The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Shaya]

Because it isn't viable

 

[#HBC | Scary]

well that's not nice lol.

 

[<π]

lol. the correct mindset isn't viable Ed... rats. lets just pick up MK, he is viable!

 

[Shaya]

I'm a blunt person
It's a shame zelda has both yoshi and roy syndrome.

Respect and dues given to those who succeed though.

<3's a tier ***** compared to a zelda user though.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I can't MK to save my life...........I like beating them up though with sparkles and needles and stuff. It works, just need MOAR patience

 

[<π]

I'm a blunt person
It's a shame zelda has both yoshi and roy syndrome.

Respect and dues given to those who succeed though.

<3's a tier ***** compared to a zelda user though.

i use zelda too.

my MK is pretty bad... that said I could beat a lot of people before I even start playing just by putting the cursor on the character. People mindsets are so easily shattered by MK.

 

[Shaya]

More like most people's options are shattered by MK

 

[rathy Aro]

I like beating them up though with sparkles and needles and stuff. It works

My hero.

So since we're on the topic. Why is Zelda so low and is she likely to see a rise on the next tier list?

 

[RESET Vao]

One of the things is, two of her best/main killing moves are F-Smash and U-Smash.

Both can actually be DI'd out of with very little effort.

Although, I admit; I've no idea how to DI out of either.

It's just like Pikachu's D-Smash would be one of his best moves, if it wasn't so easily DI'd out of.

I've got nothing else, half of me thinks she's just low to create the 'triforce tier' joke.

 

[Justblaze647]

Haha Your name is so win, Rick

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It is actually next to impossible to SDI out of usmash. It can be done (I've done it once!) but the move is specifically programmed to make it very very hard.

 

[Kole]

..We're talking about Zelda's Usmash here, right?

 

[<π]

More like most people's options are shattered by MK

pfff not mine~


Zelda is very safe.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

..We're talking about Zelda's Usmash here, right?

Uh, yes?

This isn't news, as far as I know. Zelda's up smash (if you check her PAC file) has a value that is set very low in order to prevent people from SDIing it. I mean, it can be done, but not really.

 

[RESET Vao]

SF Paris. It's not THAT hard. Just nobody knows how to do it.

I used to main Zelda and I stopped using her when a few people kept DI'n out of it. >:V

 

[Purple]

SF Paris. It's not THAT hard. Just nobody knows how to do it.

I used to main Zelda and I stopped using her when a few people kept DI'n out of it. >:V

inb4someonesaysyousuckatbrawl

:V

 

[AfroTwist ShadowPie]

It's all from easy to impossible, depending on the character.

Boozer for instance aint ever gettin out of dat attack.

 

[rathy Aro]

Just because two of her moves can be DI'ed doesn't make her a bad character. >.>

From what I've been hearing it has to do with her inability to camp and her horrid approach, but that's kinda vague. Anyone want to elaborate. I feel like Zelda isn't that much worse than she was before. She can still space fsmash even if u di it. She still has dtilt and dsmash. Utilt isn't really that hard to kill with (just takes one fairly easy read). The occasional LK helps. So on and so forth. She seems very solid to me.

 

[RESET Vao]

I didn't say it made her a bad character, please read my post before you point elbows, sir.

I was merely saying that I felt that was one of the things that put her down there.

 

[Kole]

It's all from easy to impossible, depending on the character.

Boozer for instance aint ever gettin out of dat attack.

Yeah, I might just be able to SDI it 9 times out of 10 because of the characters I use actually

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

With both ZSS and Peach I find SDIing it to be very difficult but not totally impossible.

 

[RESET Vao]

I'm pretty sure the tier list takes the fact it's escapable and just leaves it as that.

 

[T-block]

I think SFP is right... you can SDI the initial hit(s?) down and escape for smaller characters, but if you get caught in it, it's pretty much impossible to get out. I could be wrong though.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If up-smash can be reliably DI'd out of, there goes her aerial defensive game. That said it depends on how late the opponent gets hit, where in the move the opponent gets hit, and the character they're using.


Since she sucks OOS that's a major issue (unless facing backward, sweetspotted bair OOS is tight as hell), she's gotta beat people trying to approach her with hitboxes instead of shielding like most of the cast.



When people say she can't camp it's cause her projectile is horribad, but that doesn't mean that she can't camp anymore, now that people are learning to PS, but she has to be ahead to do it.

As far as approaches, she has a lot of difficulty effectively threatening a shielding opponent due to her approaches that threaten shield being easy to beat on reaction and nothing bar nair is safe on shield.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

If her usmash is staled it deals <1% damage which makes it unsdi-able

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If up-smash can be reliably DI'd out of, there goes her aerial defensive game. That said it depends on how late the opponent gets hit, where in the move the opponent gets hit, and the character they're using.


