The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[TheReflexWonder]

Especially against Ganondorf.

"Oh, he has no fast moves? He'll either take my jab/grab/abusable move, or he'll roll away and still get punished." Decisions, decisions...

 

[Conviction]

I think so... yeah. Gdorf is WAY~ better than people think. mine isn't amazing but in the hands of someone who understands his moveset... a few good reads and baits can lead to a stock.

in the hands of someone who understands his moveset... a few good reads and baits can lead to a stock

understands his moveset

a few good reads and baits can lead to a stock

a few good reads and baits

Universal logic, can be said about any character.

Fail.

 

[Espy Rose]

Universal logic, can be said about any character.

Fail.

Hey <3, you know who else can get a few reads in and take a stock?
Everybody.

You're too slow!!

 

[Conviction]

You're too slow!!

Usmashes during taunt

>.> sorry I didn't notice i was ninja'd I was reading then I saw that post then, I had to respone didn't pay attention to anything below it.

 

[Chuee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfIIyvhEQy4

 

[Conviction]

5 moves lol ^

 

[TheReflexWonder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfIIyvhEQy4

 

[Conviction]

Ivy spiking MK>Ganon taking Snake to Sudden Death imo (even though technically ganon did win)

 

[Justblaze647]

I love you Reflex... You're my hero

 

[<π]

Only for <3.

Hey <3, you know who else can get a few reads in and take a stock?
Everybody.

lol, screw you guys XD.

Most characters aren't going to get 30+ damage off of a spot dodge read. Gannon will. a few read IE 4 or five aren't going to be a stock for MK unless you are playing... gannondorf against him or something.

Regardless I said that to say this. It isn't character as much as it is player. If I know where your opponents holes are and how to reach them with character X then I'll win every-time if you exploit that knowledge.

a few good reads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKIxu669Y_A&feature=related

jerks... (I still love you though )

 

[starfox67]

so

[ b] so your trying to say you know peoples moves if they don't try hard wow XD your good :]

 

[<π]

I am good

that sentence doesn't make sense to me though. If you understand how your opponent plays their habits what they do in certain situations etc. read into and capitalize on those habits it doesn't matter much if you are playing MK or Jigglypuff you have a huge head start in the match. Character match ups are important. but even beyond that is understand the person behind the controller is much much more important.

 

[Justblaze647]

The problem is that even if you are able to read your opponent perfectly, let's say with Ganon, he may not always be able to punish their bad habits because he's... well... Ganon

 

[<π]

I agree, and that's true for every character even my goddess of punishment sheik, but you'd be shocked. Gdorf isn't as hopelessly slow as tiers would have you believe.

 

[Justblaze647]

I believe in my own experience.

And I do think Ganon is exactly as helplessly slow as the tier list portrays him to be. At least 65% of the time while trying to punish mistakes and bad habits, his moves get PS'd and/or spot dodged...

 

[<π]

I can't really argue with that. Hopefully I can show you some gdorf stuff when I get up there. Most gannon's I see have no idea how to condition and bait reactions except out of murder choke. gdorf has a lot of safe on shield and safe on dodge options he can exploit the people just don't use like sh uair/dair edge canceled murder kick/murder choke.

I'm not trying to say Gdorf is a god or even that he is good, lol. But even the worst character in the game has options and things the can exploit to force situations where they have the advantage. gdorf has a horrible OOS punishment game. but unlike most of the cast he will make you think twice about camping your shield and that in and of itself opens up options...

I don't know. I don't play this game bassed on what other people say that much is obvious. I set my own limits and come to my own conclusions even if they are very unpopular.

 

[Kitamerby]

lol, screw you guys XD.

Most characters aren't going to get 30+ damage off of a spot dodge read. Gannon will. a few read IE 4 or five aren't going to be a stock for MK unless you are playing... gannondorf against him or something.

Explain to me why anyone would ever need to spotdodge against Ganon again unless he just used SideB and you're doing it on reaction?

Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLUSBrHe8Yw

 

[Laem]

to dodge moves

easy punish at the risk of getting read

 

[Kitamerby]

Why? Unless you're Falcon or a tether, you should be able to just shieldgrab anything he does...

Shield camp ganon and he's useless. :x

 

[Clai]

gdorf has a lot of safe on shield.

This statement is false. Ganon only has a few moves that are safe on shield and most of the time that's only true if he spaces them perfectly, which is nigh impossible to do because of how slow Ganondorf is compared to everyone else.

The problem is that even if you are able to read your opponent perfectly, let's say with Ganon, he may not always be able to punish their bad habits because he's... well... Ganon

Good players will know which habits they can punish and which habits they can't punish and for those that they can't punish, they will just choose the best option at their disposal and wait for something that they can punish. It's all part of accepting a character's weaknesses.

Does this argument apply to Ganondorf?

I use that argument all the time. Anyone who is truly determined to win with the character they love will never use their character as an excuse for losing. You have studied the character, accepted their weaknesses while embracing their strengths, and exhausted all possible options and strategies while practicing your matchups. If your character has nearly unwinnable matchups, you've accepted that fate when you've decided to main that character and you're either going to have to take the lumps and learn everything about salvaging that matchup of else you quit and prove to everyone that you have a weak mind and don't have the dedication towards your character.

No johns.

 

[Laem]

Why? Unless you're Falcon or a tether, you should be able to just shieldgrab anything he does...

Shield camp ganon and he's useless. :x

gdorf has a lot of safe on shield and safe on dodge options he can exploit the people just don't use like sh uair/dair edge canceled murder kick/murder choke.

lets first get the facts straight before we jump to conclusions shall we now

 

[Katakiri]

Ganon is definitely garbage on the ground, but he's surprisingly solid in the air. I've been messing around with him for a few months now and, he's honestly amazing. Not good at all, but amazing. He has a lot of tricks that work really well, but it's mainly just a matter of if your opponent is wise to them or not. He gets ***** by the top tier (minus Snake) regardless, but his mid-tier MUs aren't all that bad in practice if those tricks get thrown out at the right times.

I'm no Ganon main, but I'd MM anyone that says they can just shield Ganon's attacks. I'll enjoy all those B-Air fakeouts to Aerial Flame Chokes and Double D-Airs.

Ganon's buffers are pretty underestimated. (Then again, it IS Ganon after all.)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ganon is definitely garbage on the ground, but he's surprisingly solid in the air. I've been messing around with him for a few months now and, he's honestly amazing. Not good at all, but amazing. He has a lot of tricks that work really well, but it's mainly just a matter of if your opponent is wise to them or not. He gets ***** by the top tier (minus Snake) regardless, but his mid-tier MUs aren't all that bad in practice if those tricks get thrown out at the right times.

I'm no Ganon main, but I'd MM anyone that says they can just shield Ganon's attacks. I'll enjoy all those B-Air fakeouts to Aerial Flame Chokes and Double D-Airs.

Ganon's buffers are pretty underestimated. (Then again, it IS Ganon after all.)

I think you should pump your brakes on the MM's you'll lose a lot of money that way.

 

[Katakiri]

I think you should pump your brakes on the MM's you'll lose a lot of money that way.

That I would. But with all the money I make from propane, I have some to throw around.

 

[Kofu]

He gets beaten pretty badly by Snake, too, largely because Snake is everything Ganon is, but better. Plus his Down Throw is evil T_T

Well, almost everything. Except THE KING OF EVIL

 

[Z'zgashi]

wario's not terribly hard, or is he? (by this i mean, yes, he's still really hard to beat, but compared to the rest of the tops)

 

[Kofu]

Wario has a (very difficult to pull off) Down Throw infinite on Ganon that starts working at 0% :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

well yes but it rarely happens for a long period of time

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wario has a (very difficult to pull off) Down Throw infinite on Ganon that starts working at 0% :/

Wario has a 0-90 buffered dthrow CG on him.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm no Ganon main, but I'd MM anyone that says they can just shield Ganon's attacks. I'll enjoy all those B-Air fakeouts to Aerial Flame Chokes and Double D-Airs.

