The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[SketchHurricane]

I believe his ability to get more powerful as his % gets higher needs a slight nerf, when at about 120% he can do combo's that give easily 60%

IMO we should avoid messing those certain features of a character that make them truly unique, and this is one such characteristic of Lucario. If there was a way to nerf something else instead to bring more of a balance, that would be preferable. Perhaps make him easier to KO so he spends less time in the danger zone? I don't know much about Lucario and his weight, so take that with a grain of salt, but you get the general idea of a workaround.

At any rate, you might prove to be completely right in that Lucario gets ridiculous combos in the red-zone. Is there a known formula to the damage increase? Your best be in selling this nerf would be to get some hard numbers for us to look at. For instance, a what a combo deals at 0% compared to a similar combo at 120%.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

IMO we should avoid messing those certain features of a character that make them truly unique, and this is one such characteristic of Lucario. If there was a way to nerf something else instead to bring more of a balance, that would be preferable. Perhaps make him easier to KO so he spends less time in the danger zone? I don't know much about Lucario and his weight, so take that with a grain of salt, but you get the general idea of a workaround.

At any rate, you might prove to be completely right in that Lucario gets ridiculous combos in the red-zone. Is there a known formula to the damage increase? Your best be in selling this nerf would be to get some hard numbers for us to look at. For instance, a what a combo deals at 0% compared to a similar combo at 120%.

I believe he should become slightly lighter, he is in general a decently heavy character.

his average combo's at 0% deal about 10-25% and his combo's around 120% deal around 30-60%

Ill actually start working on video's to upload, that arn't 3.1 which is what I think I uploaded in the set vs Xzax's sonic.

Also I would like to again say that I think Lucario needs a slightly shorter shorthop, he can no longer hit MK when hes standing with a shorthop fair, and with him jumping higher now he feels more sluggish.

 

[shanus]

I believe he should become slightly lighter, he is in general a decently heavy character.

his average combo's at 0% deal about 10-25% and his combo's around 120% deal around 30-60%

Ill actually start working on video's to upload, that arn't 3.1 which is what I think I uploaded in the set vs Xzax's sonic.

Also I would like to again say that I think Lucario needs a slightly shorter shorthop, he can no longer hit MK when hes standing with a shorthop fair, and with him jumping higher now he feels more sluggish.

I dont think I changed Lucario's SH height since 3.1, but I'll look into shortening it.

 

[Adetque]

Yeah, there are some broken combos now that need fixing. For example, Luigi's down throw to up-B. 1/3 chance of hitting it depending on how they DI.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Yeah, there are some broken combos now that need fixing. For example, Luigi's down throw to up-B. 1/3 chance of hitting it depending on how they DI.

It is DI dependent, therefore if you know how to DI his downthrow, then his upb is not a problem, however I've already done a dozen 0-death combo's with luigi lol, he can be pretty ridiculous, I would suggest giving him more aerial landing lag.

 

[Finns7]

I dont think hitstun is a problem atm, what characters are you guys playing with atm

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I dont think hitstun is a problem atm, what characters are you guys playing with atm

I believe the current hitstun is close to perfect, as long as people understand how to DI combo's won't be always 50%

Also I play Lucario.

 

[matt4300]

Ehhh, If you guys lower hitstun to accommodate some WOP and foxes and such. Other slower chars are going to completely lose there combos >_> like link and ivysar.

 

[shanus]

I doubt we will be changing it much. I like it as is, if its a problem, we fix it!

 

[Adapt]

I have been using ZSS, Ike, Spacies, MK, and Sheik in brawl+. I was shown last night now nasty DK and the Mario Bros can be.

 

[goodoldganon]

If we can't fix the tech window then hitstun needs to be lowered, if we can fix the tech window then hitstun is fine. That's my two cents.

I have to ask Shanus, what do you mean that the values you guys worked on are now thrown off by the size code? I played about 3 hours of Brawl last night with the size code and it felt great. I really didn't see anything I wasn't able to do thanks to the changes. I was also still able to jump onto every platform and move around the stage in a fluid manner.

