The Jiggz Match-Up Thread

[Cold Fusion]

I'm sorry, I was wrong. Can we now have a civil discussion about the Diddy/Jiggs matchup?

We should seeing as how the discussion has been up for almost two weeks.

 

[illinialex24]

Nah, the pink stands for PMSing

Good day

(Please comment on my name color)

 

[Le_THieN]

Apology accepted.

For the sake of clarification:

Jigglypuff's Match-Up Pros:

• has multiple jumps
• boasts one of the fastest horizontal aerial movements in the game
• both contribute to a high degree of mobility and versatility in directional influence
• aerial attacks generally have fast start-up and low cool-down
• they also have decently large and forgiving item-catching ranges
• Pound has high-priority and has virtually no start-up and doubles as a recovery tool when angled
• all qualities combine for two specific byproducts:
  • an effective off-stage game, lending her a greater propensity to gimp at further distances without fear of death
  • decently increases her survival rate when combined with precise DI and prudent management of recovery options

Diddy Kong's Match-Up Pros:

• more overall raw speed and strength
• superior ground game
• banana peels out-prioritize everything in any and all situations
• can KO Jigglypuff at significant early percentages due to her being the lightest character in the game
• higher priority and range on F-air against all of Jigglypuff's aerials
• more comfortably forces predictable approach of others with projectiles
• Monkey Flip can compete and even outclass others' mobility in some cases
• Monkey Kick vs. Pound:
  • arguably comparable in priority
  • can be activated anytime while Diddy is airborne in order to time or space frames with most priority
  • far greater range
  • forgiving spacing, as close quarters activation can result in a high-priority Monkey Hump instead

As you can see, I'm not completely daft or oblivious when it comes to what advantages either character have over each other.

I realize my choice of language when trying to convey these notions might not have been the clearest, as some of you have already observed. Jigglypuff's overall air game is better, but all I was simply trying to propose is that Diddy Kong's individual aerial attacks were generally more useful and versatile. The smart and measured applications of all of them can level the playing field in a way that his overall air game doesn't need to necessarily be better in order to win.

An airborne Jigglypuff in the hands of smart players is one of the most dangerous and underrated threats in the game. I am beyond informed of this fact. It is, however, not uncontainable by any stretch of the imagination, especially by a character that has as many options as Diddy Kong.

Alternatively, many people's general arguments in their respective match-ups against Diddy Kong constantly turn on how much they can neutralize his banana peels and, therefore, his ground game. Perhaps this is still true against a handful of players who have yet to comprehend or tap the full potential of Diddy Kong, but we have generally been forced to adjust and evolve past these dated meta-game notions in order to have even or slightly advantageous match-ups against characters who have safer and better aerial games than Jigglypuff.

Players who use Diddy Kong's item micromanagement to complement his overall assets as a rush-down character and a fortress of defense as opposed to a crutch he constantly leans on is a different beast all together, something which, based on many of your comments, many of you have never even seen before. For the sake of acknowledging that this is still a relatively unexplored match-up however (as I have mentioned before), I am willing to settle that this is an even match-up. For now.

In the meantime, I will happily accept any and all MMs to make any of you realize just how bad of a match-up this is for Jigglypuff. =)

 

[pastaboy]

pndmike, lets record some matches kk?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Pound has high-priority and has virtually no start-up and doubles as a recovery tool when angled

13 frames =/= virtually no start-up

 

[PND]

pndmike, lets record some matches kk?

Sure. You're going to Raidos' tonight, right? My wii has texture hacks now and Ex-Brawl, which lets me record replays of any length.

 

[illinialex24]

Diddy Kong's Match-Up Pros:

• more overall raw speed and strength
• superior ground game
• banana peels out-prioritize everything in any and all situations
• can KO Jigglypuff at significant early percentages due to her being the lightest character in the game
• higher priority and range on F-air against all of Jigglypuff's aerials
• more comfortably forces predictable approach of others with projectiles
• Monkey Flip can compete and even outclass others' mobility in some cases
• Monkey Kick vs. Pound:
  • arguably comparable in priority
  • can be activated anytime while Diddy is airborne in order to time or space frames with most priority
  • far greater range
  • forgiving spacing, as close quarters activation can result in a high-priority Monkey Hump instead

I'm gonna be dissecting these in a way and I'll do the Jigglypuff's later, because I feel both sides overstate and understate many things.

more overall raw speed and strength: This is true on the ground, however, Jigglypuff has a much faster aerial speed than Diddy Kong, although his startup times are generally faster and his kill options are for the most part, better. However, a smart Jigglypuff can use fair's power to her advantage, and she can theoretically rest through any F-smash of Diddy Kong, limiting his kill options (I haven't mastered the DI yet, its pretty complicated I believe), and causing some very high percentage battles.

