The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Umm hur durr

G tier is "yoshi syndrome extreme tier".

She also has a nearly useless side b.
An Up B that can only be used as a recovery (yes I've seen some fancy use of it, but can you argue it's viable?); but it's one of those things that won't easily sweet spot, etc etc
b has invincibility but is generally very slow and hence isn't that great at being an anti projectiler in the first place.
down b happens to be one of her best moves though, shame it has noticeable start up and cool down.

Dtilt isn't bad, but not great.
Ftilt and utilt aren't spectacular and easily usable.

she has a good dash attack, usmash.

That's what's practice is for my dood. Also sheik sucks.

 

[Conviction]

Not as much as Zelda.

 

[Z'zgashi]

why must it be refered to as yoshi syndrome lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

Cause Yoshi ALWAYS has a horibad shield.

 

[Z'zgashi]

but you dont have to rub it in lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sheik's so good.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

NL has led me to believe that Lucas is not all that bad. Sure, he seems gimmicky at first, but once you really study the character, you'll see the he is more mindgame oriented than anything else

He's honestly not that bad.

He has range issues, but the only MUs where they are apparent is marth and peach.

His OoS game is kinda lacking as well.

Zelda is terrible.

She's worse than Lucas. >_>

......

:D

 

[Chuee]

He's honestly not that bad.

He has range issues, but the only MUs where they are apparent is marth and peach.

His OoS game is kinda lacking as well.



:D

Well, his ground game doesn't have much range either =/

 

[Justblaze647]

lol d smash wins

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He has range issues, but the only MUs where they are apparent is marth and peach.

What, now Ike doesn't have range either? Or D3? Or DK? Or MK even?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think his point is that in other MUs he can get inside, it's those MUs where the range really causes a problem.


Of course TBH it's worse for the MK MU.

but you dont have to rub it in lol

Yes I do, lol

 

[Chuee]

What, now Ike doesn't have range either? Or D3? Or DK? Or MK even?

Ike's ranged moves are slow bro.
Well, except Bair.
Oh, and Lucas' Fair outranges MK's.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And D3? DK? MK's other moves? What moves does Lucas have that outrange say, Ike's retreating Fair/Nair? Ike's nair outranges Lucas's nair by a hair if that helps the comparison.

 

[Chuee]

And D3? DK? MK's other moves? What moves does Lucas have that outrange say, Ike's retreating Fair/Nair? Ike's nair outranges Lucas's nair by a hair if that helps the comparison.

Then if Ike's Nair slightly outranges ours, then our Fair should outrange it.
Fair is pretty slow so you can PS it.
D3's Bair outranges us, DK's Bair does too.
MK's other moves?
Thats his ground game and vertical air moves?
He outranges you on the ground and vertically in the air, but if we're talking about who outranges Lucas on the ground it's a lot of characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol PSing argument to try to cover your lack of range. I didn't ask if it was "easy" to PS or not (not something I see often I should add), I was asking if Lucas has any answer to it range wise. Like, anything even close to that range like Marth's/D3's Fair.

And any of MK's moves really. All of his moves have a decent amount. As well as D3's and DK's other moves.

 

[adumbrodeus]

...


*watches bad theorycrafting*

*gets popcorn*



Here's a hint, when you're just talking about what move beats what move in certain attributes, you're bound to get a bad impression of what actually works. Talk about mix-up potential.


For example, Chuee, the fact that Ike's fair can be PS'd on reaction probably means he's not gonna use it as a poke, however that doesn't mean he can't use a retreating fair to beat your fair as a read.



Regardless in terms of MK, he uses grounded moves to beat your fair's range.

 

[Kole]

That's why he gets destroyed by Marth, D3, and DK

 

[Chuee]

lol PSing argument to try to cover your lack of range. I didn't ask if it was "easy" to PS or not (not something I see often I should add), I was asking if Lucas has any answer to it range wise. Like, anything even close to that range like Marth's/D3's Fair.

lol that was actually stupid of you to ask if Lucas has anything that outranges Ike's Fair. Ike's Fair is the most ranged aerial besides some of the Zairs.
Seriously, you should know better than that.
I'd say Lucas' Fair has pretty good range on it.
If it outranges MK's then I'd say thats pretty good range.

...


*watches bad theorycrafting*

*gets popcorn*



Here's a hint, when you're just talking about what move beats what move in certain attributes, you're bound to get a bad impression of what actually works. Talk about mix-up potential.

Mix-ups? Ok, Dair, Fair, AD. As long as you don't get predictable those 3 are good mix-ups.


For example, Chuee, the fact that Ike's fair can be PS'd on reaction probably means he's not gonna use it as a poke, however that doesn't mean he can't use a retreating fair to beat your fair as a read.

