The Jiggz Match-Up Thread

[FBC] Papa Mink

Brawl Backroom Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
12,918
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
PapaMink
#1
The Jigglypuff Matchup Discussion Thread


We Are Currently Discussing Mario! Click Here To Join!


Grab Release Export Thread


Table of Contents:

Green - Contains a hyperlink to the export.
White - No link, No export
Red - Currently Discussing.
Blue - Has a link but could use more discussion.



Arranged By Tier v6
God Tier

MetaKnight



Top Tier

Diddy Kong
Snake
Falco -1
Marth
Wario
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu



High Tier

Lucario
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Game And Watch
Toon Link



Middle Tier

:fox: Fox
:wolf: Wolf
:peach: Peach
:dk2: Donkey Kong
:kirby2: Kirby
:rob: Rob
:pit: Pit
:sonic: Sonic
:ike: Ike
:sheilda: Shielda
:luigi2: Luigi
:sheik: Sheik
:ness2: Ness
:yoshi2: Yoshi
:pt: Pokemon Trainer



Low Tier

:lucas: Lucas
:mario2: Mario
:bowser2: Bowser
:samus2: Samus
Captain Falcon Even



Blasphemy Tier

:link2: Link Undecided (No one has experience with Link)
:jigglypuff: Jigglypuff Even
:zelda: Zelda Even
:ganondorf: Ganon
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309528
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309528 +2
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
Moderator
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,624
Location
Rochester, NY
3DS FC
4957-2846-2924
NNID
Sansoldier
#7
For MK's kill moves, grounded shuttle loop would be a nasty thing to watch out for, huh? It's usually the thing that kills me the most, especially with the invincibility frames.. or maybe I just don't know how to DI it well?

For snake's nair, does any of jigglypuff's moves at least clash (not sure if I used the right word--both getting hit), because even a clash benefits jigglypuff. Maybe fair or pound?
 
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
676
Location
NY
#8
Wow. Great job. Well-organized, yadayada.

I'd go with 60:40 for MK, but that may just be because I personally have major issues dealing with him. While we do have the tools to win, it comes down to mostly, if not completely, knowing what he is about to do. I think playing by reaction is a very poor way to go about this (hence why I lose, or cause I just suck) since his moves are so speedy that you can't just REACT. You have to predict what he will do so you know what to do. It's all about being a step ahead for us Puffs, IMO. I don't know if that is coherent or adds much, but I think that is my major thing with MK.

And I totally agree with what was said about Snake. He is just a ***** for Puff. Ftilt beats us out completely, and we HAVE to approach due to nades. It just sucks. /DDD

Again, though, GJ.

EDIT: Pound probably beats out Snake's nair. But I doubt our nair will.
 

Egg Fu Yung

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
461
Location
OMAHA, Nebraska
#9
However, he can be beat, just look to Apex.
A Jigglypuff player beat M2K?

My nub opinion on the subject -
MK: 65/35 - This dude RAPES. Dair beats anything Jigglypuff can dish out. MK kills her hella early/fast. He's the best!
Snake: 70/30 - Explosives are a ***** and so are those tilts. This one is the worst in the nation (minus Olimar n G&W).
 

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
#12
That was referring to Ally vs M2K, not Jiggs specific. The opening paragraph was essentially my "Don't ban MK" paragraph.

However, as far as Jiggs vs MK goes, I've seen firsthand Jiggernaut (Jiggs) beat Zaf (MK) in a set, so there's a Jiggs specific example.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
9,410
Location
Safari Zone. Shiny, and holding a Lucky Egg.
3DS FC
2406-5625-4787
#13
Thank you very much PND for making this, hopefully this will spark this board back to life.

So are you doing all the match ups over again, including the ones we didnt cover?

Once again, thanks for making this :)

Now I just need to chat with people to see if we can get the Stage and Moveset discussions back on track.
 
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
1,793
#14
In Melee mango could.
In melee..... Mango DID

And PND, (or someone else) Im confused about whats been going on here lately. I haven posted in over a month and dont know about the current situation on the boards.

Also, we need a matchup chart on this thread :)
 

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
#15
I have absolutely no artistic ability on a computer, so if someone else could make a chart I would gladly add it in (and give credit!)

And yes, Air, I plan on going through every match up, even the ones covered already.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
9,410
Location
Safari Zone. Shiny, and holding a Lucky Egg.
3DS FC
2406-5625-4787
#16
I'm not really too good about the Jigglypuff match ups but I guess I can contribute some stuff.

I found these, even though they're pretty outdated and ancient, I thought it'd still be nice to bring it here.