Also, the specials are hardly noticeable at .95 (the lowest this code should go). Besides a select few characters, most specials in B+ suck anyway. Giving them a little (which I'm telling you is hardly noticeable at .95) size boost isn't suddenly breaking them. I'll try and list out what is good and bad about the code, with as little of bias as I can.

PROS

-Stages feel less cramped. The melee stages actually feel an appropriate size
-Only the really tall characters and sword users can stab well from underneath platforms. Without wavelanding platforms are a HUGE pain in Brawl, but they aren't such a detriment to be on now.
-Spreads team (and FFA) matches out.
-The defense has gotten a little weak and this code allows a player to actually get some space and recompose himself/herself.

CONS
-Characters might be able to live an extra 2-5%.
-Specials don't scale

Don't want to sound rude, but have you tried the code at .95? I'm sure you will notice even the TINIEST of changes since you guys worked so hard (and lovingly ) on all those changes, but we didn't see it last night. I said it in another topic and I'll say it here:

This code is AMAZING from team battles. Unless we plan to have a separate codeset for team battles then I really feel this code should make it in. Think we should open a poll or topic about it? Either way, I'm gonna make lunch then post my character ideas.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Here's some Lucario combo's and examples of how bad his bair is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbP2rAUGTRo

 

[Shell]

Yeah, regardless of whatever the BR decides, I will always use the .95 size code for my home team matches.

Also, 'Dorf still can't full hop on to platforms in 1.32. He's soooo close -- maybe just bump his FH up to 1.10 from 1.05?

 

[shanus]

yes goodoleganon, iplayed with it for about 2.5hrs last night, singles, ffas and teams. The A moves scale fine, however, the jump heights don't scale properly and so if we adjusted our set values, we would need to scale down by 95%. However, specials don't scale. That is a problem. That is effectively buffing every special as its a hitbox buff on all of those. More difficult to hit tornado, etc. It is a BIG dealbreaker with the code.

plain in simple, your hitboxes are smaller. The B specials are larger. This can be abused to a nasty amount. And plain and simple, it shouldn't be a case to worry about because of a cramping issue. If the stage can be increased in size (which so far seems improbable), I'm fine with it. But this code doesn't cut it.

 

[Finns7]

Without a tech code hitstun is more than fine imo...idk maybe its just me but after playing friendlies alot and getting used to the tech window (which we still do need) I dont think its extreme once you get used to it and learn the proper ways to DI certain attacks.

 

[GHNeko]

Here's some Lucario combo's and examples of how bad his bair is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbP2rAUGTRo

Pretty cool lucario. Like to combo and doesnt afraid of anything.

Those combos look DI dependent though.

 

[Greenpoe]

IMO we should avoid messing those certain features of a character that make them truly unique, and this is one such characteristic of Lucario. If there was a way to nerf something else instead to bring more of a balance, that would be preferable. Perhaps make him easier to KO so he spends less time in the danger zone? I don't know much about Lucario and his weight, so take that with a grain of salt, but you get the general idea of a workaround.

At any rate, you might prove to be completely right in that Lucario gets ridiculous combos in the red-zone. Is there a known formula to the damage increase? Your best be in selling this nerf would be to get some hard numbers for us to look at. For instance, a what a combo deals at 0% compared to a similar combo at 120%.

When Lucario's % is low, he can easily combo, but they deal low damage. At higher %'s, it becomes increasingly difficult to combo because his moves hit them further and further away. Only a few of his throws and his fair (which deals low damage) are not aura-dependant. Even his dash attack increases in knockback with higher %. I think that in general, it balances out: If someone manages to deal 60% with a combo while Lucario is at high damage, then they deserve it, because that same amount of skill could equate to a zero-death with Falcon.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Pretty cool lucario. Like to combo and doesnt afraid of anything.

Those combos look DI dependent though.

They are lol.

 

[goodoldganon]

Two questions Shanus about the size modifier:

-What exactly CAN'T (or I guess maybe now CAN) you do with changes to sizes. Once again, not trying to be rude but I'd like some specific examples.
-Which specials (sans the tornado, **** Metaknight...) can now suddenly be abused because of their larger size?

