WastingPenguins
Smash Ace
You're embarrassing yourself worse than you'll ever know.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntkoUSScfRc
Think again. I know this is Melee, but still, she is just weaker in Brawl.
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You're embarrassing yourself worse than you'll ever know.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntkoUSScfRc
Think again. I know this is Melee, but still, she is just weaker in Brawl.
I think they're relating it to an example of like Melee Fox being one of the hardest to play at a competitive level in Melee despite being the number one character in the game. The problem with Brawl is that there is essentially no tech skill to the game and little to no punishment system, so I believe the order for this is essentially the order of the tier list.I don't get it.
Metaknight is the easiest character to play at a competitive level; that is why he is at the top of the tierlist.
Captain Falcon is the hardest; that is why he is at the bottom.
Why does this thread exist?
Yeah, after that, it changes. For example, Ice Climbers are higher than Fox, but Fox is easier. Snake is higher than a lot of people, but he is still considered to be hard to play with.I don't get it.
Metaknight is the easiest character to play at a competitive level; that is why he is at the top of the tierlist.
Captain Falcon is the hardest; that is why he is at the bottom.
Why does this thread exist?
i somewhat agree with youYou pretty much described ROB right there, and listed him as the easiest. He can spam like a mofo, but it wont do **** in the competitive scene. ROB has fewer kill moves than Marth, and in fact ROBs moves are more riskey. Plus ROB is VERY un-agile. You have to keep using Glide tossing, RARs, Wavebouncing, and cancels to stay unpredictable.
And theres only like five ROB pros.
then if i give you a month you should be able to start placing in ankokus rankings, and making money at high level tournaments right?kRaZyAzN said:Anyone can master MK within two weeks, tops.
The easiest to play at a competative level within the character.I don't get it.
Metaknight is the easiest character to play at a competitive level; that is why he is at the top of the tierlist.
Captain Falcon is the hardest; that is why he is at the bottom.
Why does this thread exist?
you can win the threadWhy do some of you make it seem like the amount of ATs a character has defines their difficulty. Other things go into a characters learning curve besides ATs.
This would Totally be sig-worthy If i had more room in my current one... lmaoit takes a long time to learn all of his matchups, flaws and capabilities.
lol I agree with djbrowny.then if i give you a month you should be able to start placing in ankokus rankings, and making money at high level tournaments right?
it takes a long time to learn all of his matchups, flaws and capabilities.
Because, they're obviously not familiar with characters that are difficult without ATs.Why do some of you make it seem like the amount of ATs a character has defines their difficulty. Other things go into a characters learning curve besides ATs.
*facedesk*Doesn't the world champion of Melee use Marth? Doesn't he use Marth in Brawl too? Doesn't he win?
Marth is not hard to play with at a competitive level.
Agreed.Marth is not easy to play competitveily at a high level...
*10facepalms*then if i give you a month you should be able to start placing in ankokus rankings, and making money at high level tournaments right?
it takes a long time to learn all of his matchups, flaws and capabilities.
The issue isn't so much that his game is complex.since when was marth exactly "hard to use?" not saying hes the easiest or even top 3 but you gotta admit marth isnt that hard. saying "omg marth has spacing" well every character does, the fact that marth has it Much easier with spacing makes it a big plus.
GoGo its marth!
Space with f-airs and d-tilts
Punish with DB or UpB OoS
Kill with edgeguarding or F-smash out of shield
marth really has nothing beyond the basics to learn and anone who is looking for a good secondary that already has most of theese basics will have an easy time learning how to be a competent not tourney winner material..but a competent marth capable of being a good counterpick.
You are indeed correct.
It seems like Marth has to land a tipper on the actual body of the character for the most part.
And it also seems a characters hurtbox does not fully extend to the entire length of that characters limbs which can be annoying when you want to land a tipper.
Also sometimes if you aim to tipper a specific part of the body, often times Marth's sword will actually hit a different part of the body so you won't get a tipper. Like say you want to hit someones head with a tipper but the inside of Marth's sword makes contact with a characters shoulder or something before you can tipper the head and you get a non-tipper instead.
This just reinforces the fact that Marth is about 100% precision at all times.
phailEasiest:
...
Marth
Every character has a very tight margin of space to look over, this isn't exclusive to Marth. Besides, when does Marth become useless without spacing margins? This isn't like Bowser who can get comboed into rediculousness every time someone gets into his zone; nor is it like Pit whose options are greatly reduced to almost zero when someone zones him. Marth has plenty of options from far away, up close, in a median range- a good Marth player should be able to get out of any situation and his game is not compromised at any point.His spacing margins are very tight, and without that spacing, he becomes pretty much useless. Granted, he definitely has the moves to maintain that spacing. But in practice, doing it at a competitive level is very difficult.
I'd rather have a character that requires 100% precision all the time than a character that has to cover a huge weakness that, if exploited at any time, creates an almost insurmountable hole that the player can't climb out of. Marth can't get comboed easily, gimped easily, or be rendered usless at any situation. There is no shortcoming that prevents Marth from becoming competitive.Actually, the entire thread that the quote is in pretty much explains why Marth is 100% precision at all times. That's just how you're required to play Marth competitively, and that's why he's hard.
It's not about his game being overly complex, it's just that applying it well is VERY difficult.