banana peels out-prioritize everything in any and all situations: They are also much less useful on a character who has 6 jumps and can essentially fly in and out of most situations, and although its normally hard to catch a banana on a good Diddy Kong, its also hard to consistently hit a good Jigglypuff with one, and hitting a Jigglypuff with one on the ground is altogether very rare, making it hard to use bananas as a setup. Throw in the fact that Jigglypuff can hold onto bananas and attack if you have C-stick set to attack, you can do some pretty awesome things if you get a hold of one (I personally don't do that, but others do, I like C-stick to smash although I might switch over, same for aerials, but her tilts kinda suck, so this is only a benefit on "item" characters).

can KO Jigglypuff at significant early percentages due to her being the lightest character in the game: She can rest through many of Diddy Kong's moves, considerably F-smash, and she has moves that even with a perfect DI can kill easily mid 80's, so it isn't nearly as black and white as you say. A fresh fair is a vicious thing, very dangerous, and although Diddy has a killer D-smash, especially near the ledge, and fair can be fairly powerful, I don't love his options.

higher priority and range on F-air against all of Jigglypuff's aerials: Jigglypuff has her slowest aerial coming out in 8 frames, which from my understanding is better than Diddy's fair, throw in her aerial speed and she can space pretty well, and throw in pound, at 13 frames, and although it is a very potent threat, its not a dominating presence. I am more worried about Diddy's ability to fend off approaches and use his ground game to boost his aerial game, than his fair.

more comfortably forces predictable approach of others with projectiles: The good thing about 6 jumps and a fall speed acceleration of like -.04 (I'm not joking, its either .04 or -.04 and a fall speed of almost nothing), you can pretty much go wherever you want, and above and avoid most of what you want. He can force the approach, but she can approach and retreat pretty safely.

Monkey Flip can compete and even outclass others' mobility in some cases: Dangerous offstage if you let your guard down, and a pretty good surprise attack, but with a well spaced retreating bair, it generally loses, and it doesn't have the amazing priority of his other moves when she's in the air, which is most of the time.

Now for the monkey kick vs. pound stuff, both are similar moves in a way:

• Both are punch through moves in way, they have pretty bad ending lag and a longer startup but have huge power
• Both have high "priority" (cause in the air, there is no priority, but for air to ground, they both have high, or in case of Jigglypuff, I guess pound does have high ground to ground but its too slow without acceleration on the ground), and in the air, they will both generally trade or the one that gets the hitbox first will win even at long spacing
• I'm pretty sure I'm right on this however, but Jigglypuff has much better acceleration options through pound both at the start and being able to DI away at the end, making it less punishable than his fair if he misses. This is pretty useful and it is definitely an important trait, plus, she can also choose multiple DI's from the beginning, and even wavebounce back to forth for a useful retreating pound with decent DI options at the end (not often).

I'll be dissecting the Jigglypuff list next.

Oh and to completely devaluate what I just said:

Nah, the pink stands for PMSing

 

[Le_THieN]

All fair points. Arguments that accompany match-up threads on both sides are always going to have slightly biased spins on them, so I'm aware that everything that will ever be said during these types of discussions will always be subject to multiple interpretations.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

A quick note I'd like to make is that most of this discussion is happening on the diddy boards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238749&page=4


I'd also like to add something I already posted over there.

Something I'm surprised no one has come up with yet, is using a banana and comboing it directly into rest. If Jiggs has a banana and diddy misses an attack/is charging an attack, trying to hit you with an attack etc, she can go directly over him and throw the banana straight down. Diddy would then trip and we could use the hitstun to combo into rest. It would be exactly the same thing as the possible trip after dair, except it's guaranteed if the banana hits. Although this is still hypothetical, I could see it working. It just needs to be tested.

 

[Noobicidal]

I could see it. If Ganon has enough time to get a guaranteed F-Smash out of a Banana Choke, then Jiggs shouldn't have any problem with an attack as fast as rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz6EMulsx00&feature=PlayList&p=905FDFE6554B000E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=18

 

[Le_THieN]

@ Jiggernaut: Well, a majority of the cast can combo off of a banana peel into one of their KO moves, but rarely do match-up advantages pivot on these points.

Similarly, I don't think it's fair of you to assume that this match-up oscillates ever so slightly in the direction of Jigglypuff's margin, solely based on the fact that she has something of an advantage once she forces Diddy off-stage. Part of this scenario involves getting Diddy Kong off the stage in the first place, and stripping a Diddy player of his constant stage control to move him into that positional disadvantage is going to be a great deal more difficult than you give him credit for.