Either way, Character Issues:

-Mario: Missed techs against Mario are too detrimental. Shouldn't be a problem with fixed tech windows.

-Diddy: Diddy is just way good. His moves have virtually no lag and some mad priority. His stage control with the bananas is also too good. Maybe I'm just not good against him, but what is Diddy's weakness? I feel taking ONE of his bananas won't drastically change his game, but won't give him such powerful control.

Yoshi: Yoshi just doesn't have much going for him. He builds damage well, has a good recovery, and the eggs are good but that isn't enough. DJC would be nice, but his downsmash needs more KO potential. Also, we could consider giving him less shield drop lag instead of giving him the ability to jump out of his shield. Maybe remove him from the shieldstun code?

Wario: He's good but his downsmash is nearly useless. Speed it up, maybe? (He really doesn't need it, but it would still be nice.)

Samus: I'm gonna beat this dead horse again. She needs F-smash KO potential and the charge shot should be a stronger KO move.

D3: Remove him from the game

Pikachu: Fix the D-throw and I wouldn't mind seeing some slight lag on a connected Thunder.

Marth: His forward-b is a little too good. It's almost too good of an OoS option and besides projectiles you really can't interrupt it once it's out. The speed is fine, I think it should do a tad less damage and KB.

Snake: He's too heavy. He should be below Ganondorf at least, probably below Charizard as well. Even though you can tech the knee on the F-tilt, it still needs to be fixed. Fix his weight first then I think we can look at nerfing the KO potential on his A-jab and tilts.

Sonic: He doesn't need much momentum, but he needs some. Much like Falcon, he can get shut down with defensive heavy play and the extra aerial momentum should help his options.

 

[Finns7]

Samus doesnt need a increase in her Fsmash, She needs it in her nair, remember in melee. I kno its not melee or w/e but from her transition to brawl her nair got nerfed hardcore, I would see if you could get legit combo starters with it but its uses suck atm. I think samus is fine with her jumping truthfully, her nair and MMMMaybe Fsmash should get a lil bit of kb, that or more kb for fully charged shot, im with the nair and shot more than the Fsmash.

Samus's kill game is better offstage with her floaty nature, the Fsmash sets this up, it doesnt have to kill like ikes fsmash or ganons elbow of doom.

I agree with snake, it doesnt make any sense that he weighs as much as he does anyway.

We dont want sonic with too much, but i agree, if he has to much some of his core combo game might be gone and thats a massive D=. I dont think marths side b is a problem, there are ways to counter it and with hitstun he can interupt comboz with it but its not vb lvl where he ****in does it out of a 3 hit jab sometimes wtf.

Im still for a link upb buff, maybe making it faster oos, its lolable in vb and in+. It isnt totally needed but it completes him
...Falcon = momentum arieals, speed.....Falco = Laser, stage combo game. Link uses his projectiles and swordsman skillz to make ****, he cant rely on one alone or else he fails, his projectiles help bring in/set up ****, and his upb should finish better or be better oos. It has so much ending lag that its easily punishable if shielded and since this is +, can set him up for a **** combo to death, so its 50/50 as of now and the bad part is if you land the move, it really does nothing. His core finisher is dair, otherwise you have to usually edgegaurd your opponent after a fsmash which I dont care about.

 

[leafgreen386]

A lot of nairs got nerfed in the transition to brawl, actually >_>

It's kinda annoying, since in melee, if you had a sex kick, it was basically guaranteed to be a good move in general. In brawl, most are still useful, but not as good.

 

[Finns7]

I kno how much the sexiness got tooken away T_T, im just saying adding some kb to her nair would solve her need to increase other things that dont "define" her. She is more of a arieal homicidal rapist (AHR) than a grounded sandbox rapist (GSR)...jeez leaf u didnt kno?

 

[CT Chia]

Two questions Shanus about the size modifier:

-What exactly CAN'T (or I guess maybe now CAN) you do with changes to sizes. Once again, not trying to be rude but I'd like some specific examples.
-Which specials (sans the tornado, **** Metaknight...) can now suddenly be abused because of their larger size?

Either way, Character Issues:

-Mario: Missed techs against Mario are too detrimental. Shouldn't be a problem with fixed tech windows.

