The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Shell]

If you're aiming for accessibility, why would you see what's possible with a 10-frame buffer when you know you're only going to have a 1-frame buffer?

 

[GPDP]

I think we need to more or less establish what values for gravity and launch power correspond to create jumps that are the same height as usual. It appears to be the case that the values are not directly proportional (i.e. a .1 increase in gravity and a .1 increase in launch power will generate a taller jump than usual, so the launch power increase must be less than the gravity increase). However, the way the values are set up right now, the launch power is usually .1 less than the gravity, and I doubt that's correct for every gravity value.

 

[shanus]

I think we need to more or less establish what values for gravity and launch power correspond to create jumps that are the same height as usual. It appears to be the case that the values are not directly proportional (i.e. a .1 increase in gravity and a .1 increase in launch power will generate a taller jump than usual, so the launch power increase must be less than the gravity increase). However, the way the values are set up right now, the launch power is usually .1 less than the gravity, and I doubt that's correct for every gravity value.

Tomorrow I'm aiming to make a much less dispersed gravity set to test it against this set and hopefully reinvorgate the edge game a bit while preserving some faster paced gameplay / combos.

Short hops and Full Hops adjusted as necessary. I'll try and keep some of these comments in mind, but a million posts with adjustments will be hard to follow .


Thanks for all the input guys!

 

[The Cape]

For all you ZSS SH lowering peeps. LEARN TO FF AND AIM AERIALS.

Her game is beautiful with this SH, in my opinion it may actually be too low.

Her SH needs to be higher. And I practiced at 0 buffer. I know how hard all this crap is :-p

 

[Osi]

I'll have much more info on the characters I don't play tomorrow. I'm going to have my other crew members hop on this set and post thoughts on at least marth, lucario, peach, PT, and maybe wolf since they use those a lot.

 

[Shell]

It looks like you're heading in a good direction. Best of luck.

Also, I think the "strangeness" of the set comes from the use of Upward gravity in many instances as opposed to the downward gravity that we have become so used to. You may have noticed that Up grav drastically affects the trajectories of KB as compared to comparable amounts of Down grav. I don't know if this is good or bad, I'm just pointing out that it contributes to the "whack" factor many mentioned. If you don't follow me, experiment with only up grav, then only down grav. I'm rambling now. Sorry.

 

[The Cape]

Hitstun needs to go back to what it was, we reduced it a bit much.

 

[plasmatorture]

I played some more, it's still a bit slow feeling but not as bad. Still not acceptable I don't think, but it's playable.
Shield grow and shield damage adjustments need to be included.

Lucario and ZSS's short hops are too high. Way too high. Fox falls too fast. Metal Knight, Diddy, Kirby, Luigi, G&W, DK, Yoshi, and Pikachu were all fine. Ganondorf was playable to me for the first time since melee (where he was basically tied with Marth as my best character), so that's pretty awesome. I think that's everyone I went through in "round 2". I posted other impressions earlier if you're keeping track of me.

For all you ZSS SH lowering peeps. LEARN TO FF AND AIM AERIALS.

Her game is beautiful with this SH, in my opinion it may actually be too low.

Her SH needs to be higher. And I practiced at 0 buffer. I know how hard all this crap is :-p

Why should ZSS be the only cast member who SHs over Bowser and whiffs every atack without extra special aim? What's the point of adjusting any SHs at all, then?

 

[Dan_X]

I'll have to check this out with my friend next I have a chance to do so. Unfortunately, given our current class agendas, we won't have time to check this stuff out until at least a few days.

P.S. Cape, eek. I'd hate to see hitstun lowered to much. I know we don't use %s anymore, but what %is it? That's how I understand it because we used %s for so long.

 

[Blank Mauser]

ZSS doesn't always NEED to always use Fair and Bair to approach. A higher short hop means double Uairs, and she just aerial combos differently.

 

[goodoldganon]

Round 2...

Now, here's two cents on a few more characters I had some play time with.

Fox: I think I'm in the minority here, but I wasn't a fan of the new Fox. Sure he can combo like a madman, but he himself is way to easy to combo. His Fire Fox seems to be worse and not cover as much distance. An accidental aerial from being pushed off the side = death. Really I just felt he was way to heavy, like Capt. Falcon.

SOLUTION: Whatever Falcon's final gravity is we should make that Fox and probably Falco's as well. All 3 of them felt obscenely heavy.

Mario: His recovery is still balls but he still combos very well. The slight increase in his fast fall is appreciated for stringing combos together. The changes weren't major to Mario, but I felt he ran a bit smoother.

SOLUTION: Ship him as he is.

Game and Watch: The shorter short hops buff his b-air recovery and the faster fast falls increase his SHFFing game. The thing is, did G+W need buffs? Snake was great before, but he isn't as good with this 'patch' it seems odd that G+W would get better.

SOLUTION: Slow G+W's Fast Fall speed at least 1.1 maybe even 1.05. Also, highten his Short Hops. I think a return to 1 is good.

