The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Shell]

Big request:

Could you explain the workings of the Char specific codes in another couple days? For the meantime, it will force us to use and constructively critique the current release, but in a couple days, when we'd start making changes, I think the best way to suggest a change is to playtest it first, then suggest it to the group.

 

[wazgood]

The offstage game is definitely lacking with this codeset.

 

[plasmatorture]

What are the values used for hitstun and whatnot?

The only one that was quick to look up is that frozen/reversed stages are WW, PS2, Norfair, Mario Circuit, Spear Pillar, and Pirate Ship... why the latter two? Spear Pillar still has Hyrule Temple-esque bull**** and Pirate Ship was already a fine counterpick.

I'd also love to hear reasons why certain values and things were picked, why other things were omitted (most notably, to me, the lack of shield growth and damage adjustments), and what the opinion on custom stages for B+ is...

Anyways, thanks for releasing it and I'll give it a shot in a bit.

 

[zxeon]

ZSS' SH is still too high. She goes over peoples heads with her aerials.

 

[kupo15]

its .48 hitstun

 

[Shadic]

What are the values being used for the main codeset? I couldn't find them.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ok...here goes. I just played a few 1v1s against a human and some cpus using the characters I know best. This might seem lengthy, but I hope it helps. Oh, first let's get a faster dash speed in there please

Ganondorf: I'm glad thunderstorming is back with this codeset. Ganondorf NEEDS it. The shorter hop is nice for setting up spikes and on the stage u-airs. My biggest complaint is his fast fall and recovery. His recovery felt worse for some reason today and it was a real hindrance. What made it even worse is that his fast fall is SOOO **** fast. On one hand it's great for a fast fall air dodge to get back on the ground, where Ganondorf's strength lies. But on the other hand you can't mix up your recovery at all. A fast fall means death off the stage. This allowed my friends to gimp me quite easily with characters with a decent reach. Also, why can't Ganon ledge-hop? I can't not back off the ledge and get back on. I feel that hurts his recovery options more.

ADJUSTMENTS: Slow his fast down. 1.2 or 1.15 might be good. It keeps the whole 'Fast Fall to get to the ground' but also gives him some options off the stage. That or buff his up-b distance so he can recover after a fast fall.

Capt. Falcon: Ok he felt GREAT on the stage. U-Air on the stage is nice and his approaches with RAR'd B-airs and N-airs seemed a little stronger. But boy does he fall like a sack of a bricks. Capt. Falcons off the stage game made me wet before but now I have a lot of trouble going nearly as far out to chase someone. If we fix his up-b to not be direction dependent I think he'll be fine with these changes because otherwise he has to use his second jump to redirect himself instead of stalling out there to get a good Knee or u-air.

ADJUSTMENTS: Fix the directional Up-B nonsense and he's fine. If that can't be fixed drop his gravity to 1.1 or maybe even 1.05.

Link: He never had a strong off the stage game so I really like the new Link. The SH height is perfect for z-air spam and gives him a very good approach. Sadly it can't hit short characters but the medium to tall characters it's GREAT on. I still feel he could use a recovery buff. I might try to put that code to buff Links UP-B that Almas posted a while ago. On one note I did find myself suiciding with his d-air more. I use to be able to recover from a missed d-air when I try and predict a 'get up from the edge' move but now if I miss it's game over. High risk high reward I guess but it was still annoying. I say bring Link down to 1.1 down gravity.

ADJUSTMENT: His on the stage game is mad good so I'm hesitant to buff the recovery. Just keep it as a possibility.

Ike: The f-air approach feels a lot a better allowing for some good spacing for Ike. His recovery still sucks but I guess that's ok with how **** he is on the stage. I always thought his FF was fine in vBrawl, it's too fast now. He used to be able to FF a f-air or even a b-air but I was killing myself at least 30% of the time trying for that. Also, much like Ganondorf, Ike can't ledgehop.