-Diddy: Diddy is just way good. His moves have virtually no lag and some mad priority. His stage control with the bananas is also too good. Maybe I'm just not good against him, but what is Diddy's weakness? I feel taking ONE of his bananas won't drastically change his game, but won't give him such powerful control.

Yoshi: Yoshi just doesn't have much going for him. He builds damage well, has a good recovery, and the eggs are good but that isn't enough. DJC would be nice, but his downsmash needs more KO potential. Also, we could consider giving him less shield drop lag instead of giving him the ability to jump out of his shield. Maybe remove him from the shieldstun code?

Wario: He's good but his downsmash is nearly useless. Speed it up, maybe? (He really doesn't need it, but it would still be nice.)

Samus: I'm gonna beat this dead horse again. She needs F-smash KO potential and the charge shot should be a stronger KO move.

D3: Remove him from the game

Pikachu: Fix the D-throw and I wouldn't mind seeing some slight lag on a connected Thunder.

Marth: His forward-b is a little too good. It's almost too good of an OoS option and besides projectiles you really can't interrupt it once it's out. The speed is fine, I think it should do a tad less damage and KB.

Snake: He's too heavy. He should be below Ganondorf at least, probably below Charizard as well. Even though you can tech the knee on the F-tilt, it still needs to be fixed. Fix his weight first then I think we can look at nerfing the KO potential on his A-jab and tilts.

Sonic: He doesn't need much momentum, but he needs some. Much like Falcon, he can get shut down with defensive heavy play and the extra aerial momentum should help his options.

i have a feeling your barely testing any of the things you are saying are wrong with the game. i could be wrong and you are, but then something isn't right here lol. these are more just opinions on making things easier, and a lot of it has already been addressed. for instance snakes ftilt deal, you can easily DI and tech it. its not a prob at all.

even though you said wario doesnt need a better dsmash per say, i mean lets face it, we dont need every move of every character to be perfectly viable. plus dsmash does have its uses. it stays out for a long time compared to most moves, etc. instead of speeding it up, giving it a tad more knockback would be a smarter thing to change.

diddy has a big problem with his recovery. without the autosweetspot, it really hurts his upB, and he was already a lil gimpable as it is. his banana game isnt too different as well, similar tactics for it needed in vBrawl work in Brawl+

as for mario, how is it so bad to miss a tech against himspecifically? r u saying we should make it easier to tech? i dont think we should... i find it good the way it is. step it up lol, get better at teching. we really shouldnt be making this game too ridiculously easy for everyone, were making it skill based and tourney viable. if theres nothing to practice or get better at, then it makes no sense essentially.

 

[leafgreen386]

i have a feeling your barely testing any of the things you are saying are wrong with the game. i could be wrong and you are, but then something isn't right here lol. these are more just opinions on making things easier, and a lot of it has already been addressed. for instance snakes ftilt deal, you can easily DI and tech it. its not a prob at all.

even though you said wario doesnt need a better dsmash per say, i mean lets face it, we dont need every move of every character to be perfectly viable. plus dsmash does have its uses. it stays out for a long time compared to most moves, etc. instead of speeding it up, giving it a tad more knockback would be a smarter thing to change.

diddy has a big problem with his recovery. without the autosweetspot, it really hurts his upB, and he was already a lil gimpable as it is. his banana game isnt too different as well, similar tactics for it needed in vBrawl work in Brawl+

as for mario, how is it so bad to miss a tech against himspecifically? r u saying we should make it easier to tech? i dont think we should... i find it good the way it is. step it up lol, get better at teching. we really shouldnt be making this game too ridiculously easy for everyone, were making it skill based and tourney viable. if theres nothing to practice or get better at, then it makes no sense essentially.

A teching code is in the works, actually. It's generally agreed the teching window in brawl is stupid. You can't tech when you press the button too close to the ground, thus it's what we believe is enabling jab locks and disabling ledgeteching. You should not have to work for teching. It's a basic command in the game. You should be the one that makes the choice not to tech, not the game doing it for you because the teching window is screwed up.

