The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Archangel]

We've only been asking/working on that for like the last few months
Shell explained why it's harder to do than we thought a few posts up.

I understand that. I was just letting the new guy know he's not alone is all. It can take as long as it needs. I just can't wait. Imagine....ledge teching in Brawl?

 

[Eaode]

that would require some more complex work. For ledgeteching to work, you need to be able to SDI (the immediate DI when you "teleport" during hitlag) into a wall collision. This was possible in 64 and Melee (and in melee you can tech walls), but they took it out in Brawl.

Case in point: Ledgeteching porbably won't happen unless they feel like making a code specifically for it and it's deemed necessary.


To be completely honest I would love edgeteching to be put in, it's one of my FAVORITE techniques from melee. It's so satisfying to be able to survive such a hard hit thanks to good DI and reaction time.

 

[peachfvl]

some pages ago i asked if the dashspeed was increased and some ppl said it was the same since beta 1 but i feel the game pace is slower than before so can you clarify this plz?

 

[ph00tbag]

I like the handicap buffer idea. It's a suitable compromise, and if it can be implemented, I'd support it.

Ph00tbag, the direction of Brawl+ is wherever these guys want to take it.

I'd be ecstatic if this ideal were actually possible, but I feel like mostly this is a tug-of-war between any number of factions stretching in all directions. The inevitable end to such an action is not pretty. Something made by the community like this shouldn't have its direction decided as it goes along, otherwise it'll be distorted by several different interests. I'm not so much concerned that the direction people want to take is different from the one that I would prefer, but that the direction seems so haphazard, and there's no real yard stick to assess any given code by, making any debate about any given code go in circles forever, and things get done a lot slower.

 

[Shell]

There's a little less gravity in general in the Beta 3's than the beta 2, so it may feel ever so slightly floatier (and thus, maybe slower).

However, move speed, jump speed, landing lag etc. are all the same, and have been the same since beta 1.

Edit: ph00tbag: I don't know if you were around before the BR was created, but things are going much faster now. I wouldn't worry about direction.

 

[shadowtroop]

How about wifi waitin room and results (pitch black walk-off) as selectable stages? We could use the custom stage select screen.

 

[shanus]

I like the handicap buffer idea. It's a suitable compromise, and if it can be implemented, I'd support it.


I'd be ecstatic if this ideal were actually possible, but I feel like mostly this is a tug-of-war between any number of factions stretching in all directions. The inevitable end to such an action is not pretty. Something made by the community like this shouldn't have its direction decided as it goes along, otherwise it'll be distorted by several different interests. I'm not so much concerned that the direction people want to take is different from the one that I would prefer, but that the direction seems so haphazard, and there's no real yard stick to assess any given code by, making any debate about any given code go in circles forever, and things get done a lot slower.

We follow a system in the back room now. We have a well–defined list of what codes we NEED to have made to achieve the optimal results. We also have character specific threads which require X number of votes to achieve a change. We also actively listen to the community to determine how their voice coincides with ours to make the best game as possible. I understand your worry, but trust me, we have a direction, and we are almost there.

 

[ph00tbag]

We follow a system in the back room now. We have a well–defined list of what codes we NEED to have made to achieve the optimal results. We also have character specific threads which require X number of votes to achieve a change. We also actively listen to the community to determine how their voice coincides with ours to make the best game as possible. I understand your worry, but trust me, we have a direction, and we are almost there.

Can the direction be defined for the rest of us? If nothing else, it would help me to form my own opinions on the codes, and how they relate to it.

 

[shanus]

I'm going to be writing kind of quickly (bunch of work I need to get done), so please don't nitpick anything I say too much as this will be more colloquial than professional.

Our true direction for the Brawl+ Plussery set follows a fairly specific protocol. As you may or may not know, I'm trained as a chemist and prefer to lay out a framework and make changes given distinct reason/proof. As such, we wanted to start with the basics, the characters and work our way up. We wanted each character to be fun & beyond playable (i.e. tournament viable). Given that goal, we analyzed what each character could benefit from and optimized their physics accordingly.

However, this change alone could not let us realize our goals. There are a lot of intrinsic flaws within Brawl and our goal was to make this game as competitive and fun as possible. We wanted to make both offense and defense a viable strategy which would require delicate manipulations of character specific approaches, ALRs & shield stuns. We didn't make these changes without a basis though, we thankfully had the metagames of vBrawl, Melee, & 64 to base off of. We tried to examine the key features of each game to maximize its competitive effect.

