The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Z'zgashi]

Unfortunately no... his projectile is so slow you can even dodge/shield it in lag, his airials are mostly all slow, he's still pretty much the easiest to gimp, his smashes aren't any easier to land, etc., etc., etc....

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

HIS AERIALS ARE SLOW?
hahahahahahahahaa
nair and bair are frame3 ~_~

 

[Z'zgashi]

i said mostly... his bair is the only good one cuz nair is ****y on wi-fi

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No you said "mostly all", which is incorrect English/American. How can you expect me to completely comprehend what you say if you can't even communicate properly?

 

[bigman40]

You might be asking a bit too much from certain americans <3

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Wario is only good for a certain amount of time

Cause eventually, you'll wear out Shield/Dodge button because that's literally all Wario does. Flash white a little bit and grin


In all seriousness, he's good but I'm not sure he's 2nd best, Snake seems to have comfortably settled in that spot

 

[Z'zgashi]

No you said "mostly all", which is incorrect English/American. How can you expect me to completely comprehend what you say if you can't even communicate properly?

English isnt my first languange and im still learning little bits, so sorry if i dont make sense... I think i have it down pretty well though :D

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ah, I understand. I've seen worse from people who do have English as their first language, so don't worry ^_^

 

[humble]

Nice trolling Z.

Ivy's bair is frame 4, nair is frame 4, bulletseed is frame 4, dtilt is frame 4, dash attack is frame 4, ftilt is frame 5.

The more you know. *rainbows*

 

[Z'zgashi]

but you forget how situational they are. and what about their range?

 

[humble]

but you forget how situational they are. and what about their range?

Lol ivy has great range, bair, dtilt, ftilt, etc. Not situational at all really, all useful.

Seriously, you have to be trolling; ivy is both fast and has great range, her spacing is one of her best traits!

 

[Z'zgashi]

but in lag does this work as well? no. does she excel at anyhting else? no. does that make her good on wifi? no.

 

[Kofu]

I thought you were arguing that she was worse than Ganon IRL
Besides, it's much easier to fall for her Up and Side Smashes on Wi-fi... and they HURT.

 

[Nysyarc]

Lol ivy has great range, bair, dtilt, ftilt, etc. Not situational at all really, all useful.

Seriously, you have to be trolling; ivy is both fast and has great range, her spacing is one of her best traits!

So... Ivysaur for top tier? Ivy is better than Ganondorf obviously but his/her/it's recovery among other things is just so limited. The only reason Ike arguably has an easier time on Squirtle is because he has a grab release infinite -> walk-off Fair -> edge hog and because he outranges Squirtle even harder than Ivy.

So some of Ivy's attacks come out on frame 4... none of the ones you mentioned are KO moves, and a lot of characters have moves faster than frame 4. As a character Ivy isn't fast... and I wouldn't use the word 'great' to describe her range. Above average maybe.

Edit: All characters are nerfed on WiFi. Some harder than others, but I can't stand people saying that some characters are buffed on WiFi.

 

[humble]

but in lag does this work as well? no. does she excel at anyhting else? no. does that make her good on wifi? no.

Lol her normally avoidable attacks like bulletseed, uair, dair, usmash are easier to land, and they all pack huge punches. Her spacing is still good online lol, play a good online meta, they still space.

Her projectile is meh, but at least she has one.

Her spacing is great, especially compared to Ganon.

Her damage output is higher than ganons.

Her recovery sucks, but again, is better than ganons.

 

[humble]

So... Ivysaur for top tier? Ivy is better than Ganondorf obviously but his/her/it's recovery among other things is just so limited. The only reason Ike arguably has an easier time on Squirtle is because he has a grab release infinite -> walk-off Fair -> edge hog and because he outranges Squirtle even harder than Ivy.

So some of Ivy's attacks come out on frame 4... none of the ones you mentioned are KO moves, and a lot of characters have moves faster than frame 4. As a character Ivy isn't fast... and I wouldn't use the word 'great' to describe her range. Above average maybe.

Edit: All characters are nerfed on WiFi. Some harder than others, but I can't stand people saying that some characters are buffed on WiFi.

Ivy sucks, and sucks harder online, but she isn't as bad as ganon.

EDIT: everything I was saying was in comparison to Ganon. I know she sucks.

 

[smashkng]

Ivysaur is better than Ganon for sure Z
Much better range, speed, and a recovery that isn't AUTO DIE

Lol Ganon doesn't lack range at all except in his grab and Usmash, it is above average, just not as long as characters like DK, Marth, Ike or Snake's. And Ganon's recovery does suck, but the auto-loss depends on how far offstage he gets.

 

[Kofu]

Her damage output is higher than ganons.