No, because Marth has signifigantly tighter zones of effectiveness. Granted he has more options outside those zones then a lot of characters, but to play him on the competitive level, since you've got the tools to space to keep them in that area, it just REQUIRES precision.Every character has a very tight margin of space to look over, this isn't exclusive to Marth. Besides, when does Marth become useless without spacing margins? This isn't like Bowser who can get comboed into rediculousness every time someone gets into his zone; nor is it like Pit whose options are greatly reduced to almost zero when someone zones him. Marth has plenty of options from far away, up close, in a median range- a good Marth player should be able to get out of any situation and his game is not compromised at any point.
It's the skill of the player, not the character, that plays the biggest role in determining how far he/she will be at a competitive level. If the player is incapable of creating options and spacing well, he/she is not going to advance, no matter whoat character he or she is using.
You're TOTALLY misunderstanding the topic, we're not talking about which characters are hardest to compete in tournaments with, we're talking about what characters it's hardest to get to the top of the metagame with.I'd rather have a character that requires 100% precision all the time than a character that has to cover a huge weakness that, if exploited at any time, creates an almost insurmountable hole that the player can't climb out of. Marth can't get comboed easily, gimped easily, or be rendered usless at any situation. There is no shortcoming that prevents Marth from becoming competitive.
If we're assuming (which I don't think we are) that the player being discussed here is a newb that needs to climb to a competitive level (and thus doesn't have the gist of proper spacing and such), then Marth is definately not the right choice. However, if we're assuming (which I think we are) that the player we're talking about is a player that is knowledgeable about spacing and zoning and all the player needs to do is learn the minutae of the character, then I think Marth is an easy choice.
You obviously didnt read the title. it says easiest/most difficult characters to play at a competitive level. competitive level =/= top of metagameYou're TOTALLY misunderstanding the topic, we're not talking about which characters are hardest to compete in tournaments with, we're talking about what characters it's hardest to get to the top of the metagame with.
Take a look at his explanation, he said "at a high level of competition" and further explains, aka, the character's limits or close to.You obviously didnt read the title. it says easiest/most difficult characters to play at a competitive level. competitive level =/= top of metagame
Marth can handle himself offstage far better than almost every character which doesn't have multiple jumps or rocket boosters, considering the speed and range his aerials come out to prevent the other character from gimping him.No, because Marth has signifigantly tighter zones of effectiveness. Granted he has more options outside those zones then a lot of characters, but to play him on the competitive level, since you've got the tools to space to keep them in that area, it just REQUIRES precision.
On the other hand, there's a much larger zone where most characters work optimally against other characters.
Granted, it's different on individual match-ups (try outspacing the Grenades with MK vs. Snake), but in general, Marth has a tiny tiny optimal zone that you gotta use correctly to play him correctly.
This is especially important for high-leveled Marth play because he basically has no safe kill moves, so if you don't play safe the entire game, you're way too vulnerable to low percentage gimps.
-__-You're TOTALLY misunderstanding the topic, we're not talking about which characters are hardest to compete in tournaments with, we're talking about what characters it's hardest to get to the top of the metagame with.
You're the one that's mistaken, and my previous explanation does not justify the errors you have here. High level of competition implies competitiveness, as in high-level players going against each other, so it actually is a combination of playing at the top of the metagame and playing in tournaments.I was wondering what the opinions of the SWF were on which characters were easiest/hardest to play at a high level of competition.
In reality, the "top of the metagame" is dependant on how much you master that particular character; as a Metaknight at the top of his metagame will nearly always beat a Captain Falcon at the top of his metagame. You can a Captain Falcon with the best space control, the best usage of all of his moves, the best mindgame capabilities out of every other Captain Falcon player out there, but his character weaknesses will ensure that Captain Falcon will not beat Metaknight. That is why Captain Falcon is so much harder to play at a competitive level than Metaknight- because his innate character weaknesses will always hold him back.Having a devestating character-specific weakness doesn't make them hard to play at the top of the metagame, it just means that the top of the metagame is going to not be as powerful as it is for other characters. Ganondorf for example, is almost impossible to get far in tournaments with, but his tactics really aren't difficult at all. The spacing is easy to understand (but hard to maintain except against some characters. The only really difficult point is the extensive Yomi required to make flamechoke REALLY effective.
See the paragraph above.Granted, some characters have complex strategies that simply make them very difficult to understand and play. But the requirement of ungodly precision is as much a factor in character difficulty as the complexity of utilizing and understanding the strategies.
Agreed, but as I said earlier, any player who wants even a shot at high-level play will already have spacing covered. With most other characters, the player will need to incorporate new strategies and work their moveset around any weaknesses that moveset has in providing that spacing. Marth's moveset gives him more than he needs to create proper spacing; the player just has to perfect it.And realistically speaking, spacing is not anywhere near as easy as you make it out to be. It's one of the higher understandings of competative gaming. It's just some characters have such wide margins of error for "optimal spacing" that it SEEMS easy. But at the top levels of play, there's a very obvious difference between spacing with Marth and spacing with Falcon.
Easiest for me- MK, ROB and Snake
Hardest- CF, Peach and Luigi
Ftilt
†Are you kidding?†
†Snake takes forever to be used well.†