The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Vex Kasrani]

What is the current hitstun in the currently being tested 3.3? I think the hitstun from 3.2 is perfect honestly.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I think Lucas's Up Smash is fine as is.

It has a huge hitbox and insane knockback. It can hit when well placed and timed, and should be easily punishable since it kills so well (the move is comparable with a Falcon punch, but easier to hit with, seriously).

Yes, in matches with others they might miss more than they hit but that's because people tend to spam the move hoping to get a quick kill or to keep you defensive (this is further encouraged by no stale moves).

I'm willing to try it in the 3.3 set, that's only fair, but please be willing to remove it if judged overpowered.


The Up Tilt and grab modifications sound great though. Perhaps other tether grabs should get a similar, but reduced, treatment (given they have longer range).

 

[Shell]

Nah, Falcon punch kills much, much lower than u-smash, which dependent on the foe will kill around 105-110%.

But thank you for agreeing to try it.

Edit: Also, as for being easy to hit with, there's a reason vBrawl Lucas "highlight" videos featured lone cuts of the U-smash landing. Didn't happen too often. Still doesn't. But like I said, this doesn't change the wind-up, just the cool down. So you're no more likely to land it, you just won't be guaranteed to eat a DC'd charged fsmash if you miss.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Really? I seem to remember 70% deaths from his Up Smash. Granted, the punch ***** people at lower percents than that, but my point is that the moves have comparable function. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

Does the 60%/50% hitlag fix Lucas's Down Smash problems? (I don't have my Wii at the moment to test this).

 

[Shell]

Yes, the d-smash is fixed. As for the U-smash, I see what you're saying, but just give it some testing and let me know.

 

[kupo15]

What is the current hitstun in the currently being tested 3.3? I think the hitstun from 3.2 is perfect honestly.

It was at .485 and is now at .484. I think the tumble code might make more sense with this adjustment when we get to try it out.


I think 40 frames less for the usmash is pretty ridiculous but I don't see why one would change it. You shouldn't start combos with it and can combo into it.

 

[Shell]

Start combos with it? ...wut? Even with half the cooldown this isn't possible.

Also, you can't combo into it at kill percents, from what I've found. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

 

[shanus]

I'm going to be testing the grab & utilt changes. I dont know about usmash change though...

 

[CyberGlitch]

It's easy to say a hitstun value feels right. Slight changes are welcome things to try. Are there any specific combos this change intends to thwart?

Asylum, why freeze Lylat? So you can have another three platform level which still has uneven ground but looses its uniqueness and beauty? I'm all for freezing levels, even more levels than in the plussery (Pictochat and Pirate Ship), but this one has no annoying level kills.


Also, I think the tumble animation should be doubled in speed, not because it'd do anything be because it'd be hilarious.

 

[Shell]

I'm going to be using the grab & utilt changes. I dont know about usmash change though...

Thanks. I'd like to stress that the values I put in are just starting points. I tried 1.5x speed for the grab and SMK thought it was a little too fast, so I bumped it down to 1.3x. (You should try the U-smash code, though, if only to confirm that it breaks Lucas).

Edit: And if I moved this discussion to the Lucas thread in our forums, would anyone actually go there and respond?

 

[shanus]

Thanks. I'd like to stress that the values I put in are just starting points. I tried 1.5x speed for the grab and SMK thought it was a little too fast, so I bumped it down to 1.3x. (You should try the U-smash code, though, if only to confirm that it breaks Lucas).

Edit: And if I moved this discussion to the Lucas thread in our forums, would anyone actually go there and respond?

Its more along the lines of it'd probably not break him, but I dont know how much its worth it either. We still want more codes in, and the last thing i want to do is instate a char specific and have to remove it later due to line limit.

 

[Shell]

Fair enough. Thanks for your consideration. Keep me posted on your utilt / grab findings.

 

[shanus]

Fair enough. Thanks for your consideration. Keep me posted on your utilt / grab findings.

I'm not saying no, don't worry , just explaining the hesitancy. I feel itd open a whole bag of worms if I buffed a character and then had to remove it later haha

 

[CyberGlitch]

Removing buffs shouldn't be a concern until Brawl goes gold.

