The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[CyberGlitch]

That code would serve little purpose.

Brawl+ as a project will either have a set buffer frame length, or one that can be adjusted in game somehow, not by controller ports. If four players want lower (standard) buffer, they should, and will get it.

A Controller ports based code is not the way to give this option. It'd cater to those who don't want the buffer. If you don't want it, disable it in your own system. Brawl+ is dedicated to reaching a standard, one that allows all characters to reach their potential. The buffer value chosen as standard should reflect this (2 frame buffer seems best).


I'm sorry if you feel offended by the hard opposition to VBrawl buffer, and the way individuals on this topic seem to look on those who favor it, but the goals of the project are clear. VBrawl buffer is a threat against progress made in Brawl+. I'd argue that 0, or even 1 frame buffer is the same sort of threat. I don't think we should require individuals to have frame perfect timing and they shouldn't have unintended moves. Good control doesn't just mean an exact and immediate translation of controller inputs to player actions. The experienced individuals in the back will collectively figure it out.

You aren't going to convince reversion to VBrawl buffer, this I know, but you always have the option of disabling buffer yourself.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I said I'm done trying to convince anybody, I don't expect anyone to understand. I'm here to waste mine and everyone elses time.

Also, thats no threat to the project's progress. Good players will always take advantage of the game's design and separate themselves from the bad. The project's life depends on the people behind it alone.

I play with whatever the standard is to get used to it for tourneys.

 

[Archangel]

It would be an easy fix


Wow I honestly don't know what to say. Thanks for that. I kinda wish I knew what the exploitative was....or maybe I don't??? I'm glad you think we are in the right direction. Its nice to know we are doing things right

If we can get handicap buffering, I think everyone will be happy.

don't have to say anything just make sure things keep getting better. Like Techs and stuff. I miss the melee meteor cancels but they just won't work right in Brawl+ but we got is good.
I never thought I would but I actually enjoy playing with characters that I use to not even glance at. DK, Sonic, Captain Falcon, Gannon etc... Now I don't even use the favorite characters that much...btw is it just me or does MK suck?

You care about my feeling?

 

[Mobbin]

Could someone post a code which speeds up Wolfs Up-Tilt? I think it has too much ending lag to start combos.
Thanks in advance

 

[Starscream]

I don't know if this is just happening to me but.. Using the feb 22 codeset- the most recent one- every time i play a match with items on, the game will freeze at about the middle of the match. It's happens consistently only when i use items.. Has this been happening to anyone else??

I've tested every item and the only time it freezes are after the duration of a super/poison mushroom or when picking up a metal box or bunny hood. Since all these items change character jump/weight properties I'm assuming all the character specific changes don't mesh well with it and a freeze occurs. I don't know, just a hypothesis. Doesn't really matter since I don't play with items but I was playing SSE the other day because I was bored and avoiding those items kinda sucked.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Does anybody mind telling me why we are using 8.4% hitstun rather than 8.5%?

 

[Greenpoe]

Lets see. For the next beta. Off the top of my head:

-Make links recovery better
-Slightly Lower the % that Ivy's uair gives. (It combo tech chases easily which makes the opponents damage skyrocket.
-Make Meta Knights up b slightly worse somehow (It's still broken)
-Freeze Lylat Cruise
-Shorten the amount of time Wario's down smash takes to finish

Will add more later. Of course these are just suggestions. Everyone might not agree with them but most should.

Freezing Lylat doesn't make it flat. Wario's D-smash is meant to be high-risk. Ivysaur has become a character who is good on stage, but has a fail recovery, like Olimar, or Falco in Melee.

The small stages is just a problem in general. Momentum might make this slightly more apparent, but the stages have been an issue long before it.

I think we should get a side project going for Brawl+, a Brawl+ Stage-pack. It'd include the custom stages that cater to competitive play (neutral, large enough for a ground game, etc). It'd also eliminate the arguable need to freeze pictochat.

I can create the topic on the Brawl Stage Discussion board if you guys would like (I'm mainly looking for Kupo's acknowledgment). I'd post guidelines on what we are looking for, what to avoid (ladders, springs, perhaps walls) and a few other tidbits to standardize submission. I'd of course have you guys look over what I'd intend to post before I start the topic.

You guys game?

I agree. With the hacked stages program, we could make all kinds of stages, the only problem would be choosing which fit as neutral.

 

[Revven]

Does anybody mind telling me why we are using 8.4% hitstun rather than 8.5%?

kupo said this earlier on but, I guess you didn't see it. The reason is because when we get the code to disable AD'ing during the tumble, hitstun can be turned down a tiny bit.