I do acknowledge that characters who have multiple jumps or a superior aerial game overall tend to limit Diddy's recovery options more effectively, but many of us have refined alternative recovery techniques and mix-ups in lieu of this fact over the course of the last several months in an effort to at least try and avoid this scenarios to the best of our ability. If the only component to thwarting Diddy were to B-throw him off the stage and edge-guard him accordingly, characters with far more superior aerial games than Jiggz like Marth, Meta Knight and Game & Watch would be having a field day against us.

Clearly, this is not the case.

The bottom line is that we should do our best to omit the use of hypothetical scenarios in order to reach a mutual conclusion about this and all future match-ups. Both sides have been guilty of this (myself included), and the focus should be put back on what realistic advantages each character has against one another, as opposed to what who can do to the other person in very situational scenarios.

While we are at it, I would like to point out that both sides have brought very persuasive arguments to the table in arguing the favor of each specific character. It would appear that both Diddy Kong and Jigglypuff have a variety of answers for a multitude of situations that they can force each other in, and that whatever preconceived advantages each character might have over the other are, at best, situational and do not tilt the margin of favor overwhelmingly in anyone's direction. Until this match-up is explored further in higher-profile MMs or tournament sets, I am willing to settle on this being an even match-up for now.

 

[Framerate]

Idea: resting over Diddy's banana. Will it wake you up, thus reducing lag time?

I can see this being super awesome.

 

[Noobicidal]

Idea: resting over Diddy's banana. Will it wake you up, thus reducing lag time?

I can see this being super awesome.

Yeah; Veril covered this in his Rest thread.

Edit: It seems to have been deleted during the thread transition, but bananas, springs, lava, acid, water and damage cancel Rest's landing lag.

 

[PND]

Sorry I've been so inactive, I've just been going to tourneys nonstop the past couple of weeks. I'll update this hopefully tomorrow some time.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Typo on the Lucario ratio.

I would say 60-40 to 65-34.

It should say 65-35.

 

[PND]

Whoops, thanks for the catch.

 

[TheStig]

i hate lucario's especially the roll spammerz

 

[Framerate]

i hate lucario's especially the roll spammerz

Roll spam = rests galore.

 

[Terra~]

Great work all. I'm making a match-up chart of everything given to me by each board. Keep working on those match-ups so i can get that chart done!

 

[phi1ny3]

I herd u mite liek lucario matchup discussion in the near future, hur-hur.

 

[Cold Fusion]

I do not have much Lucario experience, but I find that pivot grabbing works well against roll spammers.

 

[hichez50]

Well I have only seen one person that can roll spam(seriously) without getting punished to bad.

Anyway lucario has a hard time getting control of the air in my expirence if hes not the one to attack first. Jigglypuff should never ever go on the ground unless she planning to kill or grab ,but when grabbing be careful how you follow up because jigglypuff is a sucker to lucario dair. On the other hand though Jiggs has better grab range than lucario.

When Jigglypuffs kill me is always off stage they get me into a bad position then they abuse lucario for having a recovery with no hitbox. Other than that you can roll using rollout to kill lucario just trying using rollout in the air as pretty much any charater can avoid it when used on the ground.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Since the discussion is dead, I will ask a question. Exactly what should be done about a spot-dodge down-smash spamming R.O.B.?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

either time a pound or Nair/Dair while moving away thats what i do.

 

[PND]

^ Or rest. I love the ROB's that spotdodge Dsmash or roll spam. Hoo boy, do I love them.

 

[Framerate]

Rest
-or-
Chain B-air

I'm sorry. I'm just so excited that I finally have videos recorded. You all should watch all of them. There's a ton of Jiggly vs ROB ones that pretty much display the match-up quite well. I've been playing with Jokey since long before Brawl came out, so we're both very familiar with the match-up.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Since the discussion died again, and since I am too lazy to check I will ask here. Has anyone notified the Lucario and R.O.B.

Spoiler

erto

boards about the matchup discussion?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i don't think anyone did, but i will

 

[PND]

I almost always get in trouble when I notify the other boards, so I've stopped.

 

[The_Bear735]

in my experience, I've been able to absolutely tear through Jigglypuffs that abuse SH Pound or Fair by doing either Jab, Ftilt, Utilt, and sometimes even Fsmash. And AS just ***** Jiggly. I love punishing a rollout recovery with an AS KO. <3

Generally, I'd say this is somewhere around 60-40 for Lucario's favor. Jiggs has to really abuse the fact that Lucario's hitboxes tend to come out somewhat slow. Jiggling (LOL PUN) Lucario off stage is probably the best thing you can do in terms of getting a KO. Keep on Lucario at close range, but always be prepared to retreat if you get shielded.