You could have used the can of worm arguments when Link's aerials were changed from 25% lag to 35%. Brawl+ is currently rapidly developing and very experimental.

Feel free to create a Lucas Brawl+ topic on the Lucas boards, and link to it here, but I have a feeling most of the deliberation over his character changes have been thoroughly made, at least until we get to try them ourselves. (About how soon should we expect to get this opportunity?)

 

[shanus]

Removing buffs shouldn't be a concern until Brawl goes gold.

You could have used the can of worm arguments when Link's aerials were changed from 25% lag to 35%. Brawl+ is currently rapidly developing and very experimental.

Feel free to create a Lucas Brawl+ topic on the Lucas boards, and link to it here, but I have a feeling most of the deliberation over his character changes have been thoroughly made, at least until we get to try them ourselves. (About how soon should we expect to get this opportunity?)

Probably will have Beta3.3 by Friday. Not really sure though lol

 

[Shell]

@CyberGlitch: I posted the tweaks on the previous page. You're free to try them at any time.

 

[kupo15]

Start combos with it? ...wut? Even with half the cooldown this isn't possible.

Also, you can't combo into it at kill percents, from what I've found. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

Shouldn't. Sorry, typo

 

[CyberGlitch]

How do I figure out which animations to modify? Could you just post the frame mod lines here? I know how to mod the byte count. (I won't be able to actually test it until I have access to my Wii, on Monday).

 

[Vex Kasrani]

It's easy to say a hitstun value feels right. Slight changes are welcome things to try. Are there any specific combos this change intends to thwart?
.

Slight changes in hitstun can possibly kill Lucario's combo's and I already have to hit somebody like 6 times to give them 40%

 

[Shell]

@ Kupo - even with my tweak you can't combo into or out of the u-smash at killing percents.

@CyberGlitch - just add the three lines to frame speed modifier section. Then, count the number of lines in this section after the first line and multiply that by 8. Then convert this result to 0x16 hex (http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver17.htm#b10tob16) and plug that number into the top line at XX:

Frame speed modifier example
065A9400 000000XX
....
....
....
Add code anywhere here.

PM me if you need extra help.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I got it figured out now, thanks.

How do you guys feel about Wario? Plenty of the Brawl+ mods have benefited him much less than most other characters. I don't think he's terrible in Brawl+ by any means, but for the case of making him a viable character there are a few mods that can be made.

Allowing him to fastfall Bite would certainly help him. This should be allowed by the code Kupo has been advocating (allowing noncharging special moves to be fastfalled). His down smash should also be considered. It was easy enough to punish before, even when it hit, but with the faster speed of all characters it's even more risky.

Wario isn't a clear cut bad character, but if a few simple mods make him equal to the other top contenders they should be considered.

 

[Shell]

...wut?

Wario's great. More than just "viable" and certainly not even close to a clear cut bad character. Good combos, good killers, good recovery, crazy mindgames, and an arial grab. I don't think you'll find many people who think he should be buffed just yet.


(Are you serious or are you trying to mock my Lucas example? o_O)

 

[kupo15]

what? Wario doesn't need to be touched and his bite would not be included I don't think. Its not a projectile and its kinda like a charging move since you hold B. Idk about that one

I can't believe wario was mentioned

 

[ph00tbag]

if you enter a move while you are doing another move, the input shouldn't register. you want the game to punish you for inputting something "wrong" when it should not even react to your inputs in the first place. this is in no way comparable to punishing players for sloppy inputs (inputting things when they are not supposed to).

Low buffer makes the input system more precise and does not encourage sloppy play. Brawl can punish you for doing something right, but then ending up in the wrong position to do that by the time the action can be used (the classic example being a Nair suicide when trying to shieldgrab). that input shouldn't have been read at all, which would be the punishment for doing it wrong. instead the sloppy buffer window can screw you over.

yes, both systems punish one thing and encourage another. but one makes players know their proper timings and be more precise, and one facilitates sloppy play and can potentially screw you over when it shouldn't. take your pick.

You're begging the question, here. You're setting up your own definition of sloppy play and using that to say the game encourages sloppy play, then you cite an example of non-sloppy play and try to show that the game discourages it.