Jigglypuff Counters Meta Knight: A Guide
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191854&highlight=metaknight

PDN, have you notified the Meta mains yet?
 

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
#17
Not yet. I was thinking of notifying the respective boards the day after we begin discussion, so there's a base of statements to debate on. But if anyone wants to send a line to the appropriate boards, I won't protest.
 
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
1,793
#18
I have absolutely no artistic ability on a computer, so if someone else could make a chart I would gladly add it in (and give credit!)

And yes, Air, I plan on going through every match up, even the ones covered already.
I could try to make a nice looking matchup chart :)
(I also have to make a new sig lol)

Ill at least make a demo portion of it and see how it goes from there.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
5,567
Location
Northwest NJ
NNID
Dapuffster
#19
Against snake use pound and grabs a lot. Pound can go through his tilts if spaced correctly and can hit them out of their spot dodges. Snake can hit you with a lot of things out of his sheild so he'll have it up constently. Grabbing is a good thing to do because it gets snake in the air. Up throw prevents you from getting hit from grenades. Other than that, you have to wait for snake to mess up to take action.
 

Cold Fusion

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
836
#20
Accourding to this thread, Jigglypuff's Dair beats Shuttle Loop. Also, should we notify the Meta Knight boards about the current disscusion?
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
5,989
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
#25
I still say MK is an even matchup and anyone who says otherwise can just go jump off a bridge.

More beneficial to discussion:

Dair is possibly better against MK than anyone else in the game. You need that diagonal poke! When I played Zoze recently, there was a part where I think I dair'd like 5 approaches in a row. It shuts some of MK's more brute-force approaches down. Including shuttle loop.

Speaking of SL, do try to shield grab glide attacks. If the MK is at all competent, he will space it so he can't get shield grabbed, and you will have needed to have moved forward first.

I don't know what this "d-tilt the tornado" stuff is about. I just dair or nair it. You are so fast in the air that if you shield one, he can't really just do another one and hold you down.

Practice reacting to d-smash, especially repeated. Try to power-shield them to grab.

I do most my damage to MK with throws. I get most my kills with fairs. I get a lot of double or even triple fairs, which are always nice KOs.

Rollout works... pretty good against MK. I get it to hit him more than most characters, and his best response is a dair... not realyl scary enough to make Rollout not worth it.

Honestly, most of this matchup is learning to bait and roll around MK's ground game (to grab), and learning what to do in the air based on where both of you are.

MK can shut Jigglypuff down with dairs. If MK is patient with this, be patient back... he only has 5 jumps, he can't dair forever. Honestly, I haven't done this in a match, but charging Rollout with perfect timing on his 4th jump, due to his terrible aerial mobility, could freak him out. I think domo actually suggested this and I forgot. Hmmmm...

As for Snake...

I've said that this would be in Jigglypuff's favor if it wasn't for u-tilt... but u-tilt is a reality we have to live with, no point johning about it. You just have to play this matchup really, really cautiously only you reach a KO-able percent. Every KO Snake gets should be with u-tilt, let's be honest.

Grenades don't bother me much at all. Even Snake's I've played that are incredible with Grenades... who cares? Snaek can't throw them diagonally, which is where I am, because I'm Jigglypuff and that's ALWAYS where Jigglypuff is. Same thing with the mortar slide... doesn't affect Jiggs because she shouldn't ever be approaching Snake from the ground. (UNLIKE META KNIGHT!)

It's really important to keep fair fresh, as you can't poke snake to death like you might be able to with others. (And it takes too long for u-tilt to kill...) Luckily, you seldom need to resort to fair to hit Snake; if you have an opening, normally bair will do the trick. Pound is decent too. If his shield is low, hound him (probably with pound), because once you get in on Snake you should be able to make up lost ground.

Obviously, Snake Eaters (Cipher Grabs) are nice, and very possible with Jiggs. Bair is GREAT against the cipher, though obviously if fair will kill do that. (Don't miss and sourspot though!) Don't underestimate Snake's aerials; you should win all aerial battles, but only by being cautious.

And please, powershield EVERYTHING when fighting Snake. You really need to.
 

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
#26
Hey Thinkaman, you've had some really good posts on matchup numbers beings basically bunk, and that people should focus on the knowledge being posted, not the numbers. (That's a massive paraphrase)

Could I use that as the Forward? Because it's REALLY true.
 

Cold Fusion

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
836
#27
I assume people are still going to want the match-up numbers.
 

