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Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

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Zant was horribly done? I actually liked Zant a bit. He added some chaos to the otherwise orderly antagonists of the series.

As for Skyward Sword, Link with a whip seems... wrong to me. I almost expect to see Link with a little asian companion following behind him.




... Of course, thats just an opinion.
 

3mmanu3lrc

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Why do people always compare Zelda games with other Zelda games? Twilight Princess is an amazing game, but people say that it's bad because it's not as good as previous Zeldas. That's a terrible way to critique games.
Because of this:
Luigitoilet said:
Because there is a level of expectation that comes from being a fan of the series.
If up to you... What'd you compare it with??
 

majora_787

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I honestly liked Zant. He was a little crazier than I'd have liked, but he was cool enough.

But in all seriousness, it's annoying when people do the whole "hype kills a game" thing. This isn't Halo, there has never been a Legend of Zelda game that has been insanely overhyped. The only game that I have ever played in the series that was not as good as I thought it would be was Phantom Hourglass, and it wasn't THAT disappointing. It was just tedious.

I personally think Skyward Sword looks like it'll be good, but I wouldn't say it has a 95% chance of being second chance or anything. I just highly doubt it will disappoint.

And Link with a whip? It makes me laugh, and hope he's a guest star in Castlevania Judgement II. *joking*
 

Spire

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Why the **** does everyone have a problem with Zant? All I've ever heard on the internet is, "Zant wasn't a big bad, therefore he sucks as an antagonist". Seriously, that's what makes him DIFFERENT from Ganon, and in comparison to Ganon's appearance in TP, makes him more of a character. You should LIKE him for that reason alone. Goddamnit. There's a lot of viral bandwagoning in regards to a lot of things Zelda on the internet. Some are as follows:

- Water Temple hate
- Zant hate
- Majora's Mask love
- Navi hate
- etc.

It's really the case of a lot of people not recognizing something until others rally together on the internet to make it clear that's how some feel. Some ≠ everyone. That's typically the case with our entire history though. The higher-ups in the Zelda social ladder declare their feelings, post "news" articles about them on their sites (or forums), and thus all their followers begin to adopt the same feeling. Or a forumer gains respect for their ability to manipulate linguistics into a persuasive post, make a thread about their feelings, and garner support. "Oh he hates the Water Temple for those reasons. Well despite me actually enjoying it in the game I can understand that, and you know... I think I hate it now too!" It ****ing drives me nuts.
 

Luigitoilet

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I liked Zant well enough, and Ganon showing up in the last act of TP was the proverbial "final nail in the coffin" for me and that game.

But I will be on the Majora's Mask "bandwagon" till the end of days I suspect. That's okay, I know it's not because it seems to have this crazy cult following all of a sudden. That game just tickles my "art bone"
 

Spire

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Well that's not bandwagoning, that's you genuinely loving the game. You know the type of people which I was addressing and you know you're not one of them.
 

Sephiroths Masamune

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I hated the Water Temple as a kid. I had to buy a stratagy guide just to get past it. I thought everyone hated it just because it was as hard for them as it was for me.

As for Zant, I didn't like TP that much anyways, (Except the hidden village part was amazingly fun to play.) so I'm nutral on him.

MM was fun to play, that's why people like it. But I can understand about the over hype your talking about.

Navi wasn't that much of a pain, she actually helped more than annoy me. Navi hate is all internet hate based.
 

Spire

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A big spiel; read if you have the time

And then there's genuine love for games like Link's Awakening. There's little-to-no bandwagoning for that game because it's small and insignificant looking in the grand scheme of Zelda. But, those who did play it when they were younger absolutely adore it (well most do). It's that lost little piece of treasure in the series that not a lot got to enjoy. I've never seen any LA bandwagoning because it doesn't have the supportive lore that gets the internet raving like MM does. Really, half of Zelda fandom is over the interpretive lore that people (Westerners) observe and create. MM offers a ton of lore about a land other than Hyrule, so of course that sparks a lot of interest, but it shouldn't convince everyone that MM is suddenly the best game ever ever ever ever because it simply isn't. It's great, but aggregate reviews (especially a decade-seasoned) should say how people felt at the time about the game, not how the internet culture has warped the game into something that it never was before. With the introduction of other games and forms of media since MM's release that test the mind's ability to deconstruct and compile the user's interpretive truth (i.e. Inception), this generation has been trained to do so with works of old.