You don't define sloppy play. Disabuse yourself of this notion. Sloppy play is defined by what causes ill-effects in game. Therefore, buffering the inputs you want is smart in Brawl, and ensures efficient play, but attempting to shield grab regardless of where you are on the stage is dumb. Why is it dumb? Because the game engine might punish you for it in precisely the way you described. Because of the way the game is designed, if I attempt to shield grab against Olimar's Fsmash while I'm near the ledge, then I'm playing badly. No johns.

Again, this gets us no closer to the core problem, which is that there's no real direction to Brawl+ that I'm aware of. Maybe someone could point me to something, but I've yet to find anything specific.

 

[Shell]

Using the newer one line buffer at 2 frames SMK and I noticed a couple of buffer-related suicides / mistakes in our two hours of smashing, but otherwise it felt pretty good to me. A decent compromise.

 

[CyberGlitch]

No! I'm just throwing out ideas, specifically dealing with characters who have long cooldown moves.

Another character that is good, but might use reduction of lags after smash is Jiggs. It already takes her a long time to get her low range smash moves out, but even then he's left very open to get hit (I refer to forward and down smash).
Again, this is a character that could be argued as very good, but could benefit from a few slight adjustments. Jiggs in particular seems to need more reliable killing options, her wicked edge guarding isn't effective against all characters. Even in Melee, where her edgeguarding was ever better, and her sleep attack was much more powerful, she depended on her smash moves. The same can be said for Smash 64.

 

[kupo15]

jiggs only needs a buffed rest for killing.

Phoot. A better code could be replacing the handicap function with buffer so you can adjust it to what you want and I can adjust it to mine. Idk if the wii will explode but its worth a try

 

[CyberGlitch]

My suggestion assumes that there will be no rest buff.

I don't have much faith on a working knockback modifier code being made, or for there to be enough lines of code for it once it is made.

Jiggs could use proper kill options, just like Samus.

 

[kupo15]

I'm not a fan of arbitrarily speeding up random ending lag on moves.

 

[Shell]

With the mixed signals about Jiggz, I would wait for tourney results or at least a little more testing.

(If you feel really strongly about it, you could always make some tweaks yourself, test them, and then get other people to give you feedback as I have Lucas.)

 

[Dark Sonic]

You guys know that it's okay for characters to have bad moves right?

I mean, just looking at my main, Sonic has 2 pretty much useless attacks (they are very situational and there are often better options even in those situations). Nair and Homing attack. Neither are safe when blocked or whiffed, neither have good knockback, homming attack has ridiculous start up lag and ending lag (both when hit and when whiffed, and an extra long landing animation gets tacked on if you land on a platform.), nair's knockback after the first few frames is pathetic, ect. They are bad moves. But Sonic is still a good character despite these moves being bad...because he has other moves that are good.

You don't have to use every move a character has, and as a result it's not important that every move be useable.

Food for thought.

 

[CyberGlitch]

While I'd admit that my Wario suggestions negate your suggestion, dark Sonic, the Jiggs one isn't just an arbitrary one. It's ok for characters to have useless moves (Falcon Punch anyone?), but Jiggs might need more reliable killing options. The lag reduction would directly address this problem and would amplify her strengths by allowing her to more easily follow up smash moves with a WOP.

Keep in mind that Jiggs depends on very capable offensive capabilities because she's such a light character, meaning early deaths for herself.

I'd like to test this out. SheLL, any advice on how to figure out the ID values for the animations?

 

[kupo15]

I'm confident a kb code is possible. Almas made a beta version of it that you can check in the other code agenda thread

 

[goodoldganon]

You guys know that it's okay for characters to have bad moves right?

I mean, just looking at my main, Sonic has 2 pretty much useless attacks (they are very situational and there are often better options even in those situations). Nair and Homing attack. Neither are safe when blocked or whiffed, neither have good knockback, homming attack has ridiculous start up lag and ending lag (both when hit and when whiffed, and an extra long landing animation gets tacked on if you land on a platform.), nair's knockback after the first few frames is pathetic, ect. They are bad moves. But Sonic is still a good character despite these moves being bad...because he has other moves that are good.