ROB: ROB felt like a lot of fun. The gyro sets up into nice combos and the higher gravity on him makes his aerials a better approach. On another tangent, ROB's B-air seems to be giving him a lot more pushback distance. Maybe I haven't played ROB enough, but I could have swore it... A buff to ROB's recovery?! THIS IS MADNESS!

SOLUTION: ROB feels really good. His higher gravity gives him a solid, more well rounded on the stage game, but also keeps his WOP game.

Samus: The higher gravity, faster falls, and shorter short hops are fantastic. Her d-air combos very well and SHFF Z-airs are a great spacer and approach. Maybe I was way off on the timing, but I was having trouble bomb jumping on the higher gravities. The bomb just wasn't fast enough to reach me or it would hit me off at bizarre angles. The bomb jump wasn't as phenomenal in vBrawl as it was in Melee, but lost techs are sad sight still.

SOLUTION: Samus feels great. Don't change a thing with her gravities. Let's get her that kill move!

Toon Link: The shorter short hop helped me B-air combo short characters which is really nice but otherwise he felt very similar. His recovery is still really solid so the faster fast falls help at mixing up his air speed for some crazy off the stage antics. Tink might be one of the best off the stage characters and gimpers thanks to the other nerfs to some characters off the stage game. (We need an abbreviation for that. If there is one, what is it?)

SOLUTION: A 0.9 shorthop would be nice to scoop up those last few short, tough to hit characters, but it isn't necessary.

Sheik: The higher short hop felt awkward. Really Sheik felt very foreign to me. I even played a good few rounds. Besides for the F-tilt lock, what was wrong with the Sheik we had been playing with on Kupo's set?

SOLUTION: Sheik felt more fluid in Kupo's set. Her hops felt a tad too high and she fell a tad too fast, hurting my gimp game.



Besides for Sonic, Bowser, and Falco I'm out of characters I have good, extensive experience with. As an overall comment on the whole code I'll say this:

It has it's pros and cons. If everyone had a dollar for every time I talk about the off the stage game SWF would be rich, but I have to reiterate it. If we want only a choice few to have good chasing games that's fine and I'd understand to help differentiate the cast. (Ganon going that far out was absurd if you think about it )

Also, the game just feels like my characters are wearing iron boots. The all run a lot slower then what I had before and fast falls for many of the characters feel too fast and some regular fall speeds are quite absurd too. On the stage games work very well for much of the cast with these changes (some really nice combos going on) but I feel recovery and aerial combat have suffered for that. We are getting dangerously close to loosing the original essence of vBrawl and that might be a turn off to some.

 

[The Cape]

Thing is, ZSS's SH is great for her combo and pursuit game. She was one of my mains in vBrawl and in this and honestly the higher SH is to her advantage. Lucario's SH is as low as we can go and still allow fair > dair or nair. It works great.

Also:
Mario's bair whiffed on a standing luigi on a SH. We need to lower his SH.

 

[Shell]

Then he will be unable to double uair, right? It seems pretty hard as is.

 

[goodoldganon]

I rather maintain Mario's double u-airs and force people to fast fall his b-air or throw it out a tad later.

 

[The Cape]

Its called being sarcastic.

That is the ONLY reason people keep saying ZSS SH needs to be shortened. They give no thought to the rest of her game.

 

[goodoldganon]

Sarcasm translates poorly over the internet. Reading your post I feel I should have seen that sarcasm.

 

[shanus]

I'll produce a new codeset tomorrow afternoon all! It'll be less ironboots too!

 

[Yeroc]

I see what you're saying Cape, but I don't see a problem with tweaking it down just a little bit.

Some preliminary values for people to try, on ZSS and Falcon. Here they are embedded in the full code to keep things simple:

065A9200 000000DC
008664A0 0114F440
026A64A0 0305C460
046764A0 0534E440
066844D0 07666480
0824C460 097D83C0
0A6664A0 0B34F440
0C3664A0 0D34C460
0E666480 0F6664A0
116865A0 1234C460
133844D0 1444ED40
1534C460 1634E440
17666480 1837A4B0
196664A0 1A6664A0
1B3664A0 1D64C460
1E666640 1F34F440
2034F440 213664A0
226B64A0 236664A0
2534E440 2934C440
2C5747A0 2E6C6490
2F24DD40 3F4CCCCD
3F59999A 3F666666
3F733333 3F800000
3F833333 3F866666
3F89999A 3F8CCCCD
3F900000 3F933333
3F966666 3F99999A
3FA00000 3FA66666
3FB33333 00000000

 

[Shell]

You should collaborate with MuBa. Lulz.

 

[goodoldganon]

It's late and I have class for a decent chunk of the day tomorrow or I'd test your code Yeroc. I'd love to help but I'm just gonna lurk the internet for another bit and go to bed.

Can't wait for the new codeset Shanus. This beta was a promising experience!

 

[The Cape]

Leave ZSS alone. Geez, she plays excellently. Everyone wanthing to reduce her SH, do you even play her as one of your best chars?

 

[plasmatorture]

Its called being sarcastic.

That is the ONLY reason people keep saying ZSS SH needs to be shortened. They give no thought to the rest of her game.