 

[Adapt]

kupo said this earlier on but, I guess you didn't see it. The reason is because when we get the code to disable AD'ing during the tumble, hitstun can be turned down a tiny bit.

+8.5% is a bit too much with momentum added to the codeset. I turned mine down to +7.5%, I may put it up a touch though because I noticed Sonic is now having a hard time comboing. Alternately, if he gets some momentum it should be fine.

 

[SketchHurricane]

You guys know that it's okay for characters to have bad moves right?...You don't have to use every move a character has, and as a result it's not important that every move be useable.

Food for thought.

Any good player can capitalize well on something.
I personally think versatility outweighs bigger rewards. Its not making every character play the same, its making awkward options more viable.

Both of these points are valid.

While there is nothing wrong with buffing "useless" moves, it should only be done to characters that need a buff in the first place, and not necessarily to characters that are decent but just happen to have a bad move. This is what Dark Sonic is trying to say.

That point also ties into what Blank Mauser is trying to say, that a good player can still utilize a "bad" move if the situation calls for it. You must realize that "useless" is heavily subjective. Dark Sonic claims that Sonic's nuetralB is useless, but look at a Rats vid and you will see him using it quite a bit. Earlier it was stated that charging Link's upB was a bad mechanic (implying that it shouldn't be used), but it's almost no different from charging any smash attack (therefore useful in similar situations). You can land a Falcon Punch with no ASL on. You can land a Lucas upSmash.

This is why I have some issue with the Lucas buffs. I didn't hear any complaints whatsoever about Lucas as a character, and all of a sudden we're increasing his options? There has to be some justification other than "the moves were useless." If we do this to Lucas, we definitely have to look at every single character and buff their "useless" moves in light of fairness, and that just begging for endless arguments on any particular move.

For instance, if you buff Lucas' throw speed, you have to buff Samus', which is way crappier. Even crappier is ZSS's throw, but she's already so good...

I'll be the first to agree that Wario's dsmash is complete crap, but that doesn't in itself justify a buff, since you can get around the "crap" part of it with proper application (only dsmash at high percents), not to mention that Wario needs no buff whatsoever at this point.

The moral of this story is, we should only be looking at buffing the useless moves of characters that need buffs in the first place to prevent a slippery slope.

 

[Finns7]

Basically no one has given me feedback...Spam arrows, the game does feel good when you adjust to the momentum. But that doesnt mean its great addition. I like V3, glitches in all I infact felt beta 3.3 (when i tested it) momentum was too much for certain chars. But still, we are talkin smash here, people will abuse the momentum at V3, and at any lvl.

With momentum, you can approach from anywhere even if your put in gay sittuations set up skillfully by ur opponent (homogenize) and not get punished. Ex one of samus's advantages over ganon is her projectiles. If i can simply dash ( not needing to cover ground btw) and ad i can get through her homing zair ect, and be right in her face, this works for every char and it really looks sloppy. I know we all want momentum but VB's was truly the best, because it was designed 100% for the system. Our code helps out certain chars get back to there ol M word state. I was quite sure we didnt want the M word to have much to do with brawl+, espeacially if it makes the game feel foreign,and doesnt look right when used to its full potential.

Im askin, can someone convince me otherwise please give feedback.

As for buffer I think that the handicap would solve our problem if possible. If it takes too much lines but is possible I would keep it in mind and go back if we reach a way to attain more. We still got a ways to go anyway, no point in rushing perfection, plus is not ready for gold with its black screen and various other RARE and extremely small glitches. But we gotta do things right or else we will get no respect.

 

[Problem2]

I second Finn's opinion. I have been thinking that way for a while, and I know that Brawl isn't necessarily balanced as in the characters have equal potential, but there is a balance to how the game plays, and so far, we have been very careful not to break it. Like with the air dodging, I think the momentum of VBrawl is too important for the overall feel of the game.

 

[trojanpooh]

The handicap buffer idea does sound very intriguing. I wonder if it would be possible...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Considering you already know my stance on Sonic, I'll just pitch in.

As much as its okay to make it so characters can capitalize better on a certain option, the reason characters are top tier is because they have good options for almost every situation. We don't have to buff every move, but just making small changes to buff moves you've seen good players use in situations you already know about isn't the best way to actually balance the game. Any good player can capitalize well on something.

I personally think versatility outweighs bigger rewards. Its not making every character play the same, its making awkward options more viable.

Sonic needs more killing options btw.