 

[ynnek123]

so...when is the PAL version coming up? I really want to give my opinions but can't >_<

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Either way, Character Issues:

-Mario: Missed techs against Mario are too detrimental. Shouldn't be a problem with fixed tech windows.

-Diddy: Diddy is just way good. His moves have virtually no lag and some mad priority. His stage control with the bananas is also too good. Maybe I'm just not good against him, but what is Diddy's weakness? I feel taking ONE of his bananas won't drastically change his game, but won't give him such powerful control.

Yoshi: Yoshi just doesn't have much going for him. He builds damage well, has a good recovery, and the eggs are good but that isn't enough. DJC would be nice, but his downsmash needs more KO potential. Also, we could consider giving him less shield drop lag instead of giving him the ability to jump out of his shield. Maybe remove him from the shieldstun code?

Wario: He's good but his downsmash is nearly useless. Speed it up, maybe? (He really doesn't need it, but it would still be nice.)

Samus: I'm gonna beat this dead horse again. She needs F-smash KO potential and the charge shot should be a stronger KO move.

D3: Remove him from the game

Pikachu: Fix the D-throw and I wouldn't mind seeing some slight lag on a connected Thunder.

Marth: His forward-b is a little too good. It's almost too good of an OoS option and besides projectiles you really can't interrupt it once it's out. The speed is fine, I think it should do a tad less damage and KB.

Snake: He's too heavy. He should be below Ganondorf at least, probably below Charizard as well. Even though you can tech the knee on the F-tilt, it still needs to be fixed. Fix his weight first then I think we can look at nerfing the KO potential on his A-jab and tilts.

Sonic: He doesn't need much momentum, but he needs some. Much like Falcon, he can get shut down with defensive heavy play and the extra aerial momentum should help his options.

Don't you dare, it's so easy to block or you can always roll dodge behind Marth, he's got a little lag when he stops it.

 

[matt4300]

I agree with GoG on so many levels besides the d3 thing and mario thing (a missed tech with mario isent nearly as bad as a missed tech against one of the high teirs such as ummm... FOX)...
But, what finnz says is what I have been thinking for samus (link mains think alike?) Nair would be such a good move if it could kill or be used for better combos, then all she would need is that Chargeshot buff. Nair would help her in so many ways its ridiculous... I'm not saying that just because it was good in melee.Right now it does so little damage and kb theres almost no reason to use it.

 

[cAm8ooo]

A missed tech with just about any character can mean jab lock, which can mean death. Fixing the teching window still lets you be greatly punished for a missed tech but is not quite as rewarding for the punisher as a free stock.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Jab lock are not super broken >_> just smash DI away from the person hitting you into the bouncing animation repeatedly, you should get out of range of most if not all jab locks.

 

[goodoldganon]

Don't you dare, it's so easy to block or you can always roll dodge behind Marth, he's got a little lag when he stops it.

Do you play with shield stun? You can't roll from it because of shield stun, can't spot dodge it, and it builds pretty good damage. It also has good KO potential. It's not breaking him, it's more of a suggestion to see how he fairs without it. Most of my balances were more suggestions to test to see what happens.

 

[Adetque]

Jab lock are not super broken >_> just smash DI away from the person hitting you into the bouncing animation repeatedly, you should get out of range of most if not all jab locks.

SDI doesn't work as well because of the reduced hitstun.

EDIT: Don't give Diddy 1 naner please. Learn to use it against him. Other characters have much stronger followups to a trip, while Diddy can't ko well. Luigi can combo trip>up-B

 

[Eaode]

SDI doesn't work as well because of the reduced hitlag.

Fixed.

10DIs

 

[CT Chia]

A teching code is in the works, actually. It's generally agreed the teching window in brawl is stupid. You can't tech when you press the button too close to the ground, thus it's what we believe is enabling jab locks and disabling ledgeteching. You should not have to work for teching. It's a basic command in the game. You should be the one that makes the choice not to tech, not the game doing it for you because the teching window is screwed up.

we shouldnt just give it more frames then, but instead move the frames where ur able to start the tech

 

[goodoldganon]

So, coders...