Really?
I was also talking about how her Fair and Nair whiff, not just her Bair.

I fail to see how sacrificing several approaches for double uairing is overall better for her game. It sounds to me like you're the one being short sighted.

 

[Yeroc]

She's pretty much my only character. And I changed 2-3 things no more than one number up or down. Dang son, have a cow.

 

[zxeon]

ZSS needs a shorter SH. If she is going to SH that high off the ground you might as well do a full jump and FF it.

 

[The Cape]

She's pretty much my only character. And I changed 2-3 things no more than one number up or down. Dang son, have a cow.

Thing is, the most often thing I hear about all this. Is that her SH misses characters everytime.

Nothing about ANY other part of her game. Giza and I at least think she plays great as she is because she is combo heavy and pursuit happy, which her SH compliments.

Her high SH aerials help to counter attack other air hits and her good air control keeps her out of sheild grab range. She has lots of options and I personally think a lower SH will destroy the character. Its not just about double uair, its about her pursuit and combo game mostly.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

could you guys fix falco's full hop? it's supposed to be like he's soaring into the air but it's short now :|

 

[The Cape]

I actually complained about Falco too. I actually had to raise it almost three levels already and it still sucks.

This beta set has its issues and we are already looking into fixing it.

 

[Yeroc]

Give me a second and I'll take a look at it.

Disregard my Falcon code, he feels awesome on the stage but he's not so great once he's off it, and I still haven't fixed the 2 air fullhop problem.

Cape: I more or less agree with the principles of what you're saying. I wasn't advocating any kind of drastic reconfiguration. The code I just posted is a very mild change, one that I think adds a touch of speed to the properties you outlined without taking too much away from them as they are. She still has a rather high sh, and I'd say her full jumps are normal, she just goes up and down a little faster more or less.

 

[goodoldganon]

I heard the codes were hard to reverse.

Sorry I don't want to sound sarcastic to all the hard work you guys did!

Anyway, if it's a community project let's try the shorter SHs. I'm no ZSS main but I can see both sides of the argument from casual play as her. If it 'destroys' the character we can change it back.

 

[Team Giza]

I am in full agreement with the Cape on this and not only for her pursuit and combo game. The higher shorthop gives her more uses with the side+B that I wouldn't want to lose. She plays beautifully right now. Cape did a great job fine tuning her gravity and shorthop settings. It might need to go through a little bit of fixing later on but it seems pretty solid right now.

I have tried her out at lower shorthops before and though its fun for awhile her game seems to become quite stale and less effective than it is when they are higher. I'll test out the lower shorthops in Yeroc's settings soon to see if I feel differently about it with all the other changes.

 

[kupo15]

Tomorrow I'm aiming to make a much less dispersed gravity set to test it against this set and hopefully reinvorgate the edge game a bit while preserving some faster paced gameplay / combos.
!

The weird thing is that I went back to my code set to try it out and it felt much faster on stage...

 

[maticMan94]

Maybe there's something wrong with my copy/paste but Samus doesn't feel at all like she has 0.8 short hops. In Muba's set short hops were set at .825 and it was much shorter than what I'm getting now. Her short hops need to be shorter.

The gravity seems a little heavy on Yoshi. I didn't really notice til I tried throwing eggs from the ledges....scary.

Also I'm still not sold on the buffer of 1. I've been using it since it was first introduced and it's never felt quite right. It's not terrible but it does make me miss an extra combo hit or causes me to die on occasion. I would like something higher, 5 frames or so. I know I'm a minority on that but I've more than given it a fair shot.

That's all for now, but overall this set feels pretty good.

 

[shanus]

The weird thing is that I went back to my code set to try it out and it felt much faster on stage...

I'm not sure why that would be. Maybe the code is causing some form of lag but I doubt it :O

 

[kupo15]

I'm not sure why that would be. Maybe the code is causing some form of lag but I doubt it :O

Im not sure either. Give it a try and see for yourself.

 

[The Cape]

Everyone wants a better buffer, but we cant fix it beyond 1 right now

Samus SH isnt too bad if you fastfall. She has the fastest FF right now with DDD, DK, Bowser, and Ivysaur.

 

[goodoldganon]

MuBas codeset is at a 1.25 gravity while Samus is only 1.05 on this set. That probably explains why you think she is floatier or what not matic. I felt she was fine...

I also agree about the buffer matic. 10 was too much but 1 and 0 are far too restricting.

 

[Yeroc]

So, a clarification: What happens when I put downgrav below 1? Does it act as a reduction on overall grav, but doesn't take effect until actually falling?

 

[shanus]

Try this value with Falcon (really rough, just trying to get rid of Iron boots and seeing if scaling this way works)

09258A80

 

[The Cape]

So, a clarification: What happens when I put downgrav below 1? Does it act as a reduction on overall grav, but doesn't take effect until actually falling?

Down grav is the speed you fall downwards. I would assume that it would just make you even floatier. If you went as low as 0 you wouldnt be able to go down.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd love to help test for this late in the night for you Shanus, but where do I put that line? (Yes, I'll just sleep in class). It's a gravity modifier right? Not a launch?