ADJUSTMENT: Is it possible to let him ledge hop?

Marth: No double f-airs hurts his approach but at the same time the height is great for the 1 f-air. He places it perfectly on everyone. I noticed a full hop f-air to another f-air works but I didn't find it too helpful. Overall though he didn't feel too changed. Still felt solid.

ADJUSTMENT: He's good to go!


Snake: Ummmm maybe it's just me but the full hop and short hop heights are nearly the same on Snake. Besides for a full hop f-air (which doesn't seem like a viable approach at all) there is no reason to not just SH everything. Especially since he lost his full hop n-air. Snake seemed worse with these changes when he lost that, but maybe for balance purposes that'll be all right. Still, n-air was a good situational move but now I can't find a use for it. He will only hit with the first 3 parts of the attack until he lands, but the 3rd hit doesn't have enough stun to combo into anything. Maybe a grab, I never did try that.

ADJUSTMENT: On one hand he was too good and losing the n-air hurts, but as a avid Snake player I'll miss it. I'd like to say buff his full hop height, but let's see if this brings Snake back down to par with the others.


Wolf: I didn't feel anything terribly different about Wolf. His b-air approach seems even better thanks to a higher shorthop, but it really only made it easier to do. Wolf's recovery sucks and with the higher gravity I found I had 0 chance at a spike unless the enemy was recovering like an idiot. Do we want the d-air to be a spike or on the stage combo move?

ADJUSTMENT: He feels great still but I'll miss the spike. It felt badass to land but now I can't risk it. Buff his recovery or will that make him too good?

DK: I didn't have to change my style at all really. DK's loss of the double b-air is sad, but like Marth the single one is placed perfectly to hit the cast. His fast fall is in the same boat as Ganon's. It's nice to get back on the ground but hurts my recovery. Then again, DK's recovery is vastly superior to Ganon's so the Fast Fall might just be ok.

ADJUSTMENTS: Good to go!


Wario: Ummmm did he change?

ADJUSTMENTS: Good to go!

ZSS: I played like **** when I used her. Her jumps felt all off on me and besides for the usual u-air combos I was having trouble placing any f-air and b-airs. I only played two rounds with her, but she didn't feel right or fun at all.

ADJUSTMENTS: She needs shorter short hops still. 0.8 seems really low, but we should still try it.

OVERALL: Overall the changes have grown on me but I still have some initial complaints with the setup. This is a definite nerf to the off the stage game for much of the cast, and I'm a little sad to lose that. But most of the stage games felt great. I think this a good start but it needs some fine tweaking. I used to think most of the casts gravities were ok as they were, but seeing the work so far makes me anxious to see or work on it more.

 

[Osi]

Thanks though, its exciting to see how far Brawl + has come.

I agree, it's awesome to see brawl+ come so far there is a standard set being produced.

Falcon:

He feels a little too heavy, heavier than melee. I can't do Bair>uair in a full hop and he just feels heavy. I think he doesn't need to be that different from Vb in gravity just a shorter short hop like .9

Ike:

I can barely ledge hop aerials with him if its even possible
Can't "just" ledge hop like how ganon was

Falco:

I find it really hard to punish off the stage without killing myself using the Nair and Fair

I like falcon being heavy, and to me it's much closer to melee fall speed for him. Also it is possible to bair to up air in a full hop, but it take very close timing (I did confirm that the up air will come out enough to hit before landing on the ground).

I agree on Ike, I couldn't get any of his airs to connect on a hop up from the ledge. I could get the animation to start, but he would cancel into the ground just before it connected.

I would think falco should be hard to use a nair/fair off stage. The bair/dair are plenty of options for a second air attack. I have no issues jumping off stage to land a single fair/nair with him and getting back, but I can't find a way to land 2 off stage and really make it back. With his awesome edge guarding game I wouldn't see this as much of a issue keeping him from being viable, and the on stage benefits from his SH/grav balance it out enough for me.