Uh what
Maybe only with Bullet Seed? Move-for-move, Ganon FAR outranges Ivy in terms of damage. Unless you're talking about actually landing moves, in which Ivy is better.

Her recovery sucks, but again, is better than ganons.

Ganon's is actually fairly long (vertically), but is hurt by the fact that most characters can hit and fairly easily gimp him out of his Up-B. I'd say they're about even. Ivy's defense against those trying to gimp her is better though.

At Smashking: I know Ganon's range isn't bad (his UAir range is quite workable even). The main problem is that it's not long in comparison to his body, and often when it is, it's quite slow. Ivysaur's range is better and more easily used.

 

[smashkng]

That's similar to Link who has a long disjointed sword but is too slow to use that well. But Ganon's DA, Wizard and Dtilt they all have crazy range and the Dtilt is also disjointed. Sadly, they aren't safe on shield.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lol of course Ivysaur is better than Ganondorf...at least she has stuff like Bair and Razor Leaf and doesn't have such horrific match ups like Ganondorf

Ganondorf has a magical sword stashed away in his pocket. Not only is this stupid, its also going to seriously limit his movement. OF COURSE he's going to be the worst character in Brawl!

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ivy is better than ganon irl but online i think ganon is a little better

 

[Yikarur]

SERIOUSLY who cares online? x____x

 

[Nysyarc]

Ivy is better than ganon irl but online i think ganon is a little better

Ganon is arguably nerfed harder than any other character online. He relies heavily on spacing which is difficult on WiFi, and as someone mentioned before, chain choking becomes completely inviable. Ganondorf has a good punishing game (one of his only positives) but punishing in input lag is harder for all characters. Plus PSing consistently is impossible on WiFi, giving characters with projectiles (even Ivy, whose projectile isn't too great) a huge advantage over him.

If you're argument for him being better is "But his Fsmash and WP can hit because of lag lololol" then this isn't even worth my time.

 

[<π]

I like when people call link too slow. thats like calling Ike too slow.

Ivy is way better than she is credited for. she has an amazing move set.

EDIT:
Link has a slow moveset sure... ish. his range more than makes up for the start up. All of his slow start up moves have very low cool down which make them all great zoning tools. a beastly zair which sets up combos and a long range disjointed jab which even at 6 frames or **** every when spaced well can't be punished on sheild roll wif or spot dodge but will still combo into grabs and kills. heck fsmash is safe on sheild versus most of the cast and even then trying to punish fsmash1 is always a gamble.

For Ivy ftilt Dtilt jab bair even nair are all safe on sheild when spaced properly. Ivy will kill you at crazy low percents off a good read bait an air dodge and you can take a stock as 0ow as like 50. bullet seed is one of the best inturputs in the game a frame two move that deals upward of 40 damage? yeah ivy has her weak points but the biggest thing holding her back is PT mains mindsets when playing her IMO

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm sorry, but when people say positive things about PT, let alone Ivysaur, I think you're trolling.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ivy would be triforce tier.

Killing off of a read doesn't mean you're a good character. Otherwise Ganondorf, Ike, DK, and Bowser would all be hirer. They can all kill at crazy %s with a good read, and have more options to do so than Ivy. Particularly Ike or Bowser. Bullet Seed should never ever deal 40% damage. SDI does exist. A good amount of damage? Yes. 40% No. And if it misses, it can be punished by Ike's fsmash. That means you can use basically any move to punished a whiffed Bullet Seed.

I should also add that Bullet Seed isn't Frame 2. We went through this one of the times PT and Ike went through a MU discussion. Turns out it's a Frame 4 move, with 2 frames or so of invincibility, or something roughly like that.

Ivy has above average range, sure, but most of her range is in the air...where her air speed is complete garbage. It basically destroys most of the benefit of having that range in the first place. Her projectile is the second worse in the game, only beating Luigi's fireball. Her best kill moves are Uair and Usmash, with small hitboxes horizontally. Only Fsmash really has strong kick behind it when it comes to horizontally killing, and maybe fair.

I'm sorry, but terrible air speed, above average but not easily usable range, a terrible projectile, terrible recovery, and situational, limited kill moves do not make up an "amazing moveset". In fact, they make up a fairly bad moveset.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm sorry, but when people say positive things about PT, let alone Ivysaur, I think you're trolling.

Ivysaur is the reason why PT sucks, online or off.

 

[humble]

People be trollin' again. If you don't know too much about a character please don't speak authoritatively about them please.

Ivysaur is a bad character. She is the worst of the three pokemon, and she would be low tier if she were to be ranked individually.