And considering you know my stance on Sonic, I'll post my rebuttal (without going into how good or bad Sonic is for the sake of the arguement).

I wasn't saying that characters shouldn't be able to capitalize on different situations. I was saying that having bad moves doesn't make that character automatically bad. The only moves that determine whether a character is good or not is their good moves, since those are the moves that will become the staple to the character's metagame. It's those moves that must be able to capitalize on multiple situations. Take Marth's side B for instance. It is a great move for punishing small amounts of lag (4 frame startup), it's great for punishing rolls and spotdodges due to it's multihit nature, it's good for racking damage, and at higher percents it could act as a safe kill move (in comparison to his other kill moves). It's laser priority even prevents clanking with other attacks, so you can take full use of it's disjointedness. With all that in mind...does Marth ever need to use his jab? Isn't this almost always a better option?

That's what I mean when I say it's okay for a good character to have bad moves, and that a move being bad doesn't in itself justify buffing it. Many times characters will still be able to deal with the situation that you'd be trying to solve by buffing the move (like in Wario's case, why use D-smash when you can use F-smash?). Sure it might not be the optimal choice, and sure the character would be better if you buffed that bad move, but buffing a move is buffing the character as a whole, since now they have a new tool to use in different situations, thus making the character better as a whole. But we shouldn't be buffing characters that are already good (or even just decent), since that only widens the gap between them and bad characters.

@Finn7-we're trying to get a character specific momentum code that works based of the v3 code. We also want airdodging to completely cancel the dash momentum and revert you bad to your character's max air speed (like in vBrawl) to solve that problem. A lot of characters really do feel better with momentum, almost as if they were designed with it in some cases (case in point Falcon). The funny thing is that they most likely were designed with it, because it was present in the EforAll demo before brawl came out (as well as dash dancing, hitstun, and a new form of l-cnaceling)

 

[Shell]

@Sketch - I'm completely fine with doing the same to Samus, if she needs it. ZSS has an amazing standing dash grab, though, and is also an amazing character. It seems pretty balanced.

I completely agree about not arbitrarily reducing lag on cool down. Also, the reason no one has been saying anything about Lucas is more likely related to the fact that no one plays him. He's "playable," but even a half an hour of playing both Ness and Lucas in Brawl+ should show you that one is a much more potent character. Ness got a whole new game. Lucas plays pretty similarly to vBrawl. Most of his arials had little lag to begin with, or could be auto-canceled. He gains few real combos, and faster movement/gameplay means you're even less likely to land that U-smash / grab.

I don't mean to blow this out of proportion, I just had to be adamant about it if I wanted anyone to even consider it, much less actually playtest it. The change isn't even as huge as the frames would suggest. I simply changed it from Whiff = eat a charged smash / grab / combo --> Whiff = eat a smash / grab / combo.

 

[Adapt]

@Sketch - I'm completely fine with doing the same to Samus, if she needs it. ZSS has an amazing dash grab, though, and is also an amazing character. It seems pretty balanced.

Sorry, but ZSS has a terrible dashgrab. We all know about the terrible ending lag but there's more: It comes out on frame 17 (later than a standing grab), D-smash comes out on frame 20 and has slightly less range so it is almost always a better choice because you can grab right after. To make things worse it has a blind spot right near the gun at which it will just travel right through a character and she cannot grab Ivysaur (maybe other chars) most of the time because it goes right through the bulb.

Please note that I am not advocating that it be buffed, but I want to make it clear that it is an all around terrible move.

 

[Blank Mauser]

And considering you know my stance on Sonic, I'll post my rebuttal (without going into how good or bad Sonic is for the sake of the arguement).

I wasn't saying that characters shouldn't be able to capitalize on different situations. I was saying that having bad moves doesn't make that character automatically bad. The only moves that determine whether a character is good or not is their good moves, since those are the moves that will become the staple to the character's metagame. It's those moves that must be able to capitalize on multiple situations. Take Marth's side B for instance. It is a great move for punishing small amounts of lag (4 frame startup), it's great for punishing rolls and spotdodges due to it's multihit nature, it's good for racking damage, and at higher percents it could act as a safe kill move (in comparison to his other kill moves). It's laser priority even prevents clanking with other attacks, so you can take full use of it's disjointedness. With all that in mind...does Marth ever need to use his jab? Isn't this almost always a better option?