So where has this endless rambling brought us to? Well our current progress I'd say so far is pretty spiffy. While we don't have extensive tournament results, our changes definitely feel as if the tier list has narrowed dramatically. Game limiting factors such as planking, an unstoppable MK, jablocks, tripping, and more have been removed. But we aren't there yet.

We need to fix momentum to equally benefit all characters. Furthermore, the window for teching is intrinsically difficult at lower buffer and must be fixed accordingly. And finally, some knockback on some moves needs to be altered (i.e. pikachu downthrow chaingrab, sheik ftilt lock, MK initial shuttle loop). This is more of the fine tuning stage of our direction. We want to maximize each characters competitive nature and remove anything truly broken. We also want to keep combos within the game, but not brokenly good. We want to encourage offense and defense at a neutral level so its purely the skill/indgames of the player and not the character. It's a big vision, and I think we are almost there.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm going to be writing kind of quickly (bunch of work I need to get done), so please don't nitpick anything I say too much as this will be more colloquial than professional.

Our true direction for the Brawl+ Plussery set follows a fairly specific protocol. As you may or may not know, I'm trained as a chemist and prefer to lay out a framework and make changes given distinct reason/proof. As such, we wanted to start with the basics, the characters and work our way up. We wanted each character to be fun & beyond playable (i.e. tournament viable). Given that goal, we analyzed what each character could benefit from and optimized their physics accordingly.

However, this change alone could not let us realize our goals. There are a lot of intrinsic flaws within Brawl and our goal was to make this game as competitive and fun as possible. We wanted to make both offense and defense a viable strategy which would require delicate manipulations of character specific approaches, ALRs & shield stuns. We didn't make these changes without a basis though, we thankfully had the metagames of vBrawl, Melee, & 64 to base off of. We tried to examine the key features of each game to maximize its competitive effect.

So where has this endless rambling brought us to? Well our current progress I'd say so far is pretty spiffy. While we don't have extensive tournament results, our changes definitely feel as if the tier list has narrowed dramatically. Game limiting factors such as planking, an unstoppable MK, jablocks, tripping, and more have been removed. But we aren't there yet.

We need to fix momentum to equally benefit all characters. Furthermore, the window for teching is intrinsically difficult at lower buffer and must be fixed accordingly. And finally, some knockback on some moves needs to be altered (i.e. pikachu downthrow chaingrab, sheik ftilt lock, MK initial shuttle loop). This is more of the fine tuning stage of our direction. We want to maximize each characters competitive nature and remove anything truly broken. We also want to keep combos within the game, but not brokenly good. We want to encourage offense and defense at a neutral level so its purely the skill/indgames of the player and not the character. It's a big vision, and I think we are almost there.

You misspelled mindgames. I can't trust your judgment anymore.

 

[lamelikemike]

You misspelled mindgames. I can't trust your judgment anymore.

lawl+


I like where B+ is going.

 

[Ulevo]

I currently do not have the time to specifically explain the why, but... does anyone else notice how Meta Knight has become significantly better than he was, as well as significantly better than the rest of the cast as a result of the changes in mechanics? I adamantly believe Meta Knight is not broken in vBrawl, and even I think Meta Knight now is pushing it quite far.

 

[Shell]

He now dies at earlier percents, his d-smash has more lag and his tornado can't rise as much. Additionally, they're working on a code to reduce the initial KB of the shuttle loop.

Your concerns are well founded, but we're on top of it.

 

[Ulevo]

He now dies at earlier percents, his d-smash has more lag and his tornado can't rise as much. Additionally, they're working on a code to reduce the initial KB of the shuttle loop.

Your concerns are well founded, but we're on top of it.

His DSmash is better now. If you think the problem with his DSmash before was the beginning lag, that is completely false. It's the start up time (or lack thereof) that makes it a fantastic move. And it's even faster now.

Shuttle Loops knockback doesn't need to be decreased. His overall hit stun needs to be toned down.

Fair, FTilt, Dash Attack, FThrow, Uair, USmash, UTilt, Drill Rush all combo in to Shuttle Loop now, and DTilt sets up for all of this, which he can use at will. There really shouldn't be a reason why I can get 5+ hit combos without thinking about what I am doing. The hit stun is the problem, it's just Shuttle Loop is the kicker at the end of it, which I think is nice.

Also, Meta Knight has an equivalanet to Thunders Combo of Fox from Melee. DThrow to DTilt forces a get up much the way the Ice Block Lock for Ice Climbers does, and he can do this repeatedly. Infinitely, I am not sure, I'm assuming not. However, this too leads to Shuttle Loop kills.

Just decrease his absolutely fantastic ability to combo until higher percents or something.