INITIAL THOUGHTS:
After playing MuBa's codeset and enjoying it, this feels like molasses. I want Fun Speed!

It seems very balanced, just... slow. I don't mean to come off as ungrateful, though, I'm very thankful for the work you've all put into it. I will do my best to give this new game pace a chance.

FIRST EDIT:

In discussing the codeset, I'm sure you guys argued about the ideal buffer number. Could you summarize the reasons for 1 frame buffer? I feel that it makes things like Thunderstorming needlessly difficult. A 2 frame buffer makes this more manageable, without many (if any) more negative results. Just interested in your reasoning.

I agree on the speed thing a bit. I would love to see a slight increase on the dash speed.

For the buffer at 1 I would like to see that stay. 1 allows all the possibilities that require a buffer like thunderstorming, but make it really difficult which is a good thing to me. Also at 1 we don't see many instances of actions registering during the buffer you wouldn't want to do. A lot of the brawl+ members wanted it at 0, so 1 is a nice compromise to both sides.

I agree! I also like doing double aerials in a full hop. Im pretty sure he could do this in melee...

Falcon can still up air x2 easy in a full hop, back air x2, up air to back air, and back air to up air in a full hop. It's just kinda hard now.

I personally think a lot of the new changes just take some time getting used to. We're all mostly used to everybody falling at the same rate in B+ so naturally, our muscle instincts are trying to go faster than we should be with the new codeset. Kinda like how on the first day vB released everybody was trying to go SUPAHHHH FAASSSST and **** because of having played Melee for 7 years.

We may need a faster dash speed than 1.15 now looking at the character specific changes. Maybe even increase hitstun to .487? I dunno, I'm gonna wait before passing judgement. I gave my thoughts on what needs changing though

Whatever you do, don't have newbies try this code set, use kupo's or Mookie's for that as it's faster and will give them a good outlook on the differences between B+ and vB. That's what I'm going to do when I got to TYM if nothing is changed in this code set or if I don't get used to it anytime soon lol.

I agree a bit that they may be more impressed with a faster code set, but this one really does show off more of what is possible. While not faster... the code set clearly separates characters into classes more, and for many people that was a big negative of vbrawl (many characters felt the same when in melee they had more unique fall speeds and jumps).

I also agree on the dash speed, but just a slight increase to 1.17 or 1.18 may be all that is needed.

The hitstun seems fine to me. I have been able to connect all my normal combos, and not many seem lost with the code set changes.

It's interesting to see the mixed responses.

I'm sure you will be seeing mixed responses no matter what you guys do hehe. There are far too many differences of opinion on the internet for everyone to be happy. I like the set you all came up with. There are some small things I'd note in detail later. Here are my initial thoughts.

Falcon - Amazing! I love how he feels like a fast faller again. I would like a shorter SH personally as it makes his up air combos much better, and you can still easily land the knee as low as .8 SH.

Fox - I love you all for this one. Fox is fast and falls like he should. He is really easy to combo now on all his counters too, so his fast falling punishes him too. I have nothing negative to say on this one.

Jiggly - Another one I liked a lot. Jiggly feels so light, but doesn't have a rediculous jump height or anything. Jiggly can now wreck all fast fallers with sleep combos that are easy to land at up to 100%, so jiggly will easily be a nice counter for some characters. She is also really hard to combo with how floaty she is still while the rest of the cast is a little heavy by comparison to her which I think should be the case.

Ike - Great on stage, but can't do a aerial ledge hop onto the stage from the edge really. You can land hits from a ledge cancel and still get back with a up B... you just can't do the air attack onto the stage is all. The SH is perfect height on stage for dair combos.

Falco - I like the speed added with his SH and fall speed. He is much easier to land combos on now too.

Sheik - A little high of a SH, but I like her overall. One nice aspect of her SH is that it's the right height to SH dair from below a platform and it just barely comes out to hit right at the platform height for battlefield, so that should lead to interesting combinations.