You don't have to use every move a character has, and as a result it's not important that every move be useable.

Food for thought.

Thank the lord someone else said it and phrased it so well.

Also, I don't agree with the negative attitude Phoot is giving about B+'s direction, but he/she is bringing up very valid points. The buffer system isn't broken in vBrawl, so I don't understand the desire to take it down. As Phoot has said, it can be argued both ways. For example Kupo, you said you felt like the 10 frame buffer makes you have to fight the game controls more then your opponent and I feel the same way about the new buffer systems.

And please, don't spout that 'Learn the character timings' or 'encourages sloppy play' BS because I find it a little rude. I know the timings of my character and his moves on both the 10 and 2 frame buffer, but it doesn't make it any less annoying. Basically it comes down to preference in playstyle. I like to always be acting 1 step ahead of things so the 10 buffer suits me well. I'm putting in my next attack as I'm finishing one. Sure, I can get punished for being so offensive but whatever, it's my style of play.

Personally, if we can make the handicap system effect the buffer the that will be just dandy. Everyone wins. If not then I'll stick with 10 on my set.

 

[Finns7]

Guys Guys, now its late and im completly fatigued, i prob will explain later but honestly, i mean honestly how do YOU feel about the momentum, sure it feels good but is it worth it????????Brawls dodge is 2 good with momentum, if ur up a stock u can just dash and jump and not get punished, hell ad into something is the best approach, we dont wanna homogenizer things do we? Im not feeling that code honestly brawls system didnt break the game..........now before you flame me entirley, let me say this, I understand this game, i understand the v3 momentum, i can control it, and I actually like it.

I develouped techs with it and adjusted to it from brawls........But i see a problem with the code, its not natural and doesnt fit brawl....it works in instances but its not right, the char size codes main purpose was prob for this in some ways brawls stages arnt large enough to do you kno who's combos across the stage. If we give ad landing lag projectiles will be over 9000 and spam and camping will ravage every option. The momentum code has mad (mad as in ad not slang) (it does, really dont lie) flaws if you look closely at it and exploit it, you may say peoples wont exploit this but I dont agree, exploitation is the only option in smash games and irl.

Ok you put a dog in a corner, a wounded dog and threaten its life then they will do everything in there power to ravage amd besmirch u back. We kinda knew momentum ad was good, but no one seems to talk of it. As soon as tournys start its gonna be dash>jump>_____________________Spamus (<char)___(you at the end of ur ad dsmashin them, this **** is spammable 2 so ya im not for momentum atm. This is just a drunken post, but when i come back i want someone to discuss how they feel about this.

 

[goodoldganon]

Drunken or not it's a very valid post. I believe we want AD to stop momentum for just this reason.

That was your main argument right? Anything else I missed?

 

[Archangel]

I have to disagree with Finns. I must say when I last left here I was feeling Brawl+ but only because of Muba's codeset. With the update and new codes I actually like the game. Not just playing around with it but I genuinely like playing the game. My Brawl got ****ED as a result I was unable to play for like 2 weeks but the game has made DRASTIC!!!!!! Improvements. I feel the need to apologize to you specifically Kupo. Being honest I though you where some ******** shaping the game for his own benefit but I was wrong, you know what your doing. I'd say the game is Nearing perfect IMO. Still some improvements can be made here and there but If the project was suddenly shut down today I'd be satisfied with it.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Kupo, I'm fully aware of the beta, but the code does not work properly (for our needs at least), and the issues with the code would seem difficult to alleviate (shared hitboxes, moves from several characters affected by a single change, multiple moves of one character being affected by a single change).

The code line limit is again an issue with Gecko OS 2.0 on hiatus. We have room for the knockback code, but a kb code, tech code, and a fixed meteor cancels code?

I think we need plan B modifications kept in mind.

Keep in mind that Jiggs down and side smash moves are not easy to hit with, with their very low range and slow startup time. She's also the slowest runner in the game, making approaches with these smashs unconventional. A reduction of lag to the end of these attacks is not just arbitrary, it'd be an adjustment that compliments Jiggs playstyle, bringing out the best in him while not making him overpowered.