Now to respond:

Killing off of a read doesn't mean you're a good character. Otherwise Ganondorf, Ike, DK, and Bowser would all be hirer. They can all kill at crazy %s with a good read, and have more options to do so than Ivy. Particularly Ike or Bowser. Bullet Seed should never ever deal 40% damage. SDI does exist. A good amount of damage? Yes. 40% No. And if it misses, it can be punished by Ike's fsmash. That means you can use basically any move to punished a whiffed Bullet Seed.

Killing off a read is a good trait that is nice to have in a good character actually, and its other flaws that bring those characters down. I disagree, Ivy has a multitude of easier to land KO moves, and is every bit as powerful. Strongest upsmash in the game, strongest uair, very powerful dair, Fsmash is, while not fast to start, really quick to strike and has deceptive range. A lot of ivy's kills will be gimps anyway. No one has ever said ivy's problem was killing, she kills well enough, thats never been a problem for ivy.

Bullet seed doesn't do 40% sure, but it does 20-30%, and ivy shouldn't be whiffing that move. I don't know about you, but a 4 frame instant 20% is pretty good, when 2 of those frames are invincible, I'm starting to get worried about trying to pressure ivy too much. Would I go for that followup? maybe, but if I'm not spot on its 20% tacked on for me. The threat of bullet seed is really good.

Ivy has above average range, sure, but most of her range is in the air...where her air speed is complete garbage. It basically destroys most of the benefit of having that range in the first place. Her projectile is the second worse in the game, only beating Luigi's fireball. Her best kill moves are Uair and Usmash, with small hitboxes horizontally. Only Fsmash really has strong kick behind it when it comes to horizontally killing, and maybe fair.

Lol MK and his airspeed say hi. MK has terribad airspeed but great range, while I'm not saying ivy is MK status in the air, I'm saying bad airspeed isn't necessarily the end of all spacing benefits. Btw, on the ground for spacing she has dtilt, ftilt, jab, fsmash, Dsmash, and grab. Dtilt is frame 4, ftilt is frame 5, jab is frame 7, fsmash isn't fast but it packs a punch, etc. etc. Her spacing is great on and off the ground.

Lol this has to be trolling, are you saying Dins, watergun, FLUDD, Kirby's up-b wave, chef, paralyzer shot, ness's green thing (forgot the name), lucas's pk freeze, are all better then razor leaf? Because you would be wrong sir.

Her kill moves kill, which is more then some can say, and they kill pretty darn well.

I'm sorry, but terrible air speed, above average but not easily usable range, a terrible projectile, terrible recovery, and situational, limited kill moves do not make up an "amazing moveset". In fact, they make up a fairly bad moveset.

Thats why she's considered the worst pokemon.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Charizard is pretty bad too.

 

[humble]

PT should be low tier.

 

[Nysyarc]

Strongest upsmash in the game, strongest uair, very powerful dair

I stopped reading after that. Strongest Usmash and Uair in the game? What are you smoking? And TBQH I don't think I've ever seen an Ivysaur spike someone, her Dair is way too slow and predictable, mostly due to the aforementioned bad air speed.

Also, I could make a list of all the characters who have moves that come out faster than frame 4, it would be a long one. There may be a few projectiles worse than Ivy's, but that's not any kind of a case for it being good, it's still a really bad projectile.

 

[YagamiLight]

I stopped reading after that. Strongest Usmash and Uair in the game? What are you smoking?

He probably isn't smoking anything too strong, as Ivysaur does indeed have both the strongest charged and uncharged up smash in the game.

Ivysaur's Up Aerial is third place, however, after Zelda and Bowser and before Ike and Snake.

 

[Nysyarc]

He probably isn't smoking anything too strong, as Ivysaur does indeed have both the strongest charged and uncharged up smash in the game.

Ivysaur's Up Aerial is third place, however, after Zelda and Bowser and before Ike and Snake.

Lol, when I first read "both the strongest..." I though you were gonna follow up with "Usmash and Uair in the game". I can understand Usmash I guess, but I knew for sure Bowser had a stronger Uair and I would have bet on Zelda. Anyways it may be the strongest Usmash but it's certainly not the best as far as range or speed go.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur's down air is weak as BALLS

edit i just took the time to read some stuff

first of all, bullet seed has frame 1-3 invincibility and hits on frame 4

it's not that great a move. with proper SDI, most characters will get out before they take 20%. on whiff, ivysaur gets charge whatever-smashed and possibly gimped. the risk/reward really isn't very good. plus on hit opponents can sometimes avoid the stream by simply holding forward. meaning if they were already trying to dash forward or fsmash or something, they sometimes do escape accidentally.

ivy's moveset

forward air is painfully slow, and combined with ivy's air speed, it's very easy to see this move coming...think of it as an ike fair that has quite a bit less horizontal range and a lot of landing lag. even if ivysaur is trying to autocancel this move out of a short hop, most characters can punish it out of shield before ivy lands. ivy's horizontal air speed is that slow and the autocancel window is that late (so ivy can't really fastfall to the ground without landing lag). you can fullhop it if you want but that puts you above a grounded opponent. and you don't really want that.