 

[shanus]

The point is not to reduce his character flavor Ulevo, and it seems like you might be a bit new to the scene so I'm just gonna toss in my $.02.

We know his downsmash is fast and awesome, the end lag was to make it not spammable. If you whiff it, its meant to be punished. Thats kind of what we are aiming for here, let him still combo, tone down his kill moves (his initial knockback on shuttle loop is mammoth, it actually scales fairly awkwardly as well), and make him a very fragile combo oriented character. We don't want to change his flavor, but make him a fragile combo char with loads of options, but quite easy to kill when you connect. Oh did I mention he gets combo'd by a lot of characters now and his whorenado is worse?

His vertical KO survivability has him die off of FD 11% earlier from 113% to 102% as well. He is not as god tier as before and definitely plays brilliantly.

Also, I don't know if your playing with real people or not, but the main thing that I want to make clear is that we arent going to nerf MK to oblivion like some people want. We want to preserve his playstyle, and make him still play well, just not brokenly well.


If this continues to be a problem (esp. w/ tourney data, then we'll nerf him for sure.

 

[Ulevo]

The point is not to reduce his character flavor Ulevo, and it seems like you might be a bit new to the scene so I'm just gonna toss in my $.02.

We know his downsmash is fast and awesome, the end lag was to make it not spammable. If you whiff it, its meant to be punished. Thats kind of what we are aiming for here, let him still combo, tone down his kill moves (his initial knockback on shuttle loop is mammoth, it actually scales fairly awkwardly as well), and make him a very fragile combo oriented character. We don't want to change his flavor, but make him a fragile combo char with loads of options, but quite easy to kill when you connect. Oh did I mention he gets combo'd by a lot of characters now and his whorenado is worse?

His vertical KO survivability has him die off of FD 11% earlier from 113% to 102% as well. He is not as god tier as before and definitely plays brilliantly.

Also, I don't know if your playing with real people or not, but the main thing that I want to make clear is that we arent going to nerf MK to oblivion like some people want. We want to preserve his playstyle, and make him still play well, just not brokenly well.

First off, I took Brawl+ to a tournament on Saturday. I can positively say I play with real people on this. And on another note, it was perceived quite well by a few people.

Secondly, I have purposely and deliberately gone out of my way to ensure Meta Knight was not considered for a ban during the time of such discussion (within my own limits as a member on Smashboards of course). I do not believe in banning anything not deserving of that last resort, and I do not throw the tern "broken" around either.

I have no intention of telling you to nerf Meta Knight in to oblivion the way I am sure many people wish. I am advising you to tone down the dramatic increase in character potential Meta Knight has received. He is has been blessed more than any other character by the changes you've implemented, and by a rather drastic margin. The biggest concern is the amount of hit stun his moves have.

Melee had simplistic combos most of the time. Hits for combos rarely went past 3 to 4 unless they were extremely elaborate, and even then, they were usually due to prediction of player mistakes like tech chases after the initial combo. Meta Knight can do 4+ combos easily, and all of them lead to a Shuttle Loop. And the kicker to all of this is that setting these combos up is stupidly easy to do now that Meta Knight can Dash Cancel his DTilts. He just runs in, pokes your feet, and runs away if you didn't trip, then repeats the process.

And like I pointed out, Meta Knight has a jab reset out of the DThrow with DTilt. I am not sure exactly how extensive it is, but Niko K found it the first match he played Brawl+, and immediately proceeded to win with it. I am not suggesting we remove that until we know fully explore what it is it can do, I am just throwing it out there that he's in fact capable of this. And hell, it makes combos even easier.

I fully understand the intentions you have, and I agree with keeping the flavour of Meta Knight. I main the bloody character, and not because I "play to win". I love the glass cannon idea. I am just telling you that the nerfs you've given him are inconsequential in comparison to the increase in power he's received.

Edit: Also, the reason I suggest the overwhelming hit stun to be the main issue is that statistically Meta Knight is an amazing character, but I believe that with tweaks you can change any character in Brawl+ to be just as good. But if there is too much hit stun, it is irrelevant as to how good the opposing character is, because it all comes down to who's the fasest, and who can combo first. Meta Knight will win that war because of his speed to range ratio with his disjointed hit boxes.

I believe personally that if the stun on his moves were toned down so that he couldn't combo as much, and other characters were made better (rather than Meta Knight being made worse) it would help the situation drastically.

 

[kupo15]

how does he have a jab reset from a dthrow? DI away should solve that.

But Mookie suggested the hitstun thing before and I think that is a good idea. MK's attacks should deal no extra hitstun

 

[shanus]

Nice post Ulevo, definitely something worth considering. I guess if it pans out that way we cansee if we can nerf his individual hitstun or something :-O

However, I say we wait a bit longer before something as radical as that.