Again, that shouldn't happen often if I use mix-ups and don't let the opponent read me. Just, be cautious when you Fair.



Regardless in terms of MK, he uses grounded moves to beat your fair's range.
Pretty much only if he reads my approach. Dtilt and Ftilt don't do that much damage, SL is the best option.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I never said beats it. I said similar to it. There is a different, like the examples I listed.

@Adumb: I'm not asking about theorycrafting this time. I'm simply asking for range of Lucas's aerial moves. I'm a bit fuzzy on that when it comes to comparing them to other characters.

 

[Chuee]

I never said beats it. I said similar to it. There is a difference, like the examples I listed.

Fixed.
but yeah, already listed Fair, not like Marth's Fair or DK/D3's Bair, but still really good range.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Chuee, can any of them beat an retreating Ike fair when you're spaced for a fair?

And since you can't exactly go through it if he aims to miss, what do you do then?



Ftilt on reaction to a jump beats pretty much everything, how do you deal with an MK that ftilts like that?





I'm not even saying anything about what the actual MU is, what I'm doing is telling you the questions you should be asking.


At the top of the metagame, people are always attempting to read each other, not so much in terms of the exact move but in terms of the set of options that will be beaten by what they decide to do. What you should be asking is "how likely will they read me correctly?" (in other words, out of my viable options how many options are beaten on average by their useful options), "what are the rewards for them if they predict correctly?", and "what are the rewards for me if they predict incorrectly".


Now, I don't know that much about lucas myself, but when I think of this situation, most options result in Ike hitting with the fair and getting damage and knocking lucas offstage at higher percents. If he predicts the timing wrong, he loses ground. The only option that Lucas gets a major win with is if he does a running shield (possibly a running PS is required).



Again, this is just my image, but the point is how to conceptualize MUs in general. Try discussing it this way, you'll get more useful results.

 

[Chuee]

Chuee, can any of them beat an retreating Ike fair when you're spaced for a fair?
Don't understand what this means.

And since you can't exactly go through it if he aims to miss, what do you do then?
Go through it?



Ftilt on reaction to a jump beats pretty much everything, how do you deal with an MK that ftilts like that?
Shield.
What frame does ftilt come out on 2 or 3?





I'm not even saying anything about what the actual MU is, what I'm doing is telling you the questions you should be asking.


At the top of the metagame, people are always attempting to read each other, not so much in terms of the exact move but in terms of the set of options that will be beaten by what they decide to do. What you should be asking is "how likely will they read me correctly?" (in other words, out of my viable options how many options are beaten on average by their useful options), "what are the rewards for them if they predict correctly?", and "what are the rewards for me if they predict incorrectly".




Now, I don't know that much about lucas myself, but when I think of this situation, most options result in Ike hitting with the fair and getting damage and knocking lucas offstage at higher percents. If he predicts the timing wrong, he loses ground. The only option that Lucas gets a major win with is if he does a running shield (possibly a running PS is required).

Ike will get a Fair when he gets a read, while Lucas gets a grab or a Fair if he gets a read.



Again, this is just my image, but the point is how to conceptualize MUs in general. Try discussing it this way, you'll get more useful results.

10 character

 

[adumbrodeus]

10 character

Spaced for your fair of course.



"Aim to miss" means he's zoning, you try to go through it, you get hit.




If he does it in reaction to jump? Airshielding in this game?




Regardless, you're still asking the wrong questions.

 

[Chuee]

Spaced for your fair of course.
Out of my Fair's range?
Then it'll hit.



"Aim to miss" means he's zoning, you try to go through it, you get hit.
Try going through his Fair?




If he does it in reaction to jump? Airshielding in this game?
If I see he ftilts me when I jump I should be able to predict the ftilts and shield them next time.




Regardless, you're still asking the wrong questions.

Uhh, so Im supposed to be talking about reads?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just look at this, you don't seem to understand what I'm getting at, and a systematic explanation might help.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Just look at this, you don't seem to understand what I'm getting at, and a systematic explanation might help.

just because you link people to a post you made doesn't make you right.

 

[Conviction]

The post was relavent to what he was talking about and because Chuee wasn't understanding, to clarify what he meant in the discussion above.

EDIT: Ninja skills +1

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's called a copy-paste so I don't have to make a 500,000 word post to explain the same thing every time it comes up in discussion.

 

[Purple]

Almostlegendary is being silly

Adumbrodeus is flexing his purple name again, awesome.

 

[rathy Aro]

I didn't say it made her a bad character, please read my post before you point elbows, sir.