What are the chances that those zeros you were using as placeholders could affect momentum. It seems to be a popular opinion that it would be great to have it be individually monitored. Not even sure if it would be beneficial just throwing out ideas.

DO NOT COMMENT ON INDIVIDUAL MOMENTUM AND YOU FEELINGS. I just want an answer out of curiosity.

 

[OmniOstrich]

The shieldstun seems like it is a little intense. I feel like some moves (such as shiek's jab) can be turned into shieldbreaker combos, and you have no choice but to let it happen. The shieldstun is so huge you cant drop it, grab/attack out of it.

It also seems like some moves have waaaay more stun than others. Snake's ftilt has massive shieldstun, while G&W turtle is punishable if its not spaced properly, or if he FF it and doesn't cancel.

 

[Adetque]

The shieldstun seems like it is a little intense. I feel like some moves (such as shiek's jab) can be turned into shieldbreaker combos, and you have no choice but to let it happen. The shieldstun is so huge you cant drop it, grab/attack out of it.

^This

Every time I shield Pit's Side-B, -1 stock due to a shield break.

 

[leafgreen386]

Yeah, we've been noticing the shieldstun is too high, as well. We're employing a slightly lower shieldstun setting in the next set (the current setting is 11/22/5, and the new setting will be 10/20/5, or what may as well just be 2/4/1, aka 2x shieldstun plus 4 frames).

 

[CyberGlitch]

I complain about Mario's Up Smash because it wouldn't kill my friend's fox even when he was around 170%, IIRC. His Fsmash is an embarrassingly weak move, especially when you hit with the "Doc" part of it.

I'm a bit disheartened by peoples instant responses "you don't know how to play DK" when I complained about his incredibly predictable and mindlessly punishable recovery. I know how to space him so he lands laglessly at the apex of his Up B, this doesn't prevent it from being incredibly predictable, or punishable even when he lands laglessly. He can't us the move to go above opponents cause his laggy landing beckons for punishment. No other character has quite as much landing lag on their Up B, to my memory, besides Diddy who has an explosion to protect him.

I understand that certain levels with platforms near the edge will give him more recovery options, as he can laglessly Up B to them with good (ehem, very predictable) timing and spacing. Try to use this against someone who knows what they are doing, see how that works for you.

Shortening his landing lag wouldn't break him in any way. Just look at his landings in past Smash iterations. Seriously, this is the only major roadblock preventing him from being a viable character.


And if you still think I'm doing things "wrong," what do I do differently? If this is the case I'd truly appreciate your advice.

 

[Revven]

I'm a bit disheartened by peoples instant responses "you don't know how to play DK" when I complained about his incredibly predictable and mindlessly punishable recovery. I know how to space him so he lands laglessly at the apex of his Up B, this doesn't prevent it from being incredibly predictable, or punishable even when he lands laglessly. He can't us the move to go above opponents cause his laggy landing beckons for punishment. No other character has quite as much landing lag on their Up B, to my memory, besides Diddy who has an explosion to protect him.

I understand that certain levels with platforms near the edge will give him more recovery options, as he can laglessly Up B to them with good (ehem, very predictable) timing and spacing. Try to use this against someone who knows what they are doing, see how that works for you.

Shortening his landing lag wouldn't break him in any way. Just look at his landings in past Smash iterations. Seriously, this is the only major roadblock preventing him from being a viable character.


And if you still think I'm doing things "wrong," what do I do differently? If this is the case I'd truly appreciate your advice.

All I gotta say to this Cyber is to watch some of my DK matches. DK's recovery is fine, he has a GREAT onstage game much like Diddy Kong does, his recovery is a con to him. The only thing I'll agree to fix is his special lag, WAY too long, either needs to be gone completely or made faster. However, as a DK main, I have no troubles recovering with him unless I have no other choice but to Up B when all my jumps are gone.

Also you CAN snap his recovery, it's a certain spot on stages and it creates an "illusion" hitbox which reaches past the ledge but in the ground. I haven't looked much into this to master it but, my matches display it some times. I think DK vs. CF 4 shows it at one point. Check'em out.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I guess I should clarity, I only meant the landing lad of the Up B move.

Where can I catch your vids SMK?