The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Mota]

"1WHO iS the best ik play?"

San?

 

[smashkng]

Ganon's Fsmash has weaker knockback (still with high knockback) from farther hitboxes, but still deals the same damage as the sweetspot one. Ganon's Fsmash also has a disjoint and shutter-step increases its range. Ganon's Fsmash is still one of the strongest in the game even if it is weaker than Ike's and has pretty fast start-up (21 frames) with huge shield pushback, although not really safe uncharged. It has lots of ending lag though (but still less than Ike's).

And San is the best Ike, but Mr Doom is still an amazing Ike.

 

[YagamiLight]

It has lots of ending lag though (but still less than Ike's).

Ike? Ending lag?

Preposterous.

 

[phi1ny3]

@ scariest fsmash topic

KING DEDEDEDEDEDE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KOlVl77SkQ

 

[Shaya]

You're a moderator, you're meant to secretly embed songs like that ****IT.
Well maybe just the dedede section(s). Embedding options should allow you to select "areas" that get played (on loop) hahaha.

 

[smashkng]

I mean Ganon's Fsmash has a huge amount of cooldonwn, but Ike's Fsmash has even more.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lrn2forum

Don't post something that will get responses like that then.

LOL@ Wario C Tier, Fox not around Wolf and worse than PKM Trainer, and no one is worse than Ganon.

What are your reasonings for your list? Is that you don't want to argue cause you don't have legit reasonings or just some excuse for a bias?

Fine.

Metaknight’s Tire:

S: Metaknight

High Tier:
A: Diddy (Yeah, I said it.), Snake, Ice Climbers, Falco, Wario, Marth
B: Pikachu, Dedede, Lucario, G&W

Mid Tier:
C: Olimar, ZSS, Toon Link, Pit, ROB, Kirby
D: Luigi, Peach, Wolf, Fox, DK
E: Sheik, Pokemon Trainer, Sonic

YOU’LL GET KNOW SYMPATHY FROM ME! Tier:

Ike, Ness, Bowser

Low Tier:
F: Lucas, Yoshi, Mario, Jigglypuff, Link, Samus
G: Falcon, Ganondorf, Zelda

Happy now? lol

I made some changes. Still my opinion, so yeah. Almost all opinions are bias anyways.

And Zelda will go down in the next tier list. Either to second last, or last. If she doesn’t go to last this tier list, she will the one after that.

Unless something game breaking is found with her, of course.

Let’s discuss Falco. His metagame keep changing so fast... tbh, I don't know where he should be anymore.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I still feel bad for DEHF w/ the MLG Columbus, but Falco is still 4th/3rd best. Top players have said so.

 

[<π]

I still don't think falco is all that amazing of a character personally. top 15 top ten sure. top five... no.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Falco is one of the few characters that can go dead even with MKs (mks say it's their advantage, but the MU thread admits that if falco gets the cg, it's slightly falco's favor, so imo it should be even)

 

[Espy Rose]

It's only in Falco's (very slight, near non-existant) advantage if there's a Ledge Grab Limit (MLG).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falco is one of the few characters that can go dead even with MKs (mks say it's their advantage, but the MU thread admits that if falco gets the cg, it's slightly falco's favor, so imo it should be even)

No he can't. No character in existence goes dead even with MK in the current metagame. If he did, everyone would be picking him up to use against MK, without needing to learn MK himself.

 

[stingers]

No he can't. No character in existence goes dead even with MK in the current metagame. If he did, everyone would be picking him up to use against MK, without needing to learn MK himself.

lol so saltay

 

[YagamiLight]

Mad salty.

The reason people don't pick up Falco to use against Meta Knight is because if you want to go learn a good character that goes even with Meta Knight you can just go Meta Knight. Falco actually has some issues such as recovery and fall speed...

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Nintendofreak: This is quoted DIRECTLY from the mk matchup thread

Final Verdict

I'm about to get flamed for this. There are two percentage ranges I'm going to give for this matchup.