That's what I mean when I say it's okay for a good character to have bad moves, and that a move being bad doesn't in itself justify buffing it. Many times characters will still be able to deal with the situation that you'd be trying to solve by buffing the move (like in Wario's case, why use D-smash when you can use F-smash?). Sure it might not be the optimal choice, and sure the character would be better if you buffed that bad move, but buffing a move is buffing the character as a whole, since now they have a new tool to use in different situations, thus making the character better as a whole. But we shouldn't be buffing characters that are already good (or even just decent), since that only widens the gap between them and bad characters.

@Finn7-we're trying to get a character specific momentum code that works based of the v3 code. We also want airdodging to completely cancel the dash momentum and revert you bad to your character's max air speed (like in vBrawl) to solve that problem. A lot of characters really do feel better with momentum, almost as if they were designed with it in some cases (case in point Falcon). The funny thing is that they most likely were designed with it, because it was present in the EforAll demo before brawl came out (as well as dash dancing, hitstun, and a new form of l-cnaceling)

I'm just saying that buffing the moves we're already used to because we've seen good players capitalize on them isn't going to make characters top tier/balanced. Good players will probably find ways to make those characters viable, but I thought we wanted more than just that. Tier lists will become more defined as people learn to stay away from the situations that low tiers capitalize on. Giving a character more options is better than just buffing one amazing move(Unless that move is already pretty versatile like combo'ing projectiles).

Bad moves don't justify buffing, but bad characters do.

 

[Shell]

Okay, fair enough. I'm working on my ZSS. Thank you for correcting me.

Regarding my suggestions: I understand the slippery slope problem, I just truly think Lucas needs it. I won't be responding to anyone else that either doesn't play as Lucas or hasn't actually tried the tweaks.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I completely agree about not arbitrarily reducing lag on cool down. Also, the reason no one has been saying anything about Lucas is more likely related to the fact that no one plays him. He's "playable," but even a half an hour of playing both Ness and Lucas in Brawl+ should show you that one is a much more potent character. Ness got a whole new game. Lucas plays pretty similarly to vBrawl. Most of his arials had little lag to begin with, or could be auto-canceled. He gains few real combos, and faster movement/gameplay means you're even less likely to land that U-smash / grab.

Now that I see your reasoning, I'm more inclined to agree with the changes. I probably could have come to the same conclusion myself, I'm just stressing that we make public the reasoning behind our changes. Considering 3.3 isn't even out yet, it's understandable that no reasons were listed, but since the Lucas stuff in particular was released here, I just wanted some insight.

 

[Shell]

Ah, I guess I should have stated that earlier.

Also, I just want to stress that the changes are not related to 3.3 or official in any way. I'm just experimenting.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Bad moves don't justify buffing, but bad characters do.

You know....that's exactly what I said.

Is Wario a bad character? Does he need a buff to be a competitively viable character?

NO!!!

Therefore, no matter how bad his d-smash is, it should not be buffed on the basis that we don't buff characters that are already usable.

Is ZSS a bad character? NO!!! So we don't buff her grab on the basis that we don't buff charaters that are already usable.

That is what I've been addressing this entire time.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I'd say Lucas's grab move is one that seriously degrades him as a character.

It comes out slowly, has enormous cooldown, and doesn't have very much range to make up for these flaws. Is the lag justified? It destroys his options when someone is shielded and forces him to be a defensive, campy character.

Complaints about his grab and up tilt have been made, though not previously on this topic. You can find them on the Lucas topic in the Brawl+ Brigade forums. Just because he's not as popular a character as Falcon doesn't mean he should be ignored.

Ness was better than Lucas in VBrawl, in Brawl+ there is little comparison between them. Lucas's terrible grab is one of the obvious reasons. His Up Tilt is also pretty useless. These simple modifications could dramatically improve his game, make him a viable character, while still playing on his strengths.

Alright, I've got my Wii and am trying the Lucas mods now.

 

[JonBeBonanza]

So does anyone HAVE their own mp3 files on their wii for brawl background music?

 

[CyberGlitch]

That is not possible without burning a modified version of Brawl, as has already been mentioned.

This doesn't apply to Brawl+ either.

Oh, and Brawl has one of the finest soundtracks I've ever put my ears to, is it really that necessary to modify it when you can use your own stereo to play custom music?

 

[kupo15]

It would be an easy fix


Wow I honestly don't know what to say. Thanks for that. I kinda wish I knew what the exploitative was....or maybe I don't??? I'm glad you think we are in the right direction. Its nice to know we are doing things right

If we can get handicap buffering, I think everyone will be happy.

don't have to say anything just make sure things keep getting better. Like Techs and stuff. I miss the melee meteor cancels but they just won't work right in Brawl+ but we got is good.
I never thought I would but I actually enjoy playing with characters that I use to not even glance at. DK, Sonic, Captain Falcon, Gannon etc... Now I don't even use the favorite characters that much...btw is it just me or does MK suck?