Ganon's buffers are pretty underestimated. (Then again, it IS Ganon after all.)

The problem is that you can see Aerial Flame Chokes coming due to its start up animation and OoS attacks can smack Ganon if his Dair hits your shield. Even if he jumps away to bait a reaction and then go for a Dair afterwards, hes in danger of either landing with a laggy Dair or the person could just roll away and Ganon can't even punish them because of how slow he is

Ganon's Bair and Dair autocancelled are worrying because of their nasty knockback but all you have to do is get close to Ganon and then he's in trouble

 

[<π]

lol sheild grab gdorf? tethers have it easier than most of the rest of the cast. he is slow but he has decent range even on his ground moves unless you are spacing really bad you have more than enough range to avoid grab OOS. It's like sheild grabbing bowser, you guys talk about me? watch a competent Gdorf play any other competent player and count the number of shield grabs. Even if he had one safe on sheild option (and he has more) that all he needs. you can rinse and repeat that all day and nevr get punished OOS.

you can't sheild camp gdorf like that just because of his big range eventually you are forced to jump out of shield or roll if he just stands near you outside of your grab range right? And even if his grab is bad its always an option and his throws all do decent damage. (unlike horrible zelda's lol) you still have your dash in mix ups every character has dash in spot dodge, dash in shield, dash in SH aerial, dash in grab, dash grab, etc.

again I'm not saying Gdorf is amazing but you are cutting out way~ too many of the things he actually has. Even worst-in-the-game-Gannondorf has the tools to win matches even against good players thats all I'm saying.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

lol sheild grab gdorf? tethers have it easier than most of the rest of the cast. he is slow but he has decent range even on his ground moves unless you are spacing really bad you have more than enough range to avoid grab OOS. It's like sheild grabbing bowser, you guys talk about me? watch a competent Gdorf play any other competent player and count the number of shield grabs. Even if he had one safe on sheild option (and he has more) that all he needs. you can rinse and repeat that all day and nevr get punished OOS.

you can't sheild camp gdorf like that just because of his big range eventually you are forced to jump out of shield or roll if he just stands near you outside of your grab range right? And even if his grab is bad its always an option and his throws all do decent damage. (unlike horrible zelda's lol) you still have your dash in mix ups every character has dash in spot dodge, dash in shield, dash in SH aerial, dash in grab, dash grab, etc.

again I'm not saying Gdorf is amazing but you are cutting out way~ too many of the things he actually has. Even worst-in-the-game-Gannondorf has the tools to win matches even against good players thats all I'm saying.

Hey! What did I say about making fun of Zelda!?!?!?

 

[<π]

her grab game is really really bad......

Zelda her self is a sexy beast. mentioning her is prob gonna open up a whole new can of worms though XD but you need to come up here for a spell so we can just play chat and train up.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I like her grab game, I think of it just like Sheik's lol.

If I had the patience for a can of worms, I'd be glad to yell but I don't lol and yes, we definitely need to get some more training......Renki too (Ask him about CEO!).

 

[Renki]

I like her grab game, I think of it just like Sheik's lol.

If I had the patience for a can of worms, I'd be glad to yell but I don't lol and yes, we definitely need to get some more training......Renki too (Ask him about CEO!).

Hey hey, CEO was just bad. I played like ****. I've tightened up since then.


On topic, Zelda's grab game sucks, and her recovery is umm...bad. I do however think Zelda isn't 3rd worst or bottom tier for that matter.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Glad to hear!

Her recovery isn't bad, just terribly punishable. However, if you look from just a recovery standpoint, it'll get the job done a lot.

The grab game isn't much to behold but with some smarts and patience, throws can end up racking really well imo.

 

[<π]

zelda's down throw is beastly~ but her grab is horrible... I think it's the worst in the game...

 

[Shaya]

11 frames? non-tether?

I'd say it is.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Oh well, just gotta work with what I'm given.

 

[<π]

^
Wow... look at that the correct mindset. don't see that everyday.