Again, this is just a guess on my part, and I'd love to test it out. With you guys giving me a hint of direction I'll figure out how to do the mods and actually do so.

EDIT: Oh, that's the code you were referring to. I suppose it has potential.


As for the buffer, 2 buffer (3 frame input window) feels just right to me. Most things are easy enough to not be a chore, but the game in no way feels sloppy.


I'm loving the Momentum V3 code. It still needs a few tweaks, but I really don't think there's turning back from it. It makes the game more fluid, while complimenting each character's play styles by coincidence (though it could be argued that some of the new characters' play styles could benefit from it, those that don't receive momentum from the code, like ZSS). I hope a V4 code will address your strongest complaint.

The small stages is just a problem in general. Momentum might make this slightly more apparent, but the stages have been an issue long before it.

I think we should get a side project going for Brawl+, a Brawl+ Stage-pack. It'd include the custom stages that cater to competitive play (neutral, large enough for a ground game, etc). It'd also eliminate the arguable need to freeze pictochat.

I can create the topic on the Brawl Stage Discussion board if you guys would like (I'm mainly looking for Kupo's acknowledgment). I'd post guidelines on what we are looking for, what to avoid (ladders, springs, perhaps walls) and a few other tidbits to standardize submission. I'd of course have you guys look over what I'd intend to post before I start the topic.

You guys game?

 

[kupo15]

Drunken or not it's a very valid post. I believe we want AD to stop momentum for just this reason.

That was your main argument right? Anything else I missed?

It would be an easy fix

I have to disagree with Finns. I must say when I last left here I was feeling Brawl+ but only because of Muba's codeset. With the update and new codes I actually like the game. Not just playing around with it but I genuinely like playing the game. My Brawl got ****ED as a result I was unable to play for like 2 weeks but the game has made DRASTIC!!!!!! Improvements. I feel the need to apologize to you specifically Kupo. Being honest I though you where some ******** shaping the game for his own benefit but I was wrong, you know what your doing. I'd say the game is Nearing perfect IMO. Still some improvements can be made here and there but If the project was suddenly shut down today I'd be satisfied with it.

Wow I honestly don't know what to say. Thanks for that. I kinda wish I knew what the exploitative was....or maybe I don't??? I'm glad you think we are in the right direction. Its nice to know we are doing things right

If we can get handicap buffering, I think everyone will be happy.


When I said other code agenda I meant this one http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6762575&postcount=80

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm so glad none of the nubs are in the B+broom or we'd have a massive buffer >_>

I'm so glad we have so many godly pros in the B+ BRoom. Otherwise we'd be making unnecessary changes and johning about Brawl's buffer system because we can't get used to it. Besides that, everyone would be totally hard to relate to. I mean how can you relate to nubs? They suck so much they and know anything about competitive play. They just come here to complain, ****ing scrubs.

Ph00tbag, the direction of Brawl+ is wherever these guys want to take it.

Considering the buffer based on player, I'd say it'd be a cool code. That is all.

You guys know that it's okay for characters to have bad moves right?

I mean, just looking at my main, Sonic has 2 pretty much useless attacks (they are very situational and there are often better options even in those situations). Nair and Homing attack. Neither are safe when blocked or whiffed, neither have good knockback, homming attack has ridiculous start up lag and ending lag (both when hit and when whiffed, and an extra long landing animation gets tacked on if you land on a platform.), nair's knockback after the first few frames is pathetic, ect. They are bad moves. But Sonic is still a good character despite these moves being bad...because he has other moves that are good.

You don't have to use every move a character has, and as a result it's not important that every move be useable.

Food for thought.

Considering you already know my stance on Sonic, I'll just pitch in.

As much as its okay to make it so characters can capitalize better on a certain option, the reason characters are top tier is because they have good options for almost every situation. We don't have to buff every move, but just making small changes to buff moves you've seen good players use in situations you already know about isn't the best way to actually balance the game. Any good player can capitalize well on something.

I personally think versatility outweighs bigger rewards. Its not making every character play the same, its making awkward options more viable.

Sonic needs more killing options btw.