SuSa

Super Banned
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
#28
Grenades don't bother me much at all. Even Snake's I've played that are incredible with Grenades... who cares? Snaek can't throw them diagonally, which is where I am, because I'm Jigglypuff and that's ALWAYS where Jigglypuff is. Same thing with the mortar slide... doesn't affect Jiggs because she shouldn't ever be approaching Snake from the ground. (UNLIKE META KNIGHT!)

Snake can too throw diagonally, ever seen a Snake NOT shield drop the grenade to throw it? :confused: Also Mortar goes UP Mortar goes DOWN. We don't just use it for the "laying" hitbox... there's a neat missile that comes out. But Snake shouldn't be using DACUS against Jiggly anyways.

It's really important to keep fair fresh, as you can't poke snake to death like you might be able to with others. (And it takes too long for u-tilt to kill...) Luckily, you seldom need to resort to fair to hit Snake; if you have an opening, normally bair will do the trick. Pound is decent too. If his shield is low, hound him (probably with pound), because once you get in on Snake you should be able to make up lost ground.

Truth.

Obviously, Snake Eaters (Cipher Grabs) are nice, and very possible with Jiggs. Bair is GREAT against the cipher, though obviously if fair will kill do that. (Don't miss and sourspot though!) Don't underestimate Snake's aerials; you should win all aerial battles, but only by being cautious.

Watch our for our disjointed nair. Also our bair can be tricky sometimes, but again truth is spoken here.

And please, powershield EVERYTHING when fighting Snake. You really need to.

You should be doing that in like.. every matchup anyways.

Comments in sexy Cyan.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
5,989
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
#29
Feel free.

Though, just to be a spiteful hypocrite, I think I'm going to post some matchup numbers:

7:3
Ganondorf, Captain Falcon

65:35
Diddy, Ivysaur, Ike, Sonic

6:4
Mario, Bowser, Link, Shiek, Samus, Pit, Falco, Lucas

55:45
Peach, Yoshi, ROB

5:5
Toon Link, Zamus, Meta Knight, Olimar, Lucario, Charizard, Jigglypuff

45:55
Luigi, DK, Kirby, DeDeDe, Fox, Pikachu, Squirtle

4:6
Zelda, Ice Climbers, Ness, Snake

35:65
Wario, Marth

3:7
Wolf

2:8
Game & Watch

I was going to list the people I've played against of each character with them to add some reference or benchmark of my perspectives, but I figured that might come across as just a pretentious list of the people I've played. (Which isn't really that exhaustive.)
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
6,713
Location
Napa, California . . . .Grapes For Miles
3DS FC
0989-1847-5768
#30
I usually have no problem vsing meteknights with Jigglypuff, well being the godly pund jigglypuff has and that it can cut through most of meteknights attacks like butter :D

I also remember someone finding a grab release that can lead to a fair next to the edge I think.

the only thing you wont be doing much is gimping .
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
5,989
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
#31
I know Snake can lob grenades diagonally by default, I just don't care about it because it's slow, non-threatening, and Snake is totally vulnerable if he was trying to cook it like that.

As for the mortar slide, I find the mortar easy to air dodge. If Snake tries to keep doing it, he eats a pound--like you said, no reason to do it. I like fighting Snakes who are obsessed with doing it non-stop no matter the matchup...

You are right about the disjointed nair being the main worry, that thing hurts! I think I also used to try to get uairs on Snake after high recoveries, and ended up eating dairs sometimes.

As far as power-shielding, I think it's specifically important against Snake, even more than against everyone else. (Which is pretty dang important.)

the only thing you wont be doing much is gimping .
I gimped OS once. >_> No real point to me adding this, just saying...

Against lesser MKs you can actually beat them to the edge with your top-notch air mobility, they won't be used to it... you can make them die from hogging their shuttle loop!

**********

EDIT: Guys, I'd like to give the matchup chart guys some up-to-date, accurate matchup numbers, I mean they really need it. Go ahead and tell me what you think are wrong with my numbers, so we can proceed to tell each other how stupid we are.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
5,989
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
#33
How? I have still yet to see any proof besides the typical arm-chair quarterbacking.

For example, domo and affinity are much better players than me; they can ditto me with my secondaries like Ness and I can only barely win. They are really good MKs, who place well in our region. Yet despite being considerably better than me, I can consistently almost beat them on neutrals and reliably beat them on counter-picks.

I can't do as well against an equally good Snake or Wario or Marth, and I certainly can't do as well against say G&W... When I beat UTD Zac on a CP, that was mostly luck and me playing at my best.

MetalMusicMan is one of the best players in St. Louis, probably just under my level. He has a solid MK, which I can beat on neutrals I'd guess about 65-70% of the time.