MM has fallen victim to this phenomenon. As such, the internet has fabricated a 'newfound' love for the game and its world that hardly existed ca. 2000. Back then, it was "the game that tried to be OoT". Now it's "the game that actually is better than OoT". We can also attribute the fact that Nintendo has hard-pressed OoT through almost every game since through the repetition of Hyrule and Ganon rather than further exploring Termina. We've become far more familiar with Hyrule since MM, so now the internet Zelda subculture strives to go back to it to learn more. Circa 2000, we didn't care. It was difficult, alien, and not-the-norm in terms of Zelda. We wanted more of Hyrule, more of Ganon. Well we got it. In fact, we saw Ganon die in both timelines. I think Nintendo is going to put him to rest for a while. They'll awaken him once the fans are tired of their deviation from the norm; from their exploring of other worlds like Termina, the Cobble Kingdom, and Skyloft.

MM would be nothing without the internet. It would be wholly and entirely forgotten in the eyes of the masses. It's a beautiful thing that people are able to recognize the beauty behind the game now and discuss it every day across countless forums, but it's sites like Zelda Informer that are driving nails into its coffin by posting relentless articles about it as if its their hallowed and profane messiac contender for best game ever. Basically, if Zelda had always been based in Termina and Majora had always been the villain, then come 2000, OoT is released as a sequel to the Termina Zelda 64 adventure and for the first time ever introduces Hyrule, the Triforce, and Ganon. People would **** bricks. So remember, Ganon came first and will continue to come back time and again.

See here's the thing. Ganon has humanistic ulterior motives. We can relate to him, which is why we can hate him. Majora is essentially an alien. We cannot relate to it for its agenda is entirely unto its own psyche, which we have not and probably never will understand. Basically the difference between Ganon and Majora is this: with Ganon, it's a Man v. Man conflict. With Majora, it's a Man v. Self conflict.

I know this write-up is very much a tangent, but I'll say this while it's on my mind: TP attempted to insert the man v. self conflict with the Lanayru story of the Dark Interlopers and Link's hallucinogenic vision of the and three Dark Links acting in blaspheme towards the Triforce into a story that was first man v. nature and secondly man v. man. I think they screwed the pooch not with Zant, but truly with Ganon. Ganon was the bane to TP. Zant should have been defeated at the Arbiter's Grounds (when they introduced Ganon to the story), so the second half of the game would revolve around Link undoing Ganon's motives. At that point, I really wanted to defeat Zant, but instead I was thrown into a really cool boss fight with Stallord, and then sent by the ancient sages to three more freaking dungeons just so I could defeat Zant. It overbuilt him because by that point, the Twilight had been scathed from Hyrule and no longer did Zant truly feel like a threat. Ganon should have been the threat at that point and the Temple of Time, Snowpeak Mansion, City in the Sky, and Palace of Twilight revolved around discovering how to undo him, not Zant. See, Zant is victimized for the wrong reasons. Most say they resent him for his childish nature, but I think it's moreso the case of the duel with him taking place far too long into the story. After undoing the twilight blankets from Hyrule and traveling to the Arbiter's Grounds, that should have been the alert that Zant was coming to and end. His power was to spread Twilight and overtake Hyrule, but after undoing that (sans that dumb twilight diamond that he placed over Hyrule Castle alone — that Ganon was in the whole time which was a terrible excuse to keep Zant in the game til the nigh end) it's obvious we should have eliminated him entirely. From that point on, Ganon would have been perfect.

Imagine this: a recut version of the scene in which the ancient sages are telling you about Ganon. As they are telling you the story, rather than the camera jumping from different views of each Sage, show Ganon leading his troops into Ordon Village and killing everyone off. Yeah, that far. The Twilight is gone, and while that was a sorrowful darkness, Ganon's reign would have been done out of anger for his minion failing to maintain that twilit darkness. The hero had arisen again to shed light on the land, so it was time to spread true despair by burning houses down and killing people. Don't force them into a state of temporary silence with the Twilight. Deliberately kill them. Now that's a motive for Link to truly want to fight Ganon. Hell, that would have been his most savage and darkest appearance yet in the series. All in pursuit of the Triforce and ultimate dominion. Essentially, we would have been experiencing what it was like to live in Hyrule during the seven-year conquest that Ganondorf set off on during OoT, though we'd be active in it. From that point on in the story, it would not have been about assembling a Twilight Mirror and finding an ancient piece of technology to communicate with the Oocca, it would have been about stopping a menace from destroying all that you worked to restore from the initial darkness of the Twilight—the beautiful, lush, colorful world of Hyrule. You had just finished curing it, and now Ganon has taken it into his own hands to make sure he permanently scars the land. What an impetus to fight him!

tl;dr: you're a lazy ****
 

majora_787

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- Water Temple hate
- Zant hate
- Majora's Mask love
- Navi hate
- etc.