 

[Adapt]

I personally think that doing away with the flimsy armor code, and removing MK from the hitstun code somehow would go a long way to balancing things out. The extra ~10% required to kill him is not a big deal in many cases, especially with the comboing nature of brawl+

 

[leafgreen386]

The problem with the individual hitstun thing, is that hitstun applies against a character. Not toward them. In other words, if you were to exempt mk from the hitstun code, he would be taking normal brawl level hitstun, but his attacks would all deal brawl+ level hitstun. Which would be bad. We could increase his hitstun so that characters can combo him easier, essentially making a match with mk more like ssb64 than brawl+.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think Metaknight needs more knockback on his aerials so they go farther and more upwards. It'd still be possible to combo, but he wouldn't be gimping people off stage so easily. Shuttle loop is already being nerfed so thats good, and we could maybe make it so his Dtilt never trips?

 

[Ulevo]

The problem with the individual hitstun thing, is that hitstun applies against a character. Not toward them. In other words, if you were to exempt mk from the hitstun code, he would be taking normal brawl level hitstun, but his attacks would all deal brawl+ level hitstun. Which would be bad. We could increase his hitstun so that characters can combo him easier, essentially making a match with mk more like ssb64 than brawl+.

I would assume that would be the best alternative. Maybe make him lighter than he is. I'm not sure. It didn't really pan out for Fox in Melee. He dominated everyone outside of High Tier despite the fact that everyone could combo him to the hell and back.

Also. I wouldn't go so far to as to remove Meta Knights hit stun entirely. I believe he should be able to combo like every other character. It's just right now, it's a little ridiculous. I had a Meta Knight ditto with KingAce, and I easily took stocks off of him just because I was able to combo him from 0% into something ridiculous. Mind you, he likely didn't DI properly to attempt to get out of the combo, but regardless it wouldn't have been hard to follow his DI with Meta Knight.

I just believe that Meta Knight should be restricted to simplistic combos like FThrow to Shuttle Loop, and more elaborate ones that require precision and timing at higher percents. Not crazy auto combos of 4+ hits in any circumstance that lead to a fantastic kill move. That's too good for the type of character Meta Knight is.

 

[Wavedash Master]

The problem with the individual hitstun thing, is that hitstun applies against a character. Not toward them. In other words, if you were to exempt mk from the hitstun code, he would be taking normal brawl level hitstun, but his attacks would all deal brawl+ level hitstun. Which would be bad. We could increase his hitstun so that characters can combo him easier, essentially making a match with mk more like ssb64 than brawl+.

I think they were talking about the hitstun Meta Knights moves gave.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

what if he did less damage and his shuttle loop had less knockback?

 

[Almas]

The problem is that you can't really go about such a change.

As far as I am aware, hitstun doesn't take into regard who the enemy is. It merely looks at the launch speed you've been given and multiplies it by a constant value depending on the character being hit, then uses this to calculate a stun time in frames.

The only way to make it harder for MK to combo would be to universally slow down his attacks, or give them more base knockback but less knockback growth.

 

[Ulevo]

what if he did less damage and his shuttle loop had less knockback?

I personally like the way Shuttle Loop is now. I just don't like the idea that it's so easy to combo in to it, and the combos I use to get my opponent in to it do a lot of damage in the process because of how many times I can actually hit them in hit stun.

Less damage could be an option. Removing Meta Knights DTilt trip trait is removing the flavour of the character I find, but yeah, it's an option as well.

 

[Finns7]

Or we can look deeply into what makes meta so op. I dont think his dsmash is op nor do I think his shuttle is, its a great finisher. Now with the addition of no asl and even still in vb his speed mixed in with his air game are what makes him a **** party. The tornado nerf didnt do much, the move sets up **** combos very well and making it not go as high didnt do anything, its a great approach still with not that many ways of punishing it.

Since his nado is such a great approach it should have a nerf for balance. Is it possilbe to cut the moves length in half?

I dont think dsmash and nado are the problem, His speed and arieal game are what make him op, you guys are forgeting the dair aka the AIDs giving move

 

[Ulevo]

Or we can look deeply into what makes meta so op. I dont think his dsmash is op nor do I think his shuttle is, its a great finisher. Now with the addition of no asl and even still in vb his speed mixed in with his air game are what makes him a **** party. The tornado nerf didnt do much, the move sets up **** combos very well and making it not go as high didnt do anything, its a great approach still with not that many ways of punishing it.