 

[Vionce]

jiggz can zone pretty well and should be able to avoid a shield grab from Luc. However, lucario's f-air can tear apart zoning attempts. Jiggz fair can trade or even outrange lucario's f-air, but only when parallel. If Lucario is just a little bit over, or a little bit under, Lucario's will win. Try not to attack Lucario's shield, his grabrange is mostly vertical and if it's poorly spaced you'll get grabbed. I don't think tilts will be very useful for Jiggz since pretty much everything Lucario has outranges them. I don't think rollout will be very useful either since the Aura sphere charge can block it entirely when Lucario has 50%. Lucario's fsmash is formidable, but if it wiffs a lot, just jump over and try to f-air him off the stage. There is a small spot where jiggz can f-air the fsmash without getting hit by it.

Lucario has many kill options, but most common will probably be from the fsmash. I find that it connects usually when jiggz mis spaces a fair/bair or screws up getting up from the ledge.

Jiggz kills will mostly come from gimps, u-smash, or f-smash. It may seem hard to get in, but u should be able to smash after shielding an aerial. If a lucario is playing aggro, just shield and grab. The Dash attack should be your favorite move coming from Lucario since it is very easy to shield grab. Jiggz will have to approach due to aura sphere is ranged. However, once jiggz gets some momentumn, it can be very hard to stop her, so the MU isn't hopeless. Lucario's adv for sure.

~edit: stages, i forgot about them. I think RC is good since it gives you the most chances to gimp. Though Lucario has a good air game, he still doesn't do very well on RC. Corneria lets usmash kill earlier due to a low ceiling. Ban Japes or Luigi's mansion since Lucario will live for a very long time there. As for neutrals, YI is decent for jiggz since the small stage make it easier to control. Strike FD since the wide platform gives Lucario lots of options and is hard to control. The plats on battlefield can work against you since lucario's utilt reaches through. I think you should just pick smashville, battlefield, or YI, whichever is most comfortable.

 

[Aurasmash14]

If Jiggs would have a good chance of taking out Lucario, it would be on a stage where you have the better Mobility. RC would be good since Luca will be forced to approach and the fights would mostly be aerials Jiggs strength. Although, Lucario's air game is solid enough to Hold his own high above the ground. also wall of paining him is near impossible. added with his advantage on the ground, and the fact he his the one who will force the approach since jiggs doesnt have her own projectile makes this match in lucario's favor 40:60

 

[phi1ny3]

I lieks lucario utilt, ftilt, jab, AS, and fair/uair in this MU.
RC is best bet for jiggz CP.
I dunno about numbers, I'd figure 60:40 is pretty decent, although quite possibly in some aspects you could say 65:35 (depends mainly on stage).

 

[Metatitan]

Most of jigglypuff's matchups are 30:70 or 35:65

 

[Framerate]

Lucario can disrupt all of our combos/chases with fair/dair/nair.

The match becomes: hit lucario, run away, try to approach, hit lucario, run away, try to approach...

 

[:mad:]

I don't think anyone ever told you, Mike, but you can notify the character boards by linking this via their matchup thread.

Not making an entirely new topic.

 

[Aurasmash14]

the MU is hopeless.

fixed. This matchup is heavily in lucario's favor. 65-35. If you were fighting a good Lucario, jiggs wouldnt stand a chance. AS pretty much owns Jiggs. added to his aura powers, and his anti-air abilities and this match bites jiggs. sorry.

 

[mountain_tiger]

fixed. This matchup is heavily in lucario's favor. 65-35. If you were fighting a good Lucario, jiggs wouldnt stand a chance. AS pretty much owns Jiggs. added to his aura powers, and his anti-air abilities and this match bites jiggs. sorry.

I agree with this, but...

You have just wasted 4 seconds of your life reading this.

You'd have to be the slowest reader ever to take 4 seconds to read that.

 

[PND]

You're pretty much right, Aurasmash, except Aurasphere part. AS doesn't completely own Jiggs. It's everything else you can do that does.

As far as projectiles go, Jiggs is actually really good at not getting hit by them, but when AS is used to bait a reaction you can safely fsmash, even given the start up lag, and there's little we can do to punish it. It's more a matter of not being able to get past the Fsmash. . . if we airdodge, we get hit. If we get hit, we get hit by the fsmash. If we retreat or shield it (considering shield push), we're back at square one. Our only option is go above it, or clash with it, and we can only do that if you're 90% or under.

So used as a means of control it has potency, but we really won't get hit by it that often as a direct attack.

 

[Aurasmash14]

When i talk about an attack i always mean ALL its uses. yes I know AS is easy to dodge (ive tried too many times to make it a finisher but its waaaay to slow >_<) but i also lurve grounding Aerial luvers with this stage controlling projectile.



@ mountain tiger.

I have actually found people who took 10 seconds to read my sig. lol.