In all my experience, it looks exactly like an even matchup.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
5,989
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
#34
Double post to compare My numbers with those for every other board with a Jiggs number that disagrees:

Marth has us at 70, I consider him 65, whatever.

ROB has us at 60, for reasons that are beyond me. You are an air character, and ROB's slow aerials leave massive blind spots that Jiggs can take advantage of better than anyone. ROB is one of my favorite matchups with Jiggs, ROB can't really do anything scary besides nair, which Jiggs is fast enough in the air to punish. D-smash gets wrecked by Jiggs's diagonal priority if you can bait it. It's easy to keep fair fresh against him too, though he does live a long time. I have ROB at 40.

Olimar has us at 75, which is to be expected really: Olimar eats bad Jigglypuffs for breakfast, like shootign fish in a barrel. Of course, as has been discussed a great deal, a good Jigglypuff that knocks the matchup will be avoiding all those scary grabs and most the u-smashes, and beating Olimar soundly in the air. Anyone who disagrees with this matchup being 50 or similar might as well be wearing a giant sign that says "I don't know how to play Jigglypuff".

Kirby and Pikachu boards both have us at 60, I have both at 55. Whatever. (Kirby boards are probably right, Pikachu meh.)

ICs consider us 45, which sounds about until they realize that Blizzard shuts down everything we can do and makes us approach in risky, grab-able ways. I stand by my 60.

TL and Zamus have us at 60, I have them at 50. Meh, I just think their numbers are inflated. Zamus specifically is a better matchup once Jiggs learns to never get hit by side-B... she has the mobility, no excuse to get hit by it.

Pit boards have us at 60, I don't even know what to think about that, lol. Ky's a better player than me, one of the best Pits, and I won the majority of the games we've played. Jiggs has none of the qualities Pit likes in his opponents...

Peach has us at 55, again, I think that's inflated. I have not played any Peach players better than me though, so I am unqualified to say too much. Peach players close to my level don't give me problems at all though... I have it at 45, might be 50.

Luigi has us at 65... It's better once Jigglypuff starts being paranoid about up-B, but sitll in his favor. 55.

Zelda has us at 65 to my 60. Meh, whatever.

Shiek has us at 45 to my 40. Meh, whatever.

Ike has us at 60... huh? Ike, who can't hit us with anything but jabs and is gimped incredibly easily, has an advantage against Jiggs? When I played Mr. Doom in several games recently, who I consider a better and smarter player than me, I think I won a majority. (Close games though!)

Lucas has us at 65, totally confusing me. Again, I haven't really played any Lucas players better than me, and Lucas players near my skill level give me no trouble.

Samus has us at 55, which also baffles me. I don't have much trouble with Metal or Joker's excellent Samus.

Sonic boards have us at--oh wait, no one cares, it's the Sonic board.

Yoshi has us at 60, furthering the delusion that Jigglypuff's only purpose in life is to jump into their u-smashes. Bwett's better than me, and we were going dead even. It's 45 for Yoshi.

Ganondorf board has us at 60, I have it at 70. Poor Ganon board, can you blame them? Really, can you?
 

Metatitan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
3,576
Location
Six Feet Under
#35
face dojo or m2k and then reconsider. regardless look at ally's falcon vs m2k and dojo, those m2ks probly dont know how to handle a pro bottom tier char user
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
5,989
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
#36
I'd love to, but it wouldn't say much since they are so far above my level. Jiggs could have a huge advantage and they'd still beat me; I was lucky to get a single stock off DSF's MK, though I was rather worse then.

It is much more beneficial to compare my Jigglypuff to MKs slightly above, equal to, and below my level.

If the matchup numbers are truly supposed to represent top-25-level play only, then Jigglypuff's matchup numbers are all 0:100 because no top 25 player plays Jigglypuff. High-level regional data is the best I can offer, sorry if that isn't good enough.
 

Zorai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
329
Location
NYC
NNID
x_Zorai
#40
I'm an MK player and I was told to put feedback on this thread. So here's my advice:

MK is aggressive, so he's gonna be running after you with dash attacks and attempts at aerial poking. That's when you control the aerial game with D-Air; it'll mess him up and create a good setup. Pound gets annoying for a MK, so make sure you use it if not your most over-used move.
Also, ALWAYS be on the retreating/defensive side, because MK's hate chasing people, so the chances of them screwing up increases. Most aggressiveness leads to clumsiness - so make it happen for the MK and you could actually do this.

But just remember this: no Jigglypuff is ever going to beat a MK who knows what he's doing and is taking the match very seriously. That is, unless you go to the extreme, which is hard to dish out in normal-level competitive play.

There you go.
 
Top