Since she sucks OOS that's a major issue (unless facing backward, sweetspotted bair OOS is tight as hell), she's gotta beat people trying to approach her with hitboxes instead of shielding like most of the cast.



When people say she can't camp it's cause her projectile is horribad, but that doesn't mean that she can't camp anymore, now that people are learning to PS, but she has to be ahead to do it.

As far as approaches, she has a lot of difficulty effectively threatening a shielding opponent due to her approaches that threaten shield being easy to beat on reaction and nothing bar nair is safe on shield.

I'll disagree with this Pika's dsmash is balls easy to SDI but that doesn't prevent them from doing the move. Just because something is SDI'able doesn't mean you shouldn't use it nor does it mean that your opponent will constantly SDI the move. Nair OoS and JCUS are not bad OoS options at all man.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pikachu's d-smash is still useful because SDIing out doesn't mean that it didn't serve it's purpose, similar to why pit's uair doesn't need to have more then one hit impact to be good.


SDIing Zelda's upsmash is pretty much guaranteed punishment though.



And people don't SDI in this game because most of the community sucks (myself included btw).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pikachu's d-smash is still useful because SDIing out doesn't mean that it didn't serve it's purpose, similar to why pit's uair doesn't need to have more then one hit impact to be good.


SDIing Zelda's upsmash is pretty much guaranteed punishment though.



And people don't SDI in this game because most of the community sucks (myself included btw).

LoL this is true.,

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just because two of her moves can be DI'ed doesn't make her a bad character. >.>

From what I've been hearing it has to do with her inability to camp and her horrid approach, but that's kinda vague. Anyone want to elaborate. I feel like Zelda isn't that much worse than she was before. She can still space fsmash even if u di it. She still has dtilt and dsmash. Utilt isn't really that hard to kill with (just takes one fairly easy read). The occasional LK helps. So on and so forth. She seems very solid to me.

The problem with Zelda is that most characters, in a competitive sense, can effectivly get some quick damage on her by punishing her slow moves and then sit/camp at the other side of the stage and wait for her to do something. Din's Fire is absolutely useless because its so telegraphed you could make yourself a sandwich and still probably get back in time to shield it (well, maybe not that much time ). It doesn't force approaches. D Tilt is only good close up and you can DI away from it or use a projectile/OoS attack to stop her using it. D Smash is punishable on block and Up Tilt might have kill power but its slow and veeeery punishable

So the clock is ticking away, Zelda is losing by stocks/percent and Zelda's opponent is sat on the other side of the stage. She MUST approach. Ok, so she doesn't actually have to approach but what else is she going to do except lose? And Zelda has biiiiig problems when she starts approaching. Her aerials are all tiny bar Uair (but who the heck would approach with Zelda's Uair?) and Nair can be punished OoS and approaching in the air usually gives you the most freedom to move around...except Zelda doesn't move around very well, causing even more problems. Neither her air game nor ground game have the fluidity that say Snake and Wario have

Up Smash and F Smash simply do not cut it. Every character has their good moves which at times are painfully obvious to see coming but there's a big difference between the move being predictable and the move being punishable. And Zelda's good moves (paticularly Up Smash) are easy to punish


Zelda used to be high in the tier list because people sucked and Brawl wasn't as campy as it used to be and thats when Zelda starts to do well - when people start approaching her and risk running into or getting poked by her long lasting moves. As the game has become more and more campy (and I feel its going to get even more campy), Zelda just doesn't have the tools to do well against seriously campy players intent on winning no matter what they have to do. She hasn't gotten worse - everyone else has just become leagues better

 

[Blacknight99923]

if player error is taken out of the equation regarding SDI and Psing zelda is a really bad character even if every thing is perfectly spaced. which is something a lot of high tiers don't have an issue with

 

[Z'zgashi]

I know this will never happen (because its freaking nintendo) but that would be pretty awesome if they sent out a patch for brawl that tried to even out all the characters, like SSF4 did

 

[Blacknight99923]

hence B- b+ and balanced brawl.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The problem with Zelda is that most characters, in a competitive sense, can effectivly get some quick damage on her by punishing her slow moves and then sit/camp at the other side of the stage and wait for her to do something. Din's Fire is absolutely useless because its so telegraphed you could make yourself a sandwich and still probably get back in time to shield it (well, maybe not that much time ). It doesn't force approaches. D Tilt is only good close up and you can DI away from it or use a projectile/OoS attack to stop her using it. D Smash is punishable on block and Up Tilt might have kill power but its slow and veeeery punishable