bair is safe on shield at nearly max range and ivy can't be approaching with it. a 5% move is safe on shield. whoopee.

nair is a good move on a limited character. it's almost as good as wario dair...unfortunately, ivysaur is almost wario's polar opposite. it's as good as wario dair for follow ups (lol nair -> nair -> uair), does good damage, has a weak spike that is fairly dangerous off stage. ivysaur can only hit a shield safely by landing on the ground behind the opponent during the hitboxes...even then, most characters can jump out of shield/roll during the landing lag and get out or counterattack with a bair or something.

uair has a huge hitbox but the fact that ivy is forced downward really limits your opportunity to bait or follow up. it's kind of safe on shield if you hit it right as you land. good kill power.

dair is a really bad move but it has some use when ivy has platforms to mess around with by making ivy land on one right after the hitbox comes out. perhaps humble was referring to balanced brawl? lol

jab can be shielded between the first and second hits, but the rapid hits are pretty good. it's a slow jab though.

dtilt used to be a good move...but i found out that if the opponent simply holds up when the first vine hits, the second only hits right next to ivysaur...lol...

ftilt can be SDI'd to pop out behind ivysaur and the move has quite a bit of cooldown so this often means a free grab or whatever. unless ivysaur spaces it at the tip, where it only does like 2-4%. woohoo.

utilt has little to no horizontal range and isn't fast enough to be your typical juggling utilt. if the opponent is in position to get hit by this move, you are probably wanting to nair or bullet seed or bait a usmash/uair (lol).

fsmash has a very quick release and surprising range. it's a decent smash attack.

usmash is slow on all accounts and

don't air dodge in that white part and you'll be fine.

dsmash is pretty lols, it has some use against ice climbers and in tech chase situations but it does 8% uncharged and doesn't kill mario from the middle of FD at 200%. weakest of weaksauces.

ivy's grabs are pretty bad and the throws are nothing special, which sucks because throws are probably the most consistent/reliable method of damage ivy has.

razor leaf is meh, it is depressingly unsafe to use for a projectile. you can use it to set up and bait into grabs and junk at a distance, i guess.

ivy is pretty easy to shut down if you know the matchup. and, obviously, one mistake on ivy's part can lead to a stock loss due to her miserable recovery.

charizard is pretty bad too.

 

[<π]

you guys are hopeless, lol. Seems most PT mains are way worse than their character if I know more than they do.

 

[Kinzer]

you guys are hopeless, lol. Seems most PT mains are way worse than their character if I know more than they do.

Sweet, delicious arrogance.

God I love this thread.

I'm sorry, I'd contribute but I'd get shot on sight if I said Sonic shouldn't be where he is now.

Inb4lower.

 

[Purple]

Are you absolutely certain you can SDI before taking 20%? Please show me a video of this happening :|

U-smash has a huge hitbox, and you can punish spot dodges, it's not something you just hit from a tech chase or something like snake's u-tilt, it's situational. Doesn't u-air have a weird hitbox and comes out really fast?

 

[MrBoiNK]

main attack to use i guess

 

[Nysyarc]

Are you absolutely certain you can SDI before taking 20%? Please show me a video of this happening :|

Ivy isn't going to catch you directly in the center of it every time in a real match. I've gotten out with around 10% or less on several occasions where there isn't very far to SDI. I'd say even if you're caught in the middle it's possible to SDI out before 20% if this crap is possible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lol this has to be trolling, are you saying Dins, watergun, FLUDD, Kirby's up-b wave, chef, paralyzer shot, ness's green thing (forgot the name), lucas's pk freeze, are all better then razor leaf? Because you would be wrong sir.

Yes I am saying those are better.

Both Dins and Razor Leaf are bad, but at least Din's has a decent hitbox and more range. Din's fire is probably third worse in the game.

Water Gun and FLUDD can both gimp decently well, I'll take that over Razor Leaf's what, 4% damage? I can't remember off of the top of my head.

Kirby's Up B isn't use as a projectile. It's an added bonus to his move, and isn't meant to be used to keep people back. It basically just adds range to the landing. That would be like calling Firebreaths a projectile: they aren't.

Chef is in fact better, particularly if you add in the pan aspect of the move. I'd rather have that then Razor Leaf. At least I can kinda use it like a wall temporarily.

PK Flash at least is worth hitting with if you can land it. I forgot about PK Freeze, I'd might consider that worse then Razor Leaf. I mean, it's not even worth hitting with, but it actually has some range to it...I'd have to think about it.