Samus - Really fun to play as on the set. She floats still like I'd expect her to, but has really low SHs that let her combo well still.


Edit since it was posted as i wrote this-
You can still SH double fair on marth, but it's just a tight window.

 

[leafgreen386]

The fact people are saying that the offstage game is lacking with this codeset but did not think so with the 1.15 or 1.25 downgrav is interesting. It's amazing what the effect of upgrav has.

Big request:

Could you explain the workings of the Char specific codes in another couple days? For the meantime, it will force us to use and constructively critique the current release, but in a couple days, when we'd start making changes, I think the best way to suggest a change is to playtest it first, then suggest it to the group.

K. The constant write code is the one you want to modify. Each half of a line denotes one character's modifications. It's in the format of UUVWXYZ0. UU is the character ID. V is sh height. W is full jump and double jump height (yes, these are tied together). X is fast fall speed (note: this does not stack with downgrav, but it does with fullgrav). Y is downgrav (this has a multiplicative effect with full grav, so if you want a char to have lower upgrav than downgrav, you can mess with this value... I think most characters just have it set to 1.0 right now, though). Z is full grav (both up and down). 0 is just a placeholder for now, but if we find something else we want to modify there, we can.

Jump/Grav Values [29 Lines]
065A9200 000000DC
[b]0025CB60 0114F440
0235CB60 0305E440
0435CB60 0524E440
0628AC80 0735CB60
0824C440 0928AC80
0A35CB60 0B24F440
0C35CB60 0D34C440
0E35CA60 0F06E440
1145CB60 1234C440
1328AC80 1445ED40
1535CA60 1634E440
1745CA60 1825CA60
1935CB60 1A35CA60
1B35CA60 1D45CA60
1E26E640 1F34F440
2034F440 2125CB60
2238CA60 2335CA60
2534E440 2944EA40
2C28AC80 2E35CB60
2F14ED40[/b] 3F4CCCCD
3F59999A 3F666666
3F733333 3F800000
3F833333 3F866666
3F89999A 3F8CCCCD
3F900000 3F933333
3F966666 3F99999A
3FA00000 3FA66666
3FB33333 00000000

The bolded values are the character mods. The ones that start with 3F are what tells the game what value you mean in the above character modifiers. Don't mess with them. Here is a list of the values you plug into each of the slots and what actual number they correspond to. Note that a value of "4" in the character modifier does not mean "4.0," but in this list translates out to "1.0."

0: 0.80
1: 0.85
2: 0.9
3: 0.95
4: 1.0
5: 1.025
6: 1.05
7: 1.075
8: 1.1
9: 1.125
A: 1.15
B: 1.175
C: 1.2
D: 1.25
E: 1.3
F: 1.4

And here are the character IDs:

Mario	 00	
DK	 01	
Link	 02	
Samus 	 03	
Yoshi	 04	
Kirby	 05	
Fox	 06	
Pikachu	 07	
Luigi	 08	
Falcon	 09	
Ness	 0A	
Bowser	 0B	
Peach	 0C	
Zelda	 0D	
Sheik	 0E	
Clim 	 0F	
Marth	 11	
G&W	 12	
Falco	 13	
Ganon	 14	
Wario	 15	
MK	 16	
Pit	 17	
ZSS	 18	
Olimar	 19	
Lucas	 1A	
Diddy	 1B	
Chariz	 1D	
Squirt	 1E	
Ivysaur	 1F	
Dedede	 20	
Lucario	 21	
Ike     22	
ROB	 23	
Jiggs	 25	
Toony	 29	
Wolf	 2C	
Snake	 2E	
Sonic	 2F

And guys... if you think something is wrong with a character... SAY SO. Don't just say "oh, they lost this oh well." Say what you think would be better for them. Test the changes you think would be necessary for them to do everything they need to. If something feels off, don't say "well everything else is fine so it's fine." These values are not set in stone. That's why this is a beta release.

