just wondering, but why exactly isn't Dedede's Infinite on DK (let alone other characters) banned?
EDIT: If it is, or I'm just an idiot and have no idea what I'm talking about, let me know. I was told there was an unbanned infinite on DK.
EDIT: If it is, or I'm just an idiot and have no idea what I'm talking about, let me know. I was told there was an unbanned infinite on DK.
Blue Rogue
Smash Ace
Probably the same reason IC's infinites aren't.
You can always not get grabbed and/or switch to a better equipped character for the matchup.
You can always not get grabbed and/or switch to a better equipped character for the matchup.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Relative ease of use and obtainment is not an appropriate indicator of blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah, selective banning, blah blah.
Blah blah, selective banning, blah blah.
it is banned by mlg.
I'm fine with comparing characters and over all aspects of those characters, (match ups, close range and long range games, camp and pressure games etc.) comparing moves gets silly. especially moves that differ as much as projectiles. You find situations where a move is useful and use them there. If you can't use razor leaf like sheik's needles then don't that was my point.
Saying something like Zelda's uptilt has similar knock back is to snakes is a good comparision. Razor leaf is worse than XYZ is a bad one.
I'm fine with comparing characters and over all aspects of those characters, (match ups, close range and long range games, camp and pressure games etc.) comparing moves gets silly. especially moves that differ as much as projectiles. You find situations where a move is useful and use them there. If you can't use razor leaf like sheik's needles then don't that was my point.
Saying something like Zelda's uptilt has similar knock back is to snakes is a good comparision. Razor leaf is worse than XYZ is a bad one.
Ussi
Smash Legend
I feel razor leaf does not apply the pressure other projectiles do offer. With it's slow speed, characters can brush it off as a minor inconvience without any way for ivysaur to capitialize on it.
Looking at a similiar projectile tjolt from a fellow pokemon, it travels on the ground at a easy to keep up with pace. While it's possible to spam it more often, powershielding or clanking is fairly easy. but since Pikachu can send 2 to travel back to back or just form a trap for those going around it and has the ground speed to actually capitialize on that, the projectile actually helps Pikachu out.
Tl:dr Ivysaur who lacks speed to in both in character and in projectile just does not work out.
Looking at a similiar projectile tjolt from a fellow pokemon, it travels on the ground at a easy to keep up with pace. While it's possible to spam it more often, powershielding or clanking is fairly easy. but since Pikachu can send 2 to travel back to back or just form a trap for those going around it and has the ground speed to actually capitialize on that, the projectile actually helps Pikachu out.
Tl:dr Ivysaur who lacks speed to in both in character and in projectile just does not work out.
Maybe not, but some of them are still pretty drastic. Even A and B tier characters have really bad/practically unwinnable MUs, and they're against more prominent characters than Dedede.
IC's isn't unwinnable.
I don't know if you could say the Pika MU is unwinnable but it's still a really bad MU for Falco.
Ivy isn't slow though... Ivy has a relatively fast and very safe moveset. and people have already pointed out a slew of moves with very low start up speeds. the moves that do have long start up generally either have amazing shield stun/push back, range or both.
Ivy's razor leaf slow as it is does it's job of slowing down opponents like needles I believe it is intangible so you can't simply swat it away you have to dodge or shield them if you want to avoid them. the slow move speed and that intangeble trait make it great for slowing fast characters down once they get into your mid range where you will generally our range them.
it's slow movement speed and large hit box makes it a great tool for forcing people off the edge so you can tether. These same traits make it a good vertical zoning tool shutting off recovery paths in ways projectiles like arrows can't.
Focusing on the bads aren't ever really going to help you progress with a character. Its about understanding the weakness how to work around them often times you can even turn those weaknesses into strengths if you are creative enough.
Disagree. Pikachu might still have an advantage if the Pikachu player plays super-campy, but when the chaingrab only works with a ~5% leeway on startup, that's not happening at all if the Falco is smart about it.
Ice Climbers are...frustrating, but at least Falco has the tools to stay away and to gimp them. He's better off than a lot of characters as a result.
Luigi would not be a popular character without King Dedede. Luigi has a lot more problems than that.
DK, maybe, but he still has to deal with Mach Tornado, hah.
As for Ivysaur--Razor Leaf is a relatively unsafe projectile, but that's like saying you shouldn't use Wolf's laser in front of your opponent. Just don't be dumb about it, and it has its uses. You can catch people with recovery carry-over lag and get an easy grab or dash attack (which is a solid KO move). Even with Ivysaur's terrible horizontal aerial mobility, B-Reversing still has its uses for throwing off the opponent. Its main problem is startup, not cooldown.
Frame 22 projectiles aren't the greatest, but its low cooldown means that if you can get it off, it's usually not a bad idea. Throwing it from the air allows you to hit the opponent and have enough speed to be able to get in, at least. Proper use of Razor Leaf applies good pressure against most characters. Grab outranges most quick moves on the ground, so if people try to stuff you with their own jab or grab, you beat them. Dash attack covers spotdodgers and clanks with just about everything (plus, it's a frame 4 move). Bullet Seed is also brilliant against spotdodgers after Razor Leaf, as you can jump into the opponent and bypass the trouble of opponent's SDI'ing the first hit.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
In my region, the DK infinite is usually (always) regulated, so the Dedede vs. DK match-up is often played out and because of that it has been able to evolve somewhat. DK players around here say that DK is tough to grab for Dedede. Even with the infinite banned, though, we don't see a whole lot of high-placing DK players, and we have some of the best in the country in NY/NJ (BUM who is inactive I guess, and Will). I'm of the opinion that DK is sort of a better (big bigger and easier to slap around) Kirby that gets destroyed by a character when left unregulated. He isn't exactly high tier material and is fine in mid tier.