Hey, hey, hey. I don't HATE the Water Temple, but I do find it confusing. I just said I like Zant. Navi IS annoying, but admittedly she's part of OoT like Link is.

And also, I loved Majora's Mask before he was a meme. :awesome:

But yeah, those -other- people are obnoxious. If I hear 'you shouldn't have done that' one more time, I'll hit someone with a MM cartridge. I don't usually bandwagon, I get on the MAJORA wagon. And later, I just somehow get attached to the main bandwagon. Sometimes.
 

Lore

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That's a great idea, Spire. I wish that TP was really like that.

I personally didn't like Zant for the "pumped for the fight but denied" reason that you said and because even though they built him up as some huge threat, they kinda threw him to the side in order to introduce Ganon.

I actually loved his insane behavior and wished for him to be developed more, but he honestly needed his own game to truly shine. The way that TP is now, it feels like they wanted to build him up into a new major villain and simply rewrote his ending sections at the last second to involve Ganon. :/

Edit: I actually like WW much more than MM. Get @ me.
 

SkylerOcon

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I still like MM the best out of any of the Zelda games. Maybe because it is a deviation from the norm, but the gameplay itself is incredibly fun to me, and the story kicks *** too.

I agree with everything you said about TP, though. Them forcing Ganon in last minute wouldn't have been bad, had he been given any actual build-up.
 

Phantom7

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I agree; Ganon really did deserve more of a build-up in TP, but more than anything, I believe TP would have been much more interesting if the player was to explore the world of light before Hyrule fell under the Twilight. During the first three dungeons, Zant should have imposed a threat to cloud Hyrule in Twilight, and Zelda should have surrendered the kingdom near the middle of the game. This would give the player a chance to enjoy Link's improved combat control (in human form, not as a wolf) as well as show off a new, massive, and vibrant Hyrule. But once Zelda surrenders to Zant, the kingdom is shrouded in Twilight, Link becomes a dark beast, and Ganon emerges from the darkness, slaughtering innocent civilians and setting buildings and monuments ablaze. At this point, Zant should be destroyed, but Ganon becomes the true villain, revealing himself to be Zant's "god".
 

TheBuzzSaw

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They stem from the misguided theory that Link and Dark Link are lovers.
 

Spire

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His real name is Big Jim.
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And he's also a drug dealer.
 

Spire

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I heard they were making a game about Big Jim, but scrapped the idea to make stupid Skyward Sword instead. :mad:
 

TheBuzzSaw

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If you wanna get scientific about the matter, it would be a baseless hypothesis, not a theory.
 

Ganonsburg

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He already has the entire Gerudo tribe. Would you rather have another girl when you already have one/many, or would you rather go for ultimate power? Anyway, ultimate power => rule world => endless supply of anything you want.
 

Luigitoilet

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So, at this other forum I frequent we are doing a Zelda marathon in anticipation for Skyward Sword. The idea is to finish every major Zelda game, with optional bonus challenges like LoZ with no sword, 3-heart runs, 100%, etc.

It might be cool to do it here as well if enough people are interested and brave enough.

I, myself am on Level 9 of LoZ plain vanilla run and I just beat Blind's Dungeon in LttP. I'm gonna try LoZ 2nd quest for the first time ever but I might give up on it.

I'm also probably going to do my Zelda 2 run with a completed save, so I'll have all the spells and nearly maxed out levels from the beginning. Sure that's "cheating" but man I am not in the mood for going through it for real again so soon.
 

Luigitoilet

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with other items, most chief is the magical wand. bombs kill a lot of things too.. You have to mess with the linearity of the game and visit and revisist temples with different items and stuff.

Mostly it's just about avoiding any fight you don't actually need to do.

and as far as I know the only boss who needs the sword to be killed is Ganon. I could be wrong though.
 
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