Now get to work, slaves. =p

 

[Shell]

Big thanks

 

[goodoldganon]

And guys... if you think something is wrong with a character... SAY SO. Don't just say "oh, they lost this oh well." Say what you think would be better for them. Test the changes you think would be necessary for them to do everything they need to. If something feels off, don't say "well everything else is fine so it's fine." These values are not set in stone. That's why this is a beta release.

Now get to work, slaves. =p

What exactly are you guys looking for? I'll probably be posting more 'essays' like the one I posted above if that's what you guys need but, I don't want to waste time if that wasn't helpful.

 

[Almas]

That's great ganon, thanks. And osi.

 

[grim mouser]

What is the Char Specific Launch Modifier? The lack of code descriptions is a bit confusing.

I'll test this codeset when I find time. I'll probably add in Dash Speed and stuff.

 

[leafgreen386]

What exactly are you guys looking for? I'll probably be posting more 'essays' like the one I posted above if that's what you guys need but, I don't want to waste time if that wasn't helpful.

They're great. Only thing I'd suggest to do differently would be to list what specific changes you think should be done to the character after the explanation of how you thought they played.

So, like...

Character - <explanation of how it played>
Adjustments: <list specific adjustments here>

Something like that would be helpful.

 

[goodoldganon]

I edited my post. I'll try and play some more later tonight. Is there anyone in particular you guys are really unsure of? Between myself and 4 avid B+ players we have nearly every character covered in some way.

 

[Osi]

Here are a few tweaks I'd like to see after playing on the set a bit. I list some reasons for them as well.

Falcon:
Adjustment - Short hop lower

• 
  He can't double SH air, so the height is not helpful to him like a marth character
  He can land the knee easily at .8
  At .8 a SHFFL down air just barelly come out, so it's a little faster to use mid combo
  At lower SH he can up air faster for juggle combos and is off the ground less between up airs

Fox:
Adjustment - Short hop higher

• 
  Fox can't hit from below a platform with a SH nair/dair which was good for punishments and chaining in drill combos, and also a good tactic against platform campers. A little adjustment may fix this... maybe adding even as low as .02 to the SH just so it can hit at the peak when timed right.

Out of my 3 main characters those are my only worries right now. I'm switching over to more now, and will add details as I see little stuff I'd like to see tweaked. Oh and jiggly is perfect IMO, so yea awesome job on that one.

 

[plasmatorture]

I didn't have much time to go too in depth with any one character but overall I thought it was much akin to being drowned in molasses. It's hard for me to give character specific input because it was hard to tell given the boring speed. It seemed like Marth, Squirtle, Ness, and Charizard were alright in it. Bowser seemed better but I haven't played as him in a while anyways (does he have the tank-like buffs Mookie was talking about yet?). Sheik's SH could've been shorter I think. Ledge hopped aerials were impossible as Ike and Link, and while tha thas always been the case, it seems like it should be possible. Charizard had that problem with ledge hopped bairs but I'm not sure if he could ever do them anyways.

If the overall speed could be brought back up to where it was before (my codeset is around were kupo's and mookie's are I guess) I'd have more urge to test and play it, but right now it's far too similar to vBrawl's pace.

 

[GPDP]

Amazing job, gentlemen. Unfortunately, I'm not home right now, so I can't test this codeset. But reactions are mixed so far, it seems.

If I can later, I'll try taking some of the suggestions in this thread into account, and make some modifications to see how characters feel then.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Im sad no one has mentioned kirbz yet Ill do some major testing on him later tonight and post what i think.

But im glad to see a standard as well. This is just one more big step for brawl+

 

[InterimOfZeal]

This codeset desyncs like MAD on WFC

 

[leafgreen386]

Hm... somehow, that doesn't surprise me. Do the characters feel different online than they do offline? Try doing dittos and see if they still desync. It might be due to the way wifi is loading the characters.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Jiggs- seems a bit too floaty and kinda slow too, more than what I remember, maybe if she fastfell faster it would be better, but she does combo very nicely

Peach- can't edgehop, she's sooo close to making it over the edge, but you just end up keeping the float or regrabbing the edge.