But, I don't see that as necessarily fair. The solution should never be "use a different character." That just avoids the problem.
MLG banning it was a good idea. I hope regions do the same. I can understand the IC CG because its, well, their metagame and main way to kill people, but that isn't the case with D3.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Why would you ban an infinite that has a very minimal effect on the game, only being completely effective against DK, and not ban an infinite that has a huge impact on the game by affecting the entire cast?
And why is the infinite a problem? It'd be on thing if DDD had an infinite on most or all of the cast with his grab range, because that would be centralizing and clearly broken. But against one character? That's called having a bad matchup, and there are plenty of other characters who have to deal with the same thing. See Falco vs anyone with a bad recovery, Marth vs Ness/Lucas, and plenty of others.
Being more "gayable" is what makes characters worse than others in most cases. It doesn't even have to be infinites; DK also gets ***** by tornado, as do many characters. Any tall character gets ****ed by falco's lasers. This isn't grounds for removing those moves either. Since you're a DK main, I suggest you take a step back from your biases and see that there is no way to fairly adjust matchup specific things like how you're suggesting.
And why is the infinite a problem? It'd be on thing if DDD had an infinite on most or all of the cast with his grab range, because that would be centralizing and clearly broken. But against one character? That's called having a bad matchup, and there are plenty of other characters who have to deal with the same thing. See Falco vs anyone with a bad recovery, Marth vs Ness/Lucas, and plenty of others.
Being more "gayable" is what makes characters worse than others in most cases. It doesn't even have to be infinites; DK also gets ***** by tornado, as do many characters. Any tall character gets ****ed by falco's lasers. This isn't grounds for removing those moves either. Since you're a DK main, I suggest you take a step back from your biases and see that there is no way to fairly adjust matchup specific things like how you're suggesting.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
The fact that with no real practice and minimal skill, you can just cp d3 against a dk and infinite for the win.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Why is the amount of skill a factor for banning anything? MK is widely considered to be one of the easiest characters to pick up and play. There's a reason why you don't see anyone with any credibility arguing that as a point for banning him, and it's because it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is, if it's broken it's broken.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
You can't just choose mk and win high level competitions, but you can just choose d3 and beat high level dks. That's the difference.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
You can't even pick up DDD to beat a high-leveled DK unless you're a high-leveled player yourself.
Regardless, lower technical difficult just means that the MU is reflected in lower level play, that doesn't change it's effect at the upper levels of play, so as long as it's humanly possible, technical difficulty is irrelevant.
Regardless, lower technical difficult just means that the MU is reflected in lower level play, that doesn't change it's effect at the upper levels of play, so as long as it's humanly possible, technical difficulty is irrelevant.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
And that ease is the reason why DK has a low(ish) tier position. A good character with a horrible matchup makes a mediocre character in tourney play, and how well you should reasonably expect to do with a character in tournament play is what the tier list is supposed to show.
If you really think ease of CPing is an argument for banning something, you should probably get rid of the entire top tier since they all negate bad characters in this game. Now I want you to think about it this way. If DK had a 20-80 matchup against DDD, but there was no infinite, would it be a problem? Because if that's a problem to you, then you have a lot of work to do to balance every bad matchup in the game. If it's not a problem to you, then I'd ask, why is the method of hard countering a character such a big deal if the result is still a hard counter?
If you really think ease of CPing is an argument for banning something, you should probably get rid of the entire top tier since they all negate bad characters in this game. Now I want you to think about it this way. If DK had a 20-80 matchup against DDD, but there was no infinite, would it be a problem? Because if that's a problem to you, then you have a lot of work to do to balance every bad matchup in the game. If it's not a problem to you, then I'd ask, why is the method of hard countering a character such a big deal if the result is still a hard counter?
Are there any examples of this? A low level player beating a great DK just by picking D3. Just wondering.
Yeah, take Ook vs Mikehaze for example. Mikehaze is actually a good player and even he couldn't just pick D3 and auto win vs. DK.
MysteriousSilver
Smash Ace
Tell that to Ook and MikeHaze.
You have to remember the infinite was banned + they were playing on green greens.
Also, mikeHAZE has SERIOUS problems with matchups he doesn't play often. :/
o-Serin-o
I think 56 nights crazy
Why does everyone think that the ICs CG takes skill?
It's not hard at all, really. Just learn what to do, then learn differences in weight and bam! You're lain.
It's not hard at all, really. Just learn what to do, then learn differences in weight and bam! You're lain.
You still have to learn what to do to get a grab and prevent your opponent from doing anything when you don't have a grab. That's not hard, either, when you know what to do, though.
MysteriousSilver
Smash Ace
In all honesty, I understand this, and don't really think that DK vs. D3 is anywhere near anything resembling even, but it was still awesome and I wanted to draw (more) attention to it.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Mikehaze didnt know anything about the MU or he didnt know how green greens works as he could have stopped chain grabbing when he wall CG DK and the tree started blowing wind in the characters direction
AFAIK, it's thought that if you pick D3, even if you have no experience with him, or MU experience, you can beat DK easily, since all you have to do is get one grab (and people look at D3's grab range, and DK is without a projectile, etc.). That match is an example of that mentality being false.
This mikehaze thing everyone keeps bringing up, didn't mike almost win but blew up on a bomb accidentally? And at that point could've killed? This example would be consistent with said mentality.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
That match isn't even a good example because the infinite is banned. What's your point?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Yes, but that isn't exactly DK-specific. Dedede can wall-infinite nearly every character, IIRC.
I don't think he could've killed him at that point.
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