You care about my feeling?

Now you know how we all felt from day one haha! So I guess we are good now? Truce!

I second Finn's opinion. I have been thinking that way for a while, and I know that Brawl isn't necessarily balanced as in the characters have equal potential, but there is a balance to how the game plays, and so far, we have been very careful not to break it. Like with the air dodging, I think the momentum of VBrawl is too important for the overall feel of the game.

AD momentum cancel is really easy to do. I am actually going to find the code that has it and compare it to the code that didn't.

The funny thing is that they most likely were designed with it, because it was present in the EforAll demo before brawl came out (as well as dash dancing, hitstun, and a new form of l-cnaceling)

Are you serious? Momentum, dash dancing, hitstun was all in the Eforall demo? Wow. Did sonic have momentum? Don't bull**** me
You know what the greatest easter egg of all times would be? Sakurai's intended playbook on this game with hitstun frame data and things like that.

 

[JonBeBonanza]

Oc remixes of these are too good, as are the original soundtracks.

Yeah and it seemed to me that this thread was more about Brawl+ than actual wii homebrew hacks. Too lazy to find sorry about that, but you wouldn't know the thread that gives you like a step by step would you? [of hacking brawl and whatever].

 

[Rikana]

I have a suggestion about the buffer system. I don't know if it's possible but why not use one of the menus we already have and change the purpose of it? As in - replace the function of it for the choice of which buffer system we want.

For example.. it was that one option hardly anyone ever touched. I forgot what it was called, but it has something to do with damage ratio to knockback and its default is 100%. It can be changed from 50% to 200% or something? We can let people decide what buffer they want to play on this way.

100% = buffer 0
101% = buffer 1
102% = buffer 2

etc.. Does anyone get what I'm saying..? lol.

Edit: I found it, its called "Damage Ratio" It's not in percent, but we can use that function to make it a handicapped buffer system for those who want to play a different buffer.

 

[CyberGlitch]

That's exactly what the handicap setting idea would do.

 

[Rikana]

That's exactly what the handicap setting idea would do.

I'm saying we should replace the damage ratio option with buffer option instead.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Handicap makes more sense as it provides each player the opportunity to change their buffer, instead of having a global setting.

 

[PanzerOceania]

then everyone has to play by the same buffer, kupo's idea to use the handicap makes more sense if it's possible.

My only wonder is would there be any desync on online games?

 

[CloneHat]

I think teching needs to have a bigger window. It's too hard to tech non-tumbling hits.

 

[Shell]

The coders are working on it. It's a difficult code though because Brawl handles teching based on distance from the ground instead of a time window, meaning we basically need to hack in a new mechanic.

 

[kupo15]

Well as much as I would like to take credit for the idea, it wasn't mine. Someone I don't know who said it and I remembered it and restated it. I'm pretty sure the handicap function will work seeing how you can have port 1 gravity different than p2. I think this would be ideal because if god forbid I play against goodoldganon, I would like my 1 buffer and he would like his 10 buffer. (no offense, it was just a joke )

It most likely would desync

 

[Blank Mauser]

Playing online without buffer is murder anyways.

 

[Finns7]

Kupo it should be added asap ( momentum cancel). We dont want exploits, I say add it in 3.3 and how our we going to get more code space without gecko, is igglys project gonna work.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well as much as I would like to take credit for the idea, it wasn't mine. Someone I don't know who said it and I remembered it and restated it. I'm pretty sure the handicap function will work seeing how you can have port 1 gravity different than p2. I think this would be ideal because if god forbid I play against goodoldganon, I would like my 1 buffer and he would like his 10 buffer. (no offense, it was just a joke )

It most likely would desync

Godforbid I whoop your butt is what you meant to say.

It would be a pimp code for the lame-Os like us that do 10 but if it can't work out my full support is for 2.

Either way, do we have any information on the next beta/gold code set? I'm traveling this weekend and want to know if we'll be using a new codeset. Also, what about that updated momentum code? v3 is great but it could be a little better.

 

[Finns7]

I heard on friday................667 post

 

[Archangel]

I think teching needs to have a bigger window. It's too hard to tech non-tumbling hits.

I second that.

 

[storm92]

I second that.

We've only been asking/working on that for like the last few months
Shell explained why it's harder to do than we thought a few posts up.