Manondorf- being a Ganon main in Melee i'm glad to see stomp after stomp again and again. His recovery does seem worse now though.

Snake- I'm sad that I can do a full hop Nair anymore.

 

[Revven]

Hm... somehow, that doesn't surprise me. Do the characters feel different online than they do offline? Try doing dittos and see if they still desync. It might be due to the way wifi is loading the characters.

I just played a ****load of matches with GS and we only desynced twice. So, I dunno what Zeal is talkin' about but our playtime was perty good.

I got experience how good DK is with his current settings and I gotta say, HE'S GOOOOOOODDDDDD. OMG Uthrow to Uair (the cargo toss one) is EVEN better now because of his flotiness. Falcon still feels (to me) like he's too heavy. Sure, I could get awesome combos but, his recovery is balls if you make one mistake. (lol if I FK off stage on accident, you can't make it back).

 

[Osi]

Jiggs- seems a bit too floaty and kinda slow too, more than what I remember, maybe if she fastfell faster it would be better, but she does combo very nicely

Peach- can't edgehop, she's sooo close to making it over the edge, but you just end up keeping the float or regrabbing the edge.

Manondorf- being a Ganon main in Melee i'm glad to see stomp after stomp again and again. His recovery does seem worse now though.

Snake- I'm sad that I can do a full hop Nair anymore.

Jiggly is a bit floaty, but that kinda fits her, and nothing looks broken by that yet. In fact that floatyness makes all her combos easier.

Peach can ledge hop actually. The timing is rough, but you can ledge hop up with a back air/up air/down air easily, and with absurd timing you can nair up too(checked and all will connect with the hitbox before landing if done right). You can also just jump up without a air too.

Yea the snake nair on a full hop gone does kinda suck... no more nade pick up full nairs, but you can still double tap jump and the nair gets out just like before. You just can't do it with a nade like before.

 

[BEES]

I'll just throw this out there again. Fall canceling jumps. Every character would get to SH at the appropriate height without having to manually tinker with them to death. Probably a lot less lines of code too.

I have to admit the launching stuff is great.

 

[GPDP]

One thing I notice, looking at the table of values, is that the global gravity is almost always higher than the full jump launch power. Doesn't this result in shorter jumps, even if they are slightly faster? Shouldn't they be increased proportionally, so as to have jumps be the same height but still execute faster?

 

[storm92]

Im sad no one has mentioned kirbz yet Ill do some major testing on him later tonight and post what i think.

But im glad to see a standard as well. This is just one more big step for brawl+

I tried him and liked what settings there were for him, as I mained him in vB and definitely can appreciate how he feels now.

 

[leafgreen386]

One thing I notice, looking at the table of values, is that the global gravity is almost always higher than the full jump launch power. Doesn't this result in shorter jumps, even if they are slightly faster? Shouldn't they be increased proportionally, so as to have jumps be the same height but still execute faster?

Gravity = small continuous downward force
Jump = large single upward force

They don't scale quite the same way you think they do.

I'll just throw this out there again. Fall canceling jumps. Every character would get to SH at the appropriate height without having to manually tinker with them to death. Probably a lot less lines of code too.

And it's a completely foreign game mechanic. No one's made any mention of this back there yet, but I highly doubt anyone is gonna agree with it.

 

[GPDP]

Gravity = small continuous downward force
Jump = large single upward force

They don't scale quite the same way you think they do.

I see. I trust you were aware of this, then, when coming up with values? Did you try to preserve the proper height of jumps?

 

[Team Giza]

So anyway I played a while with a few of my friends and started getting the hang of it. Its definitely not as bad as it first seemed but there do need to be some changes which I will get into later. Right now I just wanted to say a bit about ZSS.