Since his nado is such a great approach it should have a nerf for balance. Is it possilbe to cut the moves length in half?

I dont think dsmash and nado are the problem, His speed and arieal game are what make him op, you guys are forgeting the dair aka the AIDs giving move

Uh. His air speed is terrible (speed wise). His Tornado is not a good approach. It wasn't a good approach in vBrawl. It's a solid move in close quarters, but you won't be using it to close distances and **** someone, especially not with the nerf it's received (which I think was a great idea by the way).

What currently makes him **** is his ability to combo massively, and the tools he has to set up those massive combos (namely DTilt). If we could somehow reduce his ability to combo to a level on the equivalent with everyone else, it would be beneficial.

 

[shanus]

Uh. His air speed is terrible (speed wise). His Tornado is not a good approach. It wasn't a good approach in vBrawl. It's a solid move in close quarters, but you won't be using it to close distances and **** someone, especially not with the nerf it's received (which I think was a great idea by the way).

What currently makes him **** is his ability to combo massively, and the tools he has to set up those massive combos (namely DTilt). If we could somehow reduce his ability to combo to a level on the equivalent with everyone else, it would be beneficial.

What if we put more lag on a few moves? F-air maybe? ANything else?

 

[zxeon]

I don't think MK should get aerial momentum or ALR because once he has hitstun he doesn't need any more help from us.

 

[Ulevo]

What I think I'm going to do is I'll put my capture card to good use and make a little compilation of what Meta Knight can and can't do right now just so I have something constructive to work with, and then I'll further put in my recommendation for change. I'm thinking a simple change in knock back trajectory for one or two moves might solve this problem. It's just a few moves that are the problem, since they essentially ensure Meta Knight can keep combos going until he's in position for a Shuttle Loop KO. Also, reducing his running speed slightly may help as well. Right now though I'm sick and exhausted, and can't remember specifically the details of what Meta Knight can string together, so I'll wait until I get that video together.

 

[kupo15]

I agree that MK should not benefit from ALR in any way. How about removing the glide after the shuttle loop? Or is that too much of a change?

 

[Ulevo]

I agree that MK should not benefit from ALR in any way. How about removing the glide after the shuttle loop? Or is that too much of a change?

If feel that is too much of a change. Honestly, Meta Knight is perfect the way he is right now. All the changes made to him have been perfect from what I can tell. It's the benefits he's received from the general changes to the mechanics that have altered him and made him better. Every character benefited from the changes in some way or another, Meta Knight just happened to adapt better than everyone. So I think the solution is to try and reduce those same benefits that he's received, rather than risk losing flavour of his character by downgrading in other areas of his game play.

 

[shanus]

ALR will barely effect MK as his problem is his aerial juggling. I think adding lag to his fair might be the best change we can implement. Preserves dtilt poking to grabs, starts juggles, but has to choose to shuttle loop or fair exclusively.

Or when we get move specific knockback we give fair more knockback with a lower multiplier. That way it combos at higher % but not at lower.

 

[kupo15]

I think no alr would help also. You never know what new stuff MK can do with 1 frame aerial lag or w/e. It takes one line and I don't see the problem in using it

 

[Shell]

Can you add (or reduce) lag to individual arials? I was under the impression that you could only control the speed of all of a characters arials at once, as they are one action ID.

 

[Ulevo]

ALR will barely effect MK as his problem is his aerial juggling. I think adding lag to his fair might be the best change we can implement. Preserves dtilt poking to grabs, starts juggles, but has to choose to shuttle loop or fair exclusively.

Or when we get move specific knockback we give fair more knockback with a lower multiplier. That way it combos at higher % but not at lower.

I think that might be a good idea.

One culprit to his move set I notice to cause a lot of overly extensive combos is his Dash Attack. His Fair was alright from what I noticed, but then again I may have neglected it more during game play.

 

[Finns7]

Im saying his ground speed not air speed, and nado being a terrible approach depends on matchups. making it so it cant go up and down didnt nerf it.

 

[Ulevo]

Im saying his ground speed not air speed, and nado being a terrible approach depends on matchups. making it so it cant go up and down didnt nerf it.

Yes it did. You can always try to DI up and out of the Tornado in vBrawl, but what prevents this for working against a lot of characters is that Meta Knight can follow you upwards. In many instances, this eats your double jump too. This no longer happens. It does less damage as a result, and the user has to be more cautious when using it. It also can't be used as a safe recovery move as efficiently since if you use it below the stage line you'll die.

 

[Shell]

I look forward to your video, Ulevo -- Hope you feel better soon. I had the flu a couple weeks ago and 14 hours of sleep did the trick. You might consider the same if you can.