So the clock is ticking away, Zelda is losing by stocks/percent and Zelda's opponent is sat on the other side of the stage. She MUST approach. Ok, so she doesn't actually have to approach but what else is she going to do except lose? And Zelda has biiiiig problems when she starts approaching. Her aerials are all tiny bar Uair (but who the heck would approach with Zelda's Uair?) and Nair can be punished OoS and approaching in the air usually gives you the most freedom to move around...except Zelda doesn't move around very well, causing even more problems. Neither her air game nor ground game have the fluidity that say Snake and Wario have

Up Smash and F Smash simply do not cut it. Every character has their good moves which at times are painfully obvious to see coming but there's a big difference between the move being predictable and the move being punishable. And Zelda's good moves (paticularly Up Smash) are easy to punish


Zelda used to be high in the tier list because people sucked and Brawl wasn't as campy as it used to be and thats when Zelda starts to do well - when people start approaching her and risk running into or getting poked by her long lasting moves. As the game has become more and more campy (and I feel its going to get even more campy), Zelda just doesn't have the tools to do well against seriously campy players intent on winning no matter what they have to do. She hasn't gotten worse - everyone else has just become leagues better

The problem with Zelda is there isn't a san level player playing her. She's a good character someone just needs to show it.

 

[Thinkaman]

The problem with Zelda is there isn't a san level player playing her. She's a good character someone just needs to show it.

I don't buy that. Zelda is a much more rigid and fundamentally restricted character than Ike. She is probably the most poorly designed character in the game in terms of total options, even if Ganondorf's options end up worse.

 

[<π]

The problem with Zelda is there isn't a san level player playing her. She's a good character someone just needs to show it.

Watch ed (a.k.a ScaryLB) and Riot (a.k.a GodatHand??)

Ed come from FL so... of course he is good. he kind of force fed a lot of my negetive comments about zelda. her game isn't as linear as people beileve.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Zelda is terrible.

She's worse than Lucas. >_>

 

[Justblaze647]

NL has led me to believe that Lucas is not all that bad. Sure, he seems gimmicky at first, but once you really study the character, you'll see the he is more mindgame oriented than anything else

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't buy that. Zelda is a much more rigid and fundamentally restricted character than Ike. She is probably the most poorly designed character in the game in terms of total options, even if Ganondorf's options end up worse.

What makes her a restricted character ? How are her options bad?

Watch ed (a.k.a ScaryLB) and Riot (a.k.a GodatHand??)

Ed come from FL so... of course he is good. he kind of force fed a lot of my negetive comments about zelda. her game isn't as linear as people beileve.

I've seen them both play and my statement is still correct.

Zelda is terrible.

She's worse than Lucas. >_>

......

 

[Conviction]

This discussion is getting old. AL you keep on aking how so then they respond, then you dimiss it then some one will something about Zelda then cycle repeats.

Plus if some one just gave examples of "San level" Zelda's shouldn't it be reflecting in her tourney results?

EDIT: I don't see it. Crow even combined her with Shiek.

C'mon, Ankoku, update.

Since people have been waiting so long, here's my unofficial post-May update (MLG Columbus/June tourneys not included):

Meta Knight rank: 32%
4996 (+655)
(Non-M2K MKs: 3981)
-----
Ally and ADHD rank: 23%
2408 (+204)
(Non-Ally Snakes: 1668)
1189 (-92)
(Non-ADHD Diddys: 668)
-----
Senselessly popular rank: 15%
859 (+90)
740 (-32)
680 (-80)
-----
Pretty good rank: 13%
472 (-32)
446 (+26)
437 (+20)
362 (+220) !!
313 (-44)
-----
Passable rank: 10%
244 (+38)
219 (+77)
208 (+2)
195 (-76)
187 (+13)
186 (-41)
183 (-9)
170 (+5)
-----
Questionable rank: 4.7%
151 (+40)
123 (+13)
100 (-64) !!
99 (-22)
91 (even)
:shiek: + + /:shiek: 88 (+3)
82 (-13)
-----
Bad rank: 1.4%
61 (-14) (don't forget MLG Columbus is not in this list)
59 (+10)
55 (+4)
42 (+10)
-----
Fail rank: 0.27%
22 (-10)
20 (+14)
-----
Epic fail rank: 0.30%
18 (-3)
15 (-2)
14 (+1)
-----
Jigglypuff rank: 0.04%
6 (+3)

 

[Shaya]

Umm hur durr

G tier is "yoshi syndrome extreme tier".

She also has a nearly useless side b.
An Up B that can only be used as a recovery (yes I've seen some fancy use of it, but can you argue it's viable?); but it's one of those things that won't easily sweet spot, etc etc
b has invincibility but is generally very slow and hence isn't that great at being an anti projectiler in the first place.
down b happens to be one of her best moves though, shame it has noticeable start up and cool down.

Dtilt isn't bad, but not great.
Ftilt and utilt aren't spectacular and easily usable.

she has a good dash attack, usmash.