If Falco is able to get his chain grab early - 55:45 - 60:40 in favor of Falco (Unless on Final Destination. Yeah, good luck with that stage.)

If Falco is unable to grab Metaknight - 55:45 - 60:40 in favor of Metaknight

I can't really put an overall ratio down for this match because of how dependent it is on that chain grab. Yes, the chain grab is that important in this matchup. Keep this in mind and try your best to stay away from his grabs and it will swing the scales in your favor.

 

[Blacknight99923]

if falco was so easy to pick up then pikachus would start coming from everywhere
the chain grab is important in every match up......why you would say its 6-4 or then 55-45 seems rather dumb to me when that's player oriented in that match up in getting the grab and of course not getting grabbed

the logic of 2 separate match ups seems rather foolish to me when the match up itself doesn't change

 

[Blacknight99923]

if falco was so easy to pick up then pikachus would start coming from everywhere
the chain grab is important in every match up......why you would say its 6-4 or then 55-45 seems rather dumb to me when that's player oriented in that match up in getting the grab and of course not getting grabbed

the logic of 2 separate match ups seems rather foolish to me when the match up itself doesn't change


edit accidental double post I apologize

 

[Z'zgashi]

dont ask me, Im not an mk main, i just quoted their mu thread :/

 

[adumbrodeus]

So, you're just blankly quoting the MU thread without any real knowledge of the workings of the MU?

FANTASTIC!


Here's a hint, MK isn't exactly an easy character to grab when he doesn't wanna be.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So, you're just blankly quoting the MU thread without any real knowledge of the workings of the MU?

FANTASTIC!


Here's a hint, MK isn't exactly an easy character to grab when he doesn't wanna be.

So, you're just unwittingly assuming that I know nothing about this MU and have no experience?

NICE!


There's this cool new thing called MIND GAMES! Oh, and I used to main Falco you *******

 

[Ussi]

When you have a sword you can play a good don't get grabbed game... lol

 

[Blacknight99923]

used to and do arguably mean a huge difference because the metagame changes

 

[adumbrodeus]

So, you're just unwittingly assuming that I know nothing about this MU and have no experience?

NICE!


There's this cool new thing called MIND GAMES! Oh, and I used to main Falco you *******

...

dont ask me, Im not an mk main, i just quoted their mu thread :/

If you actually UNDERSTAND the MU and can comment on it in terms of high-level play, then why are you saying that?


Especially if you're coming to a conclusion that's different from the thread.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im trying to point out that at least some high level mks agree. I said that because I dont know what goes on in the mk thread, not because I dont know anything about the MU at all. I wouldn't have givin my opinion if I didnt have any experience...

 

[Blacknight99923]

some high level MKs agree not all of them? I am sure RedHalberd wasn't even trying to say the match up was 6-4 or 4-6 or whatever it is more like he is saying who is likely to win if someone gets a grab if that makes sense. its hard to explain but in short I don't think is insinuating there are 2 different match ups when its really 1

thats called M2K logic about diddy if your saying one person should decide the MU

 

[adumbrodeus]

Im trying to point out that at least some high level mks agree. I said that because I dont know what goes on in the mk thread, not because I dont know anything about the MU at all. I wouldn't have givin my opinion if I didnt have any experience...

Fair enough, though plenty of people are fine tossing out MU numbers with no real understanding of what they mean and just quoting character boards.



But remember what was shown at the top, they still have mk winning 55-45, MK isn't exactly easy to grab reliably after all.


And of course this assumes no planking.




That said, this is old, I'd love to see a more recent consensus.

 

[Z'zgashi]

some high level MKs agree not all of them? I am sure RedHalberd wasn't even trying to say the match up was 6-4 or 4-6 or whatever it is more like he is saying who is likely to win if someone gets a grab if that makes sense. its hard to explain but in short I don't think is insinuating there are 2 different match ups when its really 1

thats called M2K logic about diddy if your saying one person should decide the MU

I agree, what I think he was saying is that falco can be a difficult character to deal with if played correctly.