Zero Suit Samus plays extremely smooth. I have been able to get some nice long juggles. Her zoning game also feels a lot better with gravity. She still has her signature tactics working as far as I can tell and her combos are just amazingly fun to watch and perform. I am having no problems combing into her Fair and Bair. Her bait and punish game is completely intact but are much more powerful.

I am going to have to disagree with most about lowering her shorthop so much. She doesn't need it. Her juggles and zoning tactics more than make up for her inability to push people with an easy shorthop Bair. I have no problem getting KOs with her so I don't think the shorter short hop is needed. Lowering it too much would mess up some of the tactics with her f+B I use as well.

Overall I say she is doing good.

 

[zxeon]

Zero Suit Samus
adjustment : Shorter Short Hop

· Her short hop sends her aerials over peoples heads. Personally I think she needs a .7 Short hop.

Captain Falcon
adjustment : Shorter Short Hop

· Same problem as ZSS You don't need a short hop that can't hit characters on the ground. I recommend a .8 short hop.



One thousand Posts!

 

[MookieRah]

I honestly think this was too early to post, but thankfully it's growing a little on everyone. I think some of the characters have gravities that are too harsh, Falcon being one of them. I think we need to tone back the gravity and readjust the shorthops to fit it and any changes that need to be made to them.

 

[BEES]

Alright, I've given the fall-canceling jump thing some more thought. This has been at the top of my mind for the past month, because I foresaw problems with implementing character-specific hop heights, and wanted to simplify it.

Normal short hops
normal full hops
No alterations from the Brawl norm would be necessary
However, if you hold down on the analog stick while jumping, the height gets cut in half. So a short hop would be a half-short hop, a full hop would be a half-full hop. This effectively creates 3 short hop heights, one of which is bound to be ideal for any given situation.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

My memory isn't working too well now, but can someone explain to me what the Character Specific Launch Modifier Does?

 

[shanus]

hi guys, been busy all weekend! glad to see some great testing going on here! Thank you all for your inputs!

 

[shanus]

Also remember, this is a BETA codeset. With your inputs, we will definitely be making a LOT of changes!

We will probably be narrowing down the gravity values to a more unified range with only slight alterations in their gravitational feel. The more we hear, the better!

 

[Yeroc]

Some of my own findings:

ZSS - I'm thinking she needs to be overall slightly more floaty, or slightly less. As a reference point, and I don't know if you guys did this intentionally, but her double uair is frame perfect now (and only the very first hitbox of the 2nd one even comes out), and I think that's a horrible idea. It was easier to do than Marth's sh fairs normally, so why make it so hard? If you're gonna make her able to do it at all, then don't make it impossible to do in an actual match.

However, after playing MuBa's codeset I'm inclined to believe that she doesn't actually need it at all. So I'd personally propose a modest increase in gravity, and maybe a very slight decrease in shorthop height to accompany that. If the values in leaf's post are still accurate, I'd recommend 1.175 grav and then maybe .9 sh height after testing that. Oh, and she needs a faster fast fall. 1.1-1.125 at least.

 

[Shell]

I haven't a ton of testing, but Yeroc's suggestions for ZSS seem about right.

 

[matt4300]

Crap, I realy wish I had my SD card right now... Hopefully I will get it back tomarow.
Im gonna do some serious Link, Bowser, and Samus testing... Btw have any of the char specific buffs like, links on stage buff, bowsers tanking buff, or samuses kill moves buff been made or included yet?

 

[leafgreen386]

@Yeroc: The Cape messed with ZSS's values quite a bit, although I think he said she could use some more tweaking. I believe he was testing with 10 buffer like the rest of us, just to see if stuff was possible, which is probably how it wound up as a frame perfect tech. I'm not sure how accurate the values in the first post are (since some of the later updates never got added to the list... ie. ganon has a sh of 1 now, but it says .95), but you should be able to check what the values being used correspond to fairly easily using the list in my post around 30 or so posts back.

@matt: no