I was merely saying that I felt that was one of the things that put her down there.

k

Sheik's so good.

Dis ***** knows.

 

[Shaya]

You know guys, there's also Roy syndrome in this game?

Did you guys know that MK would have had pseudo roy syndrome if his moves didn't have transcended priority?
Zelda also has roy syndrome.

Roy syndrome is interesting at least.


(Roy syndrome is "my moves that hit you are gonna get punished dawg")

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Uhh. Just to clarify what I meant.

There are a large number of characters that outrange lucas on the ground and in the air, mostly horizontally.

The list is rather large.

I'll make a compact version to explain my point.

MK [Ground and Air]
Snake [Ground]
Marth [Ground and Air]
DDD [Ground and Air]
G&W [Ground and Air]
TL [Ground and Air]
DK [Ground and Air]
Peach [Ground and Air]
Wolf [Air]
Ike [Ground and Air]
Ganon [Grounddd]

Now out of those characters I named, here are the characters with moves (that outrange Lucas' spacing moves on the ground) that are easily PS'ed

DDD
G&W
TL
DK
Ike
Ganon

Then characters that outrange lucas horizontally in the air with easily PS'able moves

DDD [Lucas' Uair trades with his Dair, only move DDD has is Bair]
Wolf [Bair]
DK [Bair lol]
Ike [fair and nair]

After looking at this, you realize you limit the range issues, through looking at frame data to see you can punish everyone one of these characters, if you PS. Not saying it'll happen all the time, but a reasonable solution to a problem lucas has.

So after we touch the surface, you delve deeper into the same list.

MK
Snake
Marth
DDD
G&W
TL
DK
Peach
Wolf
Ike
Ganon

Check what characters has more MOBILITY than lucas on the ground* and air*.

MK [Ground]
Marth [Ground]
Peach [Air]

That's it.

* Ground includes walking and running. Lucas has the 34th slowest walk, but is 17th for running. I used lucas' running speed to determine ground mobility. Anyone with a faster running speed and/or walking speed [Marth ties for walking speed everyone else is slower]. I'm assuming the measurements are all the same because it's measuring speed. If you include fox trotting/dashing, then you could add Wolf and DK to the ground section]

** Just used base aerial mobility.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

With thissssssssssssss.

you realize that lucas also has the mobility to make up for his range issues, not through the ground, but baiting with weaving in and out of ranges with his aerial mobility.

Refine the list a bit.

MK
Marth
Peach
G&W
DK [only stayed on because of his dash/foxtrotting animation, and is similar to lucas in aerial speed + his range makes up the small gap in aerial mobility.]

Oh look.
Lucas' worst MU's (minus snake because of his ridiculous camping game that wasn't included in this list)

Majority of his problems come from characters that are as quick as him, AND outrange him.

Snake is just a camping fgt

Ofc. There's ALOT more to his MUs than this. just elaborating on his range issues.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dtilt is amazing.... dsmash, too, although it has pretty bad range. Her tilts are all good actually.

Also, saying "this move is good but not in this situation" isn't very helpful. Not every move is useful in every situation. nB is a good move, but not as a reflector.

 

[Shaya]

It's not that good as a combo breaker either. Insinuated by "has invincibility frames".

Let's look at a move that's somewhat the same but better in every way (except damage, but wolf's shine cancels upon reaching the ground and has combo ability).
Wolf's shine.

 

[Z'zgashi]

wolf is amazing! unfortunately though i have a feeling he'll move down a bit, i dunno why though :/

 

[IkeFiend]

Awwwwwwwwwwww, what happened to Zelda? LOL. Ike's still where he is, and then... I really could care less about Marth now. D: I never was good with him.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You know guys, there's also Roy syndrome in this game?

Did you guys know that MK would have had pseudo roy syndrome if his moves didn't have transcended priority?
Zelda also has roy syndrome.

Roy syndrome is interesting at least.


(Roy syndrome is "my moves that hit you are gonna get punished dawg")

What is the roy syndrome I'm not following you.

 

[Shaya]

Zelda's non-sweet spotted fair, bair and dair, dtilt hitting someone past a certain percent that it doesn't "lock".

In other words, you can get punished for hitting your opponent.

 

[Steeler]

Did you guys know that MK would have had pseudo roy syndrome if his moves didn't have transcended priority?

can you elaborate on why the priority matters?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zelda's non-sweet spotted fair, bair and dair, dtilt hitting someone past a certain percent that it doesn't "lock".

In other words, you can get punished for hitting your opponent.

Just sweet spot them. dtilt locks from 50% to like 110 it'll knock someone up in the air and it also cause tripping. I don't think zelda will get punished for landing a dtilt.