Fair enough, though plenty of people are fine tossing out MU numbers with no real understanding of what they mean and just quoting character boards.



But remember what was shown at the top, they still have mk winning 55-45, MK isn't exactly easy to grab reliably after all.


And of course this assumes no planking.




That said, this is old, I'd love to see a more recent consensus.

Imo i think it should be 50:50 due to how stage dependant this mu is. Really, whoever wins the first match should come out on top because they both have stages that work well against the other (especially if japes is allowed). Planking is an issue, but just like when you said mk is hard to grab, falco can be hard to get offstage, especially due to his amazing stage control.

 

[dainbramage]

Essentially for the MU to be even, falco needs:

LGLs
Japes or pictochat legal (both if the set is a BO5)
RC and/or brinstar banned
3-5 starters (with FD included)


7 starters and MK will have the advantage game 1 after striking BF, SV and FD. If neither japes nor pictochat are legal then falco gets no advantage on his CP, since MK is going to ban FD. And if MK can cp RC or brinstar he gets a huge advantage there.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yes, and it's already been pointed out that the mlg ruleset (which I assume you are using as the example) heavily favors mk. I believe it was ally who expressed this during an interview.

 

[Ussi]

can't MK just shark japes and totally get away with it? And cause it's solid MK doesn't have to worry about going over the stage and he can land in the water (to not build up the ledge count) to get away or shuttle loop back on.

Also what's the frame advanatgr of uair on shield? I'm wondering If you can jump OoS to escape a barrage of uairs from under the stage

edit: advantage is -10 sooo falco takes 4-5 frames to jump so he has 5ish frames to jump out of a barrage of uairs if it doesn't shield stab by then.

 

[Purple]

Out of curiosity, how do you all feel about MK have a supreme advantage stage wise? Are you saying that we should drop how many stages that are MK's advantage just because he's the best character?

 

[Kitamerby]

can't MK just shark japes and totally get away with it? And cause it's solid MK doesn't have to worry about going over the stage and he can land in the water (to not build up the ledge count) to get away or shuttle loop back on.

Only if he likes getting killed by a klaptrap at 20%...

 

[Ussi]

Only if he likes getting killed by a klaptrap at 20%...

I know the klaptrap jumps put inbetween the ledges, but if MK is under the stage does the klaptrap reach him?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Out of curiosity, how do you all feel about MK have a supreme advantage stage wise? Are you saying that we should drop how many stages that are MK's advantage just because he's the best character?

Honestly I'd be more willing to limit the stages HE can counter pick on even if its targeting only one character. Obviously its not a perfect solution however it would solve a lot of problems, and create a few more

 

[bigman40]

Just ban the little ****er already. (sorry to MK mains that like him), it's obvious he's dominating with a more diverse (gay) stage list (even though he stills dominates on a conservative list).

 

[Blacknight99923]

in all honesty this isn't a ban discussion

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree, what I think he was saying is that falco can be a difficult character to deal with if played correctly.



Imo i think it should be 50:50 due to how stage dependant this mu is. Really, whoever wins the first match should come out on top because they both have stages that work well against the other (especially if japes is allowed). Planking is an issue, but just like when you said mk is hard to grab, falco can be hard to get offstage, especially due to his amazing stage control.

I disagree, MK has better CPs then falco does, and he also wins on the starter stagelist.


Planking isn't an issue of MK getting Falco off-stage, the concern there is his ability to put himself in a good position while completely avoiding Falco's space control game, if MK is ahead there's very little falco can do.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I disagree, MK has better CPs then falco does, and he also wins on the starter stagelist.


Planking isn't an issue of MK getting Falco off-stage, the concern there is his ability to put himself in a good position while completely avoiding Falco's space control game, if MK is ahead there's very little falco can do.

Falco only needs 3ish good stages, which he already has.

 

[Chuee]

I disagree, MK has better CPs then falco does, and he also wins on the starter stagelist.

Maybe on the MLG starter list, but he doesn't on a 5 stage starterlist.

 

[Z'zgashi]

or a